If ID is a theory

[MQTA]

I'm well aware of Dolly's death. As aware as I am that you have STILL not provided any evidence. Unless, of course, Dolly's death is your evidence. Is it?

If so I point you to telomeres.

No, not her death, I didn't really pay attention to that. I mean that they created her using DNA. We're at that level of understanding and learning more and more as time goes on. So these guys are claiming that that is how we were created and they have 25,000 years more experience than we do. I'm not making this claim, they are, the ones who say they are our creators, the ones we called elohim, yahweh, and all the rest. I don't know what to believe, it's no more hokey than anything else. But what they're saying seems to have some merit. Quite spooky. I didn't just dismiss Christianity when I was told all this supernatural and strange sounding ideas, and it always seemed like they were talking a different language even though it was the same words. So who really knows... but some day may find out more.. if anyone's claims can be backed up, it would surely be theirs.

But it's not for me to prove anything. I'm only looking at this stuff also and commenting what I'm getting from it, now. If you want to see what I saw, go read it yourself or just dismiss it out of hand, I don't care. I'm glad I Read it though... and now I'm wonder what comes next. It's easy to dismiss and laugh... but their commentary sure makes most all of the bible, koran and bom make more sense. it's just their point of view and things that applied to them, supposedly so we can recognize them when they come to us in the 21st century.. well, here we are.. and since WWII we're seeing things a lot different.

It's like the twilight zone theme is playing in the background suddenly. I still don't really know what to make of it. So I invite you all to read it and tell me how it's bs. IN the mean time, I'm still reading more and more.

I decided to read the BoM... I read some here and there.. I'm up to 1 Nephi 14 now.

What do you make of 1 Nephi 11:11?

11:11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof -- for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

He looked like a man, he talked like a man, but he knew because of where they were that he was a Spirit of the Lord, so no, he couldn't have been a man... but these guys are saying, yeah, he was one of the Elohim, referred to as Angels of the Lord also.

So the jury is still out... I'm reading to see how it looks differently with their idea... but I didn't write the idea, it's not my claims at all. I saw the talk about ID, said the same things you did, someone suggested watching the videos and then I jumped into the ebook. Totally unexpected

 

[MQTA]

Like the answer to where, when, how, and why God may or may not be entered into a scientific explanation. Or how theisms, rational thought, reason, and science and co-exits. I guess if you really wanted to stick it with a label it would be a theological ethic of science, thus not a ‘science’ yet an idea and questions of which scientist should concern them selves with. Not sure if you have read this one yet but this would be a good example of the implications.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2560106-idism-and-yec-are-bad-kidsmmmk.html

One Love

Actually, they're saying we mistook them for all the ideas we nowadays have of God(s). They're saying they're our creators, and the creators, through DNA, of all the animals and vegetation that ever was on this planet. They say they found the planet 25000 years ago and it was all water and clouds. They thought it was the right distance to support life, so they ran some tests "and saw that the light was good". Then they did some terraforming. They dug out the 'firmament' below the waters, and all the waters went into it like a bathtub drain, and then 'the dry land appeared'... where there wasn't any digging/terraforming done.

They say quite a lot in 390 pages, the rest you can easily see opening up any of the books after understanding who they're saying the Cast of Characters in the books are, and what some of the things seen and described. Like Jonah's big fish or whale was a submarine. I never heard that one before. the texts make sense if it were a submarine, so why not? coulda been. sure makes more sense than not suffocating for 3 days and talking to 'someone' inside the belly of a whale.

If there's 'something to it', shouldn't it be researched some? it's a very strange concept, isn't it. hard to swallow, eh? but wow.. What If I don't know.. I haven't made any decisions, it just makes more sense than all the apologetics to what is traditionally considered to be the meaning of passages

they explain how we went from the pangea to continents, and the tectonic plates, and even noah's ark, being a space ship, not a boat ship, that had all 7 races, including noah's family, plus all the animals.. in DNA form, stored on there, too. the deluge wasn't caused by water, it was them destroying all the life they created on the planet. they were originally going to just do the whole planet, but Enoch, who was already with them, changed their mind and the 7 different creation teams of the races still had the dna. after the planet attack was over, no more pangea, no more life, they had to start it all up again once the radiation was gone. there's a lot more to it, they explain it away quite feasibly.. knowing what we know now. who would consider that? but it sounds a whole lot better than all of creation alive, eating and excreting on a Boat.. that's a little far fetched. years ago, this idea would be too.. but not today... we've imagined much more bizarre things than that idea.

Whatever... even if it's sci fi.. sure is something to consider

 

[MQTA]

Those words don't even make sense. Could you repeat it please?

If it's what I think it is then my response is that you're misunderstanding the limits of science. To the best of my knowledge, we cannot discover the nature of god using scientific methods.

That's true. But if we were created by other beings (who also say they were created by other beings before them, which they discovered after they created us that that was how they came to be), then all the mystery can be resolved, leaving just DNA and another 46 chromosomed race who can live forever by cloning with all memory and they naturally live 700-1000 years.

which is why they say before noah, all this high ages... 930 for Adam.. after noah they sped up our dna so our span is one less zero... 70-100.. which we're first starting to get back to nowadays... even 100 years ago people weren't making it to the 60s.. environmental factors.

they're saying it's all written or us to see, now that we've come into the golden age of scientific understanding. and it comes down to dna and cloning. and apparently they do play favorites. the claim is moses, jesus, buddha, elijah, enoch, and on an on, are with them, living as described, eternal lives, and they'll all come back when we're ready to accept them for who they are. they know it's quite a shock that our origins are totally not what we think.

if it's all bs, they got a good gimmick to make all the texts point to what they're explaining in the ebook

http://www.rael.org/download.php?view.1

They're not saying ID is a theory, they're saying it's cold hard fact


We were created in their image and likeness, that's their story, and they stick to it

 

[MQTA]

None of this is evidence that aliens came here 20,000 years ago (or whenever), terra-formed the earth and created life here.

Where is the evidence for any of this? I could provide you with just as much evidence for little invisible pink faires doing the same. I can't understand why you find this AID stuff so persuasive.

Yeah, me neither, before I read it, before I ever heard of them... although, I have heard of them, I Just never paid them much attention before. when CF was down I noticed it and read it all through

now I just can't help see what I see, I don't know how it happened, but it did. I'm sorry.

I posted the link to the ebook, feel free to read what I read, then you'll know what I know from it

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

No, not her death, I didn't really pay attention to that. I mean that they created her using DNA. We're at that level of understanding and learning more and more as time goes on. So these guys are claiming that that is how we were created and they have 25,000 years more experience than we do. I'm not making this claim, they are, the ones who say they are our creators, the ones we called elohim, yahweh, and all the rest. I don't know what to believe, it's no more hokey than anything else. But what they're saying seems to have some merit. Quite spooky. I didn't just dismiss Christianity when I was told all this supernatural and strange sounding ideas, and it always seemed like they were talking a different language even though it was the same words. So who really knows... but some day may find out more.. if anyone's claims can be backed up, it would surely be theirs.

They created her with an entire nucleus and an egg. We didn't produce anything, but changed them about. I think you're exaggerating what we achieved here. It has very little to do with our knowledge of DNA and much more to do with our knowledge of embryos.

It's like the twilight zone theme is playing in the background suddenly. I still don't really know what to make of it. So I invite you all to read it and tell me how it's bs. IN the mean time, I'm still reading more and more.

I can tell you that your interpretations of it revolve around bs and misunderstandings of science.

What do you make of 1 Nephi 11:11?

11:11 And I said unto him: To know the interpretation thereof -- for I spake unto him as a man speaketh; for I beheld that he was in the form of a man; yet nevertheless, I knew that it was the Spirit of the Lord; and he spake unto me as a man speaketh with another.

He looked like a man, he talked like a man, but he knew because of where they were that he was a Spirit of the Lord, so no, he couldn't have been a man... but these guys are saying, yeah, he was one of the Elohim, referred to as Angels of the Lord also.

So the jury is still out... I'm reading to see how it looks differently with their idea... but I didn't write the idea, it's not my claims at all. I saw the talk about ID, said the same things you did, someone suggested watching the videos and then I jumped into the ebook. Totally unexpected

How about you read a book on evolutionary biology and run a genetic analysis across life forms on Earth. It will quickly become clear that we share our genetic history with many other animals and that these genetic changes could not have occured in 25,000 years.

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

They're not saying ID is a theory, they're saying it's cold hard fact

To be a fact you have to have undeniable evidence.

I'll repeat it: you have still not provided any.

3 books written thousands of years ago don't count as an acceptable amount of evidence in scientific circles.

Evolution has an amazingly large amount of DNA evidence and we know we have been here for more than 25,000 years. You haven't even noted these points.

 

[Tomk80]

To be a fact you have to have undeniable evidence.

I'll repeat it: you have still not provided any.

3 books written thousands of years ago don't count as an acceptable amount of evidence in scientific circles.

Evolution has an amazingly large amount of DNA evidence and we know we have been here for more than 25,000 years. You haven't even noted these points.

Not thousands of years ago:

In “Message from the Designers�? Rael presents us with a third option: that all life on earth was created by advanced scientists from another world. During a UFO encounter in 1973 he was dictated a series of messages, face to face, by one of these designers. The result is what lies within these pages - an astonishing revelation for mankind.

 

[MQTA]

To be a fact you have to have undeniable evidence.

I'll repeat it: you have still not provided any.

3 books written thousands of years ago don't count as an acceptable amount of evidence in scientific circles.

Evolution has an amazingly large amount of DNA evidence and we know we have been here for more than 25,000 years. You haven't even noted these points.

I gave you the link, ask them to provide it. I'm only parroting what I think I read and got out of their books. I'm just relaying, as a reporter. If you want to debunk it, I'll listen. That's what I'm looking for, now. That is is, just all BS.

Give reading it a shot and see what you thnk. I have never talked about this before, in CrEvo. But before CF went down there was mention of it, and while it was down I got the link I posted above, and since CF was down, I started to read it. Took me 3 days to read it and check out what they're saying.

I want the same BS assessment as you do, but I Read it and I don't have anything. I got nothing. I can't prove it, they can... until then it's just someone's bizarre idea.. but he has quite a bit of interesting information. Which NOW, for me, seems to make those books make some sense.. the implications aren't just trash any more, there's something to compare it to.

I really haven't spent much time in this forum, I've been in GA mostly since I joined here in 04. This is a shocking twist, brand new, I just found out about it. I ain't got nothing to prove... I wouldn't want to consider it either.. this is so unexpected.

Just another in a long line of possibilities. but none of them really claimed to be The One before. This is direct, not supposition, not observation, not snapshots with assumptions, not semantical dancing, it's direct. they use no uncertain terms

Whatever.. I'm outta here for now. Nice chatting

 

[MQTA]

Not thousands of years ago:

the encounter with this guy was 1973, yes. they say they found the planet 25000 years ago, spent 12000 years creating this and creating that, until they finally decided to try to make a man, in their image and likeness, and apparently they did, if they are who they say they are. this guy is saying he has information directly frrom our creators, the elohim, not an/the immaterial being who created the sun and the planet and the moon, but beings quite scientifically advanced who used this planet for learning and experimenting. they say they created us from dna and tell their whole story saying now with our recent strides in science we can now understand what they did and who they really are and what they've accomplished.

who knows what kind of pandora's box this is.

well, whatever.. as I said in the post above, I'm done for a while. nice chattin'

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

I gave you the link, ask them to provide it. I'm only parroting what I think I read and got out of their books. I'm just relaying, as a reporter. If you want to debunk it, I'll listen. That's what I'm looking for, now. That is is, just all BS.

Give reading it a shot and see what you thnk. I have never talked about this before, in CrEvo. But before CF went down there was mention of it, and while it was down I got the link I posted above, and since CF was down, I started to read it. Took me 3 days to read it and check out what they're saying.

I want the same BS assessment as you do, but I Read it and I don't have anything. I got nothing. I can't prove it, they can... until then it's just someone's bizarre idea.. but he has quite a bit of interesting information. Which NOW, for me, seems to make those books make some sense.. the implications aren't just trash any more, there's something to compare it to.

I really haven't spent much time in this forum, I've been in GA mostly since I joined here in 04. This is a shocking twist, brand new, I just found out about it. I ain't got nothing to prove... I wouldn't want to consider it either.. this is so unexpected.

Just another in a long line of possibilities. but none of them really claimed to be The One before. This is direct, not supposition, not observation, not snapshots with assumptions, not semantical dancing, it's direct. they use no uncertain terms

Whatever.. I'm outta here for now. Nice chatting

I'm up to my neck in text books. There's no point reading something that is clearly irrational as I simply have better things to do.

You keep repeating how it's a "shocking twist" and "unexpected", yet the only shocking thing about it is how an otherwise intelligent person is taking it seriously. The only way this explanation could make sense of the evidence is if you aren't aware of the evidence, and thus can't see the contradictions.

You want us to disprove a 320page book that is almost certainly not worth reading. Do you understand the problem here?

 

[AnEmpiricalAgnostic]

the encounter with this guy was 1973, yes. they say they found the planet 25000 years ago, spent 12000 years creating this and creating that, until they finally decided to try to make a man, in their image and likeness, and apparently they did, if they are who they say they are. this guy is saying he has information directly frrom our creators, the elohim, not an/the immaterial being who created the sun and the planet and the moon, but beings quite scientifically advanced who used this planet for learning and experimenting. they say they created us from dna and tell their whole story saying now with our recent strides in science we can now understand what they did and who they really are and what they've accomplished.

who knows what kind of pandora's box this is.

well, whatever.. as I said in the post above, I'm done for a while. nice chattin'

Oh man. I left this thread awhile ago thinking it had run it’s course and you were joking about this stuff. If you are serious then I feel it necessary to post my official response…

BAD SEEKER! *puts MQTA’s nose in the steaming pile or raelianism* Now go think about what you’ve done here.

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

the encounter with this guy was 1973, yes. they say they found the planet 25000 years ago, spent 12000 years creating this and creating that, until they finally decided to try to make a man, in their image and likeness, and apparently they did, if they are who they say they are. this guy is saying he has information directly frrom our creators, the elohim, not an/the immaterial being who created the sun and the planet and the moon, but beings quite scientifically advanced who used this planet for learning and experimenting. they say they created us from dna and tell their whole story saying now with our recent strides in science we can now understand what they did and who they really are and what they've accomplished.

who knows what kind of pandora's box this is.

well, whatever.. as I said in the post above, I'm done for a while. nice chattin'

Did they create all other homo species?

And the primates?

Did they put the long line of fossils there too?

It doesn't make sense of the evidence.

 

[MQTA]

Did they create all other homo species?

And the primates?

Did they put the long line of fossils there too?

It doesn't make sense of the evidence.

I thought you didn't want to talk about it any more? I'm just typing as if we were sitting in a coffee shop shooting the breeze, I make no claims of belief, or the person who wrote those books.



Yes, they [say they] created everything but homo sapiens, in the order as written in genesis.

I kinda get the idea they spent 12000 years doing all that before they created us in their image and likeness from their own dna. the other creations are different from us, none of them are like them, so not like us.

they explain the fossils and dinosaurs and how we went from all water and clouds to one land mass (pangea) and then with the noah story, the continents. they explain why there's marsupials on australia and never 'popped up' anywhere else.. all of it, they explain all of it.

if you ever heard any other explanation you probably couldn't say "well, ok, maybe".. well, I couldn't, anyway. but their story.. yeah, I can say "ok, maybe"

I'm not saying this is IT, but wow, what if it is? that's more wild than anything I ever saw on tv, from hollywood or my wildest imaginations...

Since he's French, and since this happened in 1973 and 1975... I wonder... I wonder if The Coneheads from SNL (77? 79?) was making fun of HIM! They always said in that helium type voice "We are from France". LOL.

 

[Erock83]

BAD SEEKER! *puts MQTA’s nose in the steaming pile or raelianism* Now go think about what you’ve done here.

Translation

DON’T SMOKE CRACK

 

[MQTA]

oh that's nice. very revealing. thanks.

well, I guess it's back to totally disbelieving Jesus ever existed.

oh well.

 

[Phred]

Ya scared me MQ!

 

[DevotiontoBible]

And neither can you. God doesn't explain this. The only acceptable answer I have is "I don't know".
Good morning.

ID doesn't use God as an explanation for the Designer. Sound logic, without using any religious teachings, stops at an intelligent designer for explaining the cosmos instead of random chance. ID is like solving a murder; you have a dead body that didn't die of natural causes and you conclude murder...but you don't know WHO did it.

 

[Phred]

ID doesn't use God as an explanation for the Designer. Sound logic, without using any religious teachings, stops at an intelligent designer for explaining the cosmos instead of random chance. ID is like solving a murder; you have a dead body that didn't die of natural causes and you conclude murder...but you don't know WHO did it.

Then please provide a scientific definintion of the Theory of Intelligent Design. Saying you will study until you don't know and then say "goddidit" just perpetuates a perimeter of ignorance.

 

[DevotiontoBible]

Then please provide a scientific definintion of the Theory of Intelligent Design. Saying you will study until you don't know and then say "goddidit" just perpetuates a perimeter of ignorance.

What do you mean by a scientific definition of ID?

 

[TeddyKGB]

ID doesn't use God as an explanation for the Designer. Sound logic, without using any religious teachings, stops at an intelligent designer for explaining the cosmos instead of random chance. ID is like solving a murder; you have a dead body that didn't die of natural causes and you conclude murder...but you don't know WHO did it.

You cannot construct a logical argument for an intellingent designer that has unimpeachable premises. You can try, but you will fail.