if Harry Potter were real he would be going to hell

[LinuxUser]

Words do have meaning. God detests astrology and the performances of seances to contact the dead, and such spells as sorcerers do within any tradition of enchantment, etc. God detests homosexual acts and fornication -- people pursue these things in pornography and say it's ok because it's just fantasy -- but they are corrupting their hearts.

I'm not interested in entering into false realities where 'homosexuality isn't a sin but is consistent with Christianity" (i.e., the Anglican Communion), just as I am not interested in fiction about alternate realities where 'humans can engage in spiritism, pursue interpretation of omens, do astrology, and enchant others, and it isn't a sin but is Christian" (i.e., Harry Potter)

At least in Narnia the major human heroes aren't sorcerers or magicians doing enchantments, etc, and the 'deep magic from before time' is distinguished from occultism or demonology but instead refers either to miracles or to the hidden ways of Aslan or the underlying powers that Aslan has given created things and the way such powers worked. There is some filtering required with Narnia, but at least it isn't quite like Harry Potter. The major human hero characters who do anything mysterious or amazing are either A) directly guided by Aslan, or B) disobedient to Aslan and doing something for bad motives that is to be discouraged.

That said, Narnia, like Beowulf and Faerie Queen, is just a bit more edifying for a Christian than Grimm Fairy Tales. And I would NOT call C.S. Lewis a Christian theologian. He speaks on Christianity and he has philosophical and literary interest and training, but he really gives no sense of what Salvation is, and reading him doesn't seem to me to have much to do with specifically understanding Jesus better a more personal level.

You may keep with your superstition it's makes no difference to me. Just don't shove your silliness down our throats

 

[A New Dawn]

Words do have meaning. God detests astrology and the performances of seances to contact the dead, and such spells as sorcerers do within any tradition of enchantment, etc. God detests homosexual acts and fornication -- people pursue these things in pornography and say it's ok because it's just fantasy -- but they are corrupting their hearts.

I'm not interested in about entering into false realities where 'homosexuality isn't a sin but is consistent with Christianity" (i.e., the Anglican Communion), just as I am not interested in fiction about alternate realities where 'humans can engage in spiritism, pursue interpretation of omens, do astrology, and enchant others, and it isn't a sin but is Christian" (i.e., Harry Potter)

At least in Narnia the major human heroes aren't sorcerers or magicians doing enchantments, etc, and the 'deep magic from before time' is distinguished from occultism or demonology but instead refers either to miracles or to the hidden ways of Aslan or the underlying powers that Aslan has given created things and the way such powers worked. There is some filtering required with Narnia, but at least it isn't quite like Harry Potter. The major human hero characters who do anything mysterious or amazing are either A) directly guided by Aslan, or B) disobedient to Aslan and doing something for bad motives that is to be discouraged.

There is nothing stated in the book that distinguishes it from occultism or demonology, it is merely your interpretation of the book that gives you that belief. I don't disagree with that interpretation, but if you look at what Aslan says about the incident with the White Witch, she is using magic that he is aware of, that he participates in so that the deep magic from before the beginning of time can be called into action.

That said, Narnia, like Beowulf and Faerie Queen, is just a bit more edifying for a Christian than Grimm Fairy Tales. And I would NOT call C.S. Lewis a Christian theologian. He speaks on Christianity and he has philosophical and literary interest and training, but he really gives no sense of what Salvation is, and reading him doesn't seem to me to have much to do with specifically understanding Jesus better a more personal level.

Here is a quote from the end of the third book, The Voyage of the Dawn Treader".

"It isn't Narnia, you know," sobbed Lucy. "It's you. We shan't meet you there. And how can we live, never meeting you?"
"But you shall meet me, dear one," said Aslan.
"Are -are you there too, Sir?" said Edmund.
"I am," said Aslan. "But there I have another name. You must learn to know me by that name. This was the very reason why you were brought to Narnia, that by knowing me here for a little, you may know me better there."
— C.S. Lewis (The Voyage of the Dawn Treader)

 

[ToBeInChrist]

I understand alternate realities interest some. Well why, and in what way, would that be something a Christian should find edifying or to be encouraged, and just how much do we want our hearts to enjoy such alternative realities?

Some people think the Bible portrays an alternative reality, a fantasy, something false, with stories about miracles that never happened, stories about non-existent demons being cast out of people and con-artists doing sleight of hand to mimic the Miracles performed by Moses. I believe the Bible presents reality: sorcerers duplicated some of Moses' wonders but God was working through Moses so Moses defeated them, Saul consulted a medium and the medium called up some sort of spirit, demons were cast out of people by Jesus, a demonized man broke chains and another beat up 7 exorcists by demonic power, and a deminized slave had some sort of clairvoyant spirit in her until Paul cast it out of her.

So when sci-fi/fantasy 'entertainment' is around, I put on a filter, and some things I just don't find entertaining because my heart hates what God hates, or I want to have my heart be more the way God wants it to be so I avoid 'entertainment' that encourages what God hates.

Some sci-fi/fantasy offends more than others. I want to guard my heart.

 

[God's Word]

It isn't superstition to not find sin or moral-revisionism entertaining. I understand alternate realities interest some. Well why, and in what way, would that be something a Christian should find edifying or to be encouraged, and just how much do we want our hearts to enjoy such alternative realities?

Some people think the Bible portrays an alternative reality, a fantasy, something false, with stories about miracles that never happened, stories about non-existent demons being cast out of people and con-artists doing sleight of hand to mimic the Miracles performed by Moses. I believe the Bible presents reality: sorcerers duplicated some of Moses' wonders but God was working through Moses so Moses defeated them, Saul consulted a medium and the medium called up some sort of spirit, demons were cast out of people by Jesus, a demonized man broke chains and another beat up 7 exorcists by demonic power, and a deminized slave had some sort of clairvoyant spirit in her until Paul cast it out of her.

So when sci-fi/fantasy 'entertainment' is around, I put on a filter, and some things I just don't find entertaining because my heart hates what God hates, or I want to have my heart be more the way God wants it to be so I avoid 'entertainment' that encourages what God hates.

Some sci-fi/fantasy offends more than others. I want to guard my heart.

To my recollection, I've only stepped foot in a movie theater a few times since becoming a Christian many years ago...and the last time was a while back ("The Passion"). One time, it was "The Exorcist #?". What was I thinking? I actually went to see it with a co-worker of mine at the time and I got up part way through the movie and went and stood out in the lobby until the movie was over. Not only did I feel that I was grieving the Holy Spirit by watching such, but I also couldn't stand (or sit) to see Satan glorified in such a manner. The second time wasn't as obvious to me at the time. I went to see "Stepfather 2" with a bunch of friends. Once again, I felt as if I totally grieved the Holy Spirit by sitting through that one. I was still a young Christian and bound by the fear of man, so I didn't leave during the film because I was with people whom I had known almost all of my life. The last time, I went to see "The Passion". Even then, it was more because I knew that people would ask me about than any real desire to go.

Anyhow, you're right...we should guard our hearts:

Proverbs 4:23

"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life."

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

< staff edit >

Titus 1:14 No heeding to Jewish fables/myths and commandments of men, ones turning from the Truth

2 Timothy 4:4 And from indeed the Truth the hearing of them they shall be turning away,
upon yet the fables/myths they shall be being turned aside to.

&#x202a;Stevie Wonder ~ Superstition&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube

 

[ToBeInChrist]

Proverbs 4:23

"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life."

Yes. And real life trumps worldly entertainment anyhow.

 

[Timothew]

Harry Potter isn't a real person.

 

[LinuxUser]

I don't think some are bright enough to figure that out

 

[pgp_protector]

I don't think some are bright enough to figure that out

Lumos

 

[ToBeInChrist]

A question for those who like the Harry Potter books and movies, and recommend them as good entertainment, do you agree with ancient Jews and Christians that consulting the stars or getting a reading from a fortune-teller/astrologer is sinful?

 

[sbvd]

To my knowledge, this is the first time that you've addressed your question to me. I did see your brief conversation with "frankleespeaking", but, knowing a little bit about your background (you don't seem to like to get into quarrels...I'm not mocking...that's a good thing), I figured that I'd stay out of it unless you specifically addressed me or said something totally outlandish (which I wasn't expecting you to do, btw) that demanded a response. Anyhow, I'll gladly answer it, to the extent that I can. The reason that I say "to the extent that I can" is because I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "folk stories". In any case, as I've already explained throughout this thread, according to the testimony of J. K. Rowling, the author of the Harry Potter books, she did her research and about 1/3 of the magic that is used in the Potter books is actual magic that others have practiced in the past. Now, you can argue as to whether or not any genuine results came from/come from such magic, if you'd like to...I'm merely giving you this fact, straight from the horse's mouth, as it were. On top of this, as I've also mentioned, in the Potter books there are REAL NAMES of REAL PEOPLE given who have been involved with the occult in REAL LIFE. Now, why would Rowling have to include such, if it's all just "fantasy"? For example:

Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



A little later on, in the same article, we read:



Why did he have to be included in the books? He's just one of a few who I could mention, but, then again, I'm just a "muggle", so what do I know? Once again, according to Rowling, the number one thing that she hears from the children who read her books is that they think that people in the books ARE REAL. In fact, some of them ARE REAL, as in REAL OCCULTISTS. Do you HONESTLY think that none of the children who read the books are going to research some of these REAL OCCULTISTS on their own? Again, according to Rowling's own testimony, she receives numerous letters in which children are begging her to let them into Hogwarts. Why do you think that they want to enroll? To learn about JESUS?

Also, as I've already documented, there is one group which reports that they get 100 inquiries per month from children/teenagers who want to learn more about witchcraft as a direct result of the Potter books and such shows as "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Sabrina the Teenage Witch". Does this concern you? Once again, it matters not whether or not the "magic" or whatever in such shows is real or not. What matters is that children are being drawn into the world of the occult. Does this concern you?

FINALLY, I WHOLEHEARTEDLY BELIEVE, NAY, WHOLEHEARTEDLY KNOW, THAT THERE IS REAL MAGIC, WHICH IS DEMONIC IN NATURE, IN THIS WORLD.

Pssstttt...I'm married to a woman who was studying to be a witch before we got married. I could tell you some firsthand, eye-witness accounts of deliverances (plural) from DEMONS that would make some of you soil your undies.

I hope that this answers your questions. By the way, if you missed any of the documentation that I alluded to in this post, then I'll be happy to provide you links to such. Thanks. Also, I hope you don't find my "tone" to be too strong in this response. Quite frankly, I'm stunned to see how many professing Christians are defending this type of stuff. Then again, on the other hand, I'm really not stunned at all.

## On magicians of the past

Sir Isaac Newton was also an [alchemist](1) and a [theologian](2). The clear cut definitions we have about what constitute science today were blurred before the XIX century and the advent of positivism. What we call astronomy today wasn't that different from astrology in centuries past.

## On Rowlings' world

I assume that a fiction writer, dedicate a significant amount of his work researching the subject matter of her book. Yet it is self-evident that except for details here or there, that the book she envisions is the result of her own imagination. The spells are little else but bad Latin, I assume safe to notice that there is no Hog-warts and to the best of my knowledge cars do not fly. There is not any sightings whatsoever of 12 years old wizards flying on brooms around England -and it's safe to assume that a 12 years old kid flying on a broom would care little for rules.

## On the meta-story

Or what's Harry Potter really about.

I find that the claim of some children doing research of occultism as the result of reading Harry Potter demands a stronger backing than mere speculation. On the other hand, to consider that Harry Potter is a Christian book is, well, wishful thinking.

In my view, this is a story is an allegory of how to fight fears and depression and secondarily about friendship, growing up, and the value of the individual and its relationship to a larger group. The bravery of the protagonist dealing with an enemy the world does not dare to speak his name; the role of the dementors and how to fend them off, the close-knit structure of the three main protagonists: namely Harry Potter, Hermione and Ron; and the way the protagonists are willing to risk and sacrifice all for the world support this view.

Yet it is not a Christian book, as it does not deal with faith, God, nor salvation.

## On my reaction

I am a role-player of many years, and an amateur [game designer] and I've seen many small companies sink in the midst of some role-playing devil scare. I've seen the dreams of a few young men shattered. All done with the best of intentions, nah, for the sake of selling newspapers and because of knowing next to nothing about the youth.

Meanwhile the D&D spell still don't work

## On the nature of ethics and fantasy

I do not agree that everything is morally OK as long as it's fantasy. I do agree that an author has a moral responsibility. And I would abhor HP if it were promoting devil worship or the use of a power that is contrary to God. But that's not what I've found after reading four of the series. I believe that as the vast majority of the western world Rowlings do not believe such a magic is real.

## On the existence of magic

Oh yes, I know a lot of frauds and self-deceivers that claim to be wizards. But can any of them back their claims before the court of science? I'm sure a few of them could scare me, and it's not easy to figure out even the tricks of prestidigitation. But that is not evidence and I'm extremely skeptical about them.

## Last, but not least

No worries, I just wanted to know if I was wasting my time, as usual

[1]: Isaac Newton the Alchemist.

[2]: http://www.isaac-newton.org/pdf/Snobelen Newton To discourse of God 2004.pdf

[3]: MiniM Role-Playing

[4]: What the Bible says about Wicca/Witchcraft

 

[Timothew]

A question for those who like the Harry Potter books and movies, and recommend them as good entertainment, do you agree with ancient Jews and Christians that consulting the stars or getting a reading from a fortune-teller/astrologer is sinful?

Would you agree that reading a book of fiction is different from getting mystical powers from Satan?

 

[God's Word]

No worries, I just wanted to know if I was wasting my time, as usual

Well, if your hope/intention is to sway me from anything that I've already stated, then, yes, you are wasting your time. Beyond that, read as much "fantasy" as you'd like to. This isn't a public book burning...it's a debate. Quite frankly, as I've said before, with all of the need in the world, I simply can't imagine how God would be leading anybody to be reading "fanstasy" books.

 

[xAmadeusx]

.................

 

[Fireinfolding]

I burned (or rather trashed) my star magazines and gossipy books. That was when things changed and the word of God prevailed in my life, not minding all that superficial, gossipy.( meddling into the affairs of others) backbiting stuff. Must admit that did help

But I am guilty of Harry Potter < staff edit >

 

[The_Master]

I burned (or rather trashed) my star magazines and gossipy books. That was when things changed and the word of God prevailed in my life, not minding all that superficial, gossipy.( meddling into the affairs of others) backbiting stuff. Must admit that did help

But I am guilty of Harry Potter < staff edit >

Picks up stones.
sees Mirror.
Looks in mirror.
throws stone at mirror.


Now where was fireinfolding....

 

[Fireinfolding]

Picks up stones.
sees Mirror.
Looks in mirror.
throws stone at mirror.


Now where was fireinfolding....

Hiding

 

[sbvd]

Well, if your hope/intention is to sway me from anything that I've already stated, then, yes, you are wasting your time. Beyond that, read as much "fantasy" as you'd like to. This isn't a public book burning...it's a debate. Quite frankly, as I've said before, with all of the need in the world, I simply can't imagine how God would be leading anybody to be reading "fanstasy" books.

Oh, not in the least. I've happily gone past the phase on wanting to change anybody's stance on anything. I just wanted to see if we could make an articulated exchange of opinion, as that tends to be difficult over forums.

However, I do strongly oppose the uninformed view that fiction and fantasy is little but a pastime. Yes, it can be, that's Entertainment, but then you have art, you have meaning and message and that can be done best with a little fantasy.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well, if your hope/intention is to sway me from anything that I've already stated, then, yes, you are wasting your time. Beyond that, read as much "fantasy" as you'd like to. This isn't a public book burning...it's a debate. Quite frankly, as I've said before, with all of the need in the world, I simply can't imagine how God would be leading anybody to be reading "fanstasy" books.

Tis commonly referred to here on CF as the "closed mind/wounded duck" syndrome...

http://www.christianforums.com/t1572784/
Does anyone ever change their beliefs on this forum?

I am just wondering if there is a purpose for discussing much of the things that are discussed here on these forums. I am wondering if everyone here has already come to these forums with a closed mind, ready to convince everyone else they are right without even thinking upon the other point of view.

So, has anyone ever got on this forum one day with a certain position, and after someone here pointed out the other view point, changed their mind on their position? If so, what position was it? What was said to change your mind?

 

[A New Dawn]

Tis commonly referred to here on CF as the "closed mind/wounded duck" syndrome...

http://www.christianforums.com/t1572784/
Does anyone ever change their beliefs on this forum?

I am just wondering if there is a purpose for discussing much of the things that are discussed here on these forums. I am wondering if everyone here has already come to these forums with a closed mind, ready to convince everyone else they are right without even thinking upon the other point of view.

So, has anyone ever got on this forum one day with a certain position, and after someone here pointed out the other view point, changed their mind on their position? If so, what position was it? What was said to change your mind?

Where do you find all these old threads? Do you have a log somewhere? I mean, that thread is 6 years old! LOL.