If God Exists, He is Necessarily Triune

[Eliyahu52]

This is how we get "Father, Son, Holy Ghost" 1 John 5:7

Bs'd

And what about 1 John 5:7? "For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."

Well, this looks like a great text to proof a trinity, except for the fact that this is a falsification of your Bible. In the original Greek manuscripts of the New Testament this verse doesn't exist.

This text is later added to you Bible, in a desperate attempt to proof a trinity which cannot be proven.

The NT has come to us in bits and pieces. A Gospel from here, the letters of Paul from there... The first ones who compiled of this a reliable text of the NT where Westcott and Hort who did so in 1881.

In that Greek text of the NT is written in 1 John 5:7; "For there are three that testify"

That's all.

Followed by verse 8: "the Spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one."



The whole part about the Father, the word and the holy spirit, and that those are one, doesn't exist in the original Greek text.

Nowadays the Greek text of dr Eberhard Nestle is the most reliable text of the NT, and in 1 John 5:7+8 it is exactly the same as the text of Westcott and Hort.

You don't have to take my word for it, just ask your pastor or reverend, and he'll confirm these facts.

About 30,000 Greek manuscripts of the New Testament have been found.

Of those thousands manuscripts that trinity formula is to be found in only four (4) manuscripts, and not one of those four goes back any further than the sixteenth century.

Therefore all Bible scholars agree that it is a 16th century falsification. Some say it was a note in the margin which ended up in the text.

Therefore all modern Bible translations leave out that part that doesn't belong in your Bible. Some translations put it between brackets, and some old ones like the KJV still have it in the text.

Old translations like the KJV are based on the so called "Textus Receptus", and that is based on relatively young and unreliable manuscripts.

The textus receptus of the Greek NT is compiled by Erasmus, and published in 1516.

The interesting part is that the first edition of the Textus Receptus didn't have that trinity formula in 1 John 5:7. When the church asked him why he didn't put in the Comma Johanneum, he answered: "I have never in my life seen a Greek manuscript which contains it."
Then the church showed him one, (the ink probably still wet on it) and in the following editions the comma was included.

Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textus_Receptus

"Erasmus had been studying Greek New Testament manuscripts for many years, in the Netherlands, France, England and Switzerland, noting their many variants, but had only six Greek manuscripts immediately accessible to him in Basel.[5] They all dated from the 12th Century or later, and only one came from outside the mainstream Byzantine tradition. Consequently, most modern scholars consider his text to be of dubious quality.[7]

With the third edition of Erasmus' Greek text (1522) the Comma Johanneum was included, because "Erasmus chose to avoid any occasion for slander rather than persisting in philological accuracy", even though he remained "convinced that it did not belong to the original text of l John."[8]

There is no such thing as a trinity, not in the Old Testament and not in the New Testament.​

 

[Chinchilla]

God must be Triune.

At least he cannot be a monad. The monadic God would be the solitary person of Judaism, Islam, or even deism. But such a God cannot exist unless we deny that God is a person. Perhaps these non-biblical religions do go this far. Jews, Muslims, deists, and others will have to speak to whether or not they believe that God is a person.

But if we say that God is a person then God cannot be a monadic, solitary person. This is because of the nature of what it means to be a person.

A person is necessarily a being-in-relationship. Considered on a human level, you are a person defined completely by your relationship to other people. You are a son, a daughter, a mother or father, a friend, a lover, a brother or sister, etc. It is impossible to conceive of yourself independently of your various relationships. Persons are beings-in-relationship. No relationship, no person.

The God of the Bible is Triune - a being-in-relationship with himself from all eternity. He is a Father and a Son. He has always existed in loving, personal relationship. But the God of Judaism, Islam, or deism, being a monad, is not a person at all. From eternity he had no relationships and thus was not a person.

Therefore, if God exists and is a person, he must be multi personal - even Triune.

God must love somebody - at least 1 additional person and must have choice so as least two, he choose to love both .

 

[Inkfingers]

You have "Let Us (capitalized see) make man in Our (again capitalized) image...Our likeness..."

Why/how is it that, for at least 1,000 years, the Jews never took that to be referring to a non-monadic deity?

 

[com7fy8]

But if we say that God is a person then God cannot be a monadic, solitary person. This is because of the nature of what it means to be a person.

Well, I do understand that God is our Father and His Son Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

But I think that God is not all three Persons at every point where God is. But wherever God is, He "is love" (1 John 4:8&16). And He is personal, though maybe not all three Persons, wherever He is.

So, for logic, if God were to not be three Persons, still He could be personal in love.

But, like I say, I do trust and believe that God is three Persons, but I do not think your logic confirms this.

He went to extraordinary lengths to introduce Himself to us as one being, as in "My glory I will not share with another" and on and on. Even when He introduced Himself to Moses it was Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh-- I will be what I will be. A complete unique and completely self sustaining being.

God is "one Being".

And He does not give His glory to some other "God", because there is no other.

However, God is able to share >

"'And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:'" (John 17:22)

This does not mean He gives His glory to another "God". This means He shares. He shares with His Son Jesus, plus even shares with us who live in His love which has His own glory.

 

[Chinchilla]

Why/how is it that, for at least 1,000 years, the Jews never took that to be referring to a non-monadic deity?

They still don't . You ask them why Elohim (ending with im - plural ) they tend to dodge the question

 

[Inkfingers]

They still don't . You ask them why Elohim (ending with im - plural ) they tend to dodge the question

Well, quite, but I was speaking of the pre-Christ period. But yes today they maintain that this is not referring to a non-monadic deity.

 

[Eliyahu52]

The Triune God is indeed one being. But He is three persons within that one being.

Bs"d

Therefore, the Christiains have one God who is three.

And the Bible teaches that there is only one God who IS one.

Therefore Christianity is wrong.

God must love somebody - at least 1 additional person and must have choice so as least two, he choose to love both .

Bs"d

From where do you get these weird ideas??

https://tinyurl.com/shma-Isr

 

[Eliyahu52]

But, like I say, I do trust and believe that God is three Persons, but I do not think your logic confirms this.

God is "one Being".

Bs"d

One being who is one: https://tinyurl.com/shma-Isr

 

[Eliyahu52]

They still don't . You ask them why Elohim (ending with im - plural ) they tend to dodge the question

Bs"d

No dodging today:

http://torahofmessiah.org/meaning-of-elohim-echad/
A typical example of the many word games Trinitarians and others use as they endeavor to promote their false god.
Adapted from The Journal of Hebraic Renewal, which reprinted it from Focus on the Kingdom magazine.

To support the commonly held teaching that God is a plural entity consisting of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit [1], Messianics that follow the primary Traditional Christian doctrines from which they came, as well as Traditional Christians, themselves, will appeal to two Hebrew words: Elohim (eloheem) and echad (echad, "ch" as in the Scottish "loch"). They assert that the Hebrew word, Elohim, indicates that God is a plural entity because it is the plural form of the word for God and is the title most often used for the God of Israel. Echad - used in the well-known "shema" of Deuteronomy 6:4 instructing Israel that their God is "one" - is asserted by them to show the plurality of God because, they say echad in the Hebrew actually indicates a compound, rather than an absolute, unity; that is, rather than a "simple" one, they say echad indicates a unity of more than one.

Each claim will now be examined.

Elohim
Elohim is the plural form of Eloah and appears closely related to El, which usually means "god", "God", or "mighty one". But IF we were right to translate Elohim as a plural word, the Bible would teach us that in the beginning, "Gods" created the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1). The Bible would then support the idea that more than one God created the universe, spoke to Abraham, delivered Israel from bondage and continued dealing with them, etc., since Elohim is used throughout the Tanakh ("Old" Testament) as Israel's God(s). But virtually no Christian - Messianic or otherwise - would profess that there is more than one God.

So, how do we resolve this dilemma? And why do all the translations translate Elohim simply as "God" and not "Gods" when it refers to the true God?

In Biblical Hebrew, a noun that is plural in form is not necessarily plural in meaning - a fact most Messianic leaders realize, yet seem to ignore. For instance, the Hebrew words chayim (chayeem, "life") [2] and panim (paneem, "face", "presence", "countenance") [3] are plural in form, but almost always singular in meaning. Another word, adon, "lord", "master", [4] is often plural in form. In its plural form it is sometimes used of a single person - Abraham (Gen. 24:9-10), Joseph (Gen. 42:30,33), the king of Egypt (Gen. 40:1) and an anonymous "fierce king" under whose rule the Egyptians were prophesied to come (Isa. 19:4, NRSV). There are instances of other plural Hebrew words employed in the Hebrew Bible with singular meaning.

Equally striking is the fact that the same term, elohim, is used of the individual false gods of Israel's surrounding nations. Elohim is used of Dagon, the god of the Philistines (1 Sam. 5:7); of Chemosh, the god of Ammon and Moab (Jud. 11:24; 1 Kings 11:33); of Ashtarte (or Ashtoreth), the god(dess) of the Sidonians (1 Kings 11:33); of Milcom, another god of the Ammorites (1 Kings 11:33). In Smith's Bible Dictionary (NISBE) no plurality in any one of these gods is even hinted at. Additionally, in Ezra's prayer in Nehemiah 9:18, elohim is used to refer to the single golden calf made by Israel in the wilderness.

Elohim is also used of single human figures. Moses in both Exodus 4:16 and 7:1 and the Messianic king in Psalms 45:6 (verse 7 in the Hebrew Bible) are each referred to as elohim [5].

What all this indicates is that in Biblical Hebrew, plural nouns in general and Elohim in particular do not always have plural meanings. In the case of the word Elohim, in fact, it would appear as though we should almost always understand it as singular in meaning unless the context indicates that "gods" are referred to.

Hebrew scholars are entirely familiar with these facts (as are Christianized Messianic leaders). The expressions "plural of majesty" or "plural of rank" or "intensive plural" are sometimes used to describe this phenomenon of language (not just Hebrew) where the form of a word can be plural but its meaning is singular. The idea is that the plural stresses or exalts the importance of the person referred to. The following is a quotation regarding Elohim from the NISBE, in their article on "God, Names of":

The use of the plural form with singular meaning is not unique to Israel. Similar forms occur in pre-Israelite Babylonian and Canaanite texts in which a worshiper wishes to exalt a particular god above others. This form has been called the plural of majesty or the intensive plural because it implies that all the fullness of deity is concentrated in the one god. Elohim's being the most common word for God in the Tanakh thus conveys this idea. (Vol. 2, p. 505).
Smith's Bible Dictionary has this to say on the same subject in their article entitled "God":

The plural form of Elohim has given rise to much discussion. The fanciful idea that it referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God (p. 220).
But by no means is YHWH ever referred to by plural forms. In fact, whenever the people of God speak of Him in the Hebrew Bible using a pronoun, they ALWAYS employ the singular form. Whether it is the third person (He, Him, His) or the second person (You, Your, Thou, Thy) this is the case. The people of God understood their God to be a single Individual. [6]

Nor is He only referred to in the plural when "God" is the translated word. Two forms referred to above, El and Eloah used in the Tanakh to refer to the true God, are both singular in form. [7] When an Aramaic word for God, Elah, is used, it too appears to be always in its singular form when referring to the true God. [8]

The form of the verb used in Hebrew when Elohim the true God is the subject is also instructive. It is virtually always singular in form throughout the Tanakh. In Genesis 1, for example - where the reader is first introduced to Elohim the Creator - the Hebrew verb form is always in the third masculine singular whenever [9] we read that "Elohim created" or "Elohim said" or "Elohim made", etc. [10]

Finally, the Septuagint (known as "LXX"), the Greek version of the Hebrew Bible (probably translated in the third and second century B.C.E.) ALWAYS translated the Hebrew word for God in the singular (Gr. theos). The LXX version of the Old Testament is often cited in the New Testament instead of the Hebrew. [11]

Therefore - returning to the original argument (which usually includes the "Let us..." statement in Gen. 1:26) - if God must be regarded as a plural entity because He is referred to in a plural form, why then must He not be regarded as a singular entity since He is referred to in singular forms? Are not all these statements Holy Scripture? We could be left with a contradiction were it not for the many examples of plural forms with singular meanings in Hebrew, including the concept of "plural of majesty". The plural of majesty clarifies the usage of the plural form for the true God in the Tanakh. He is described by thousands and thousands of singular verbs and pronouns. Language has no more definite way of telling us that God is ONE Person, the Father of Yeshua - but definitely NOT Yeshua!

As a final proof, note the Messianic 22nd Psalm. I will quote from only a portion of this Psalm which, when read using common sense, CLEARLY shows that Yeshua (the prophetic focus of this Psalm) refers to God (Elohim and El) as HIS God (Elohim). I will include in parenthesis the Hebrew word translated as "God."

Psalm 22:1,2,10
1 My God (El), my God (El), why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? 2 O my God (Elohim), I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent. ... 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God (El) from my mother's belly.
The King James Version, (Cambridge: Cambridge) 1769.

 

[Chinchilla]

Bs"d

Therefore, the Christiains have one God who is three.

And the Bible teaches that there is only one God who IS one.

Therefore Christianity is wrong.


Bs"d

From where do you get these weird ideas??

https://tinyurl.com/shma-Isr

Can you tell me why is this angel worshipped in OT?

Angels usually never want to be worshipped because that would be stealing the glory of God


God requires to be worshipped
Exodus 3:5-8 King James Version (KJV)
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

7 And the Lord said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;


Why did this dude told Joshua to show him respect ?
Joshua 5 King James Version (KJV)

10 And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.

11 And they did eat of the old corn of the land on the morrow after the passover, unleavened cakes, and parched corn in the selfsame day.

12 And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the old corn of the land; neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

He even did the war on Sabbath where Jews would never do any works on Sabbath . Was he , the LORD of Sabbath ?

Genesis 22:15-19 King James Version (KJV)
Who is that Angel of the LORD and why is he calling himself LORD ?

15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

19 So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.
Mark 2:27-28 King James Version (KJV)
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

 

[Eliyahu52]

Can you tell me why is this angel worshipped in OT?

Angels usually never want to be worshipped because that would be stealing the glory of God


God requires to be worshipped

Bs"d

What is wrong with God requiring to be worshipped?

Why did this dude told Joshua to show him respect ?
Joshua 5 King James Version (KJV)

13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?

14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the Lord am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?

15 And the captain of the Lord's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

That dude didn't tell Joshua to show him respect, het told Joshua to show respect for the holy ground he was standing on.

Also he didn't "worshop" him, that's just a bad translation, he bowed down to him, which is something that many people do in the Tanach for other people.

He even did the war on Sabbath where Jews would never do any works on Sabbath . Was he , the LORD of Sabbath ?

Where does it say he went to war on the shabbat?

Genesis 22:15-19 King James Version (KJV)
Who is that Angel of the LORD and why is he calling himself LORD ?

15 And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

19 So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.

God spoke through the angel. In the Torah and in Jewish law a messenger is considered equal to the sender of that messenger himself.

 

[Chinchilla]

Bs"d

What is wrong with God requiring to be worshipped?


That dude didn't tell Joshua to show him respect, het told Joshua to show respect for the holy ground he was standing on.

Also he didn't "worshop" him, that's just a bad translation, he bowed down to him, which is something that many people do in the Tanach for other people.



Where does it say he went to war on the shabbat?



God spoke through the angel. In the Torah and in Jewish law a messenger is considered equal to the sender of that messenger himself.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

 

[Saint Steven]

…
A person is necessarily a being-in-relationship. Considered on a human level, you are a person defined completely by your relationship to other people. You are a son, a daughter, a mother or father, a friend, a lover, a brother or sister, etc. It is impossible to conceive of yourself independently of your various relationships. Persons are beings-in-relationship. No relationship, no person. ...

According to this logic, would a person stranded on a desert island not be a person?
Since they have lost all relationships.

Furthermore, does God require a relationship with us to be a valid person?
Was God not already a person before he created us?

Or perhaps you are saying that there was never less than three persons
(defined by relationship) since God is triune. Everyone else relates in some way.

 

[LoAmmi]

They still don't . You ask them why Elohim (ending with im - plural ) they tend to dodge the question

You know, when you ask someone question, and they ask "Do you mean "Elohim"? and your next post runs off on a tangent, that doesn't mean they are dodging anything.

I would have given you the same answer given in this thread.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

According to this logic, would a person stranded on a desert island not be a person?
Since they have lost all relationships.

Furthermore, does God require a relationship with us to be a valid person?
Was God not already a person before he created us?

Or perhaps you are saying that there was never less than three persons
(defined by relationship) since God is triune. Everyone else relates in some way.

As written in Scripture, Yahweh is not a person. He is Spirit. (He is called person in english/ western and other 'slang' or colloquial phrases/ references,
but it still remains written that Yahweh is not a man/person).

Someone else also wrongly posted recently that He has a soul, but that is not written either - Yahweh has no body , no parts, no soul, according to His Word.

 

[Tree of Life]

According to this logic, would a person stranded on a desert island not be a person?
Since they have lost all relationships.

Isolated people are in danger of losing their personhood. They still retain it in a diminished way because, even though isolated, they have distant relations. They are still a Son, brother, etc.

Furthermore, does God require a relationship with us to be a valid person?

No. God has all the relationships he needs within himself.

Was God not already a person before he created us?

The Triune God of the Bible certainly has always been a person. But the monadic God of Judaism would not be a person before creation.

Or perhaps you are saying that there was never less than three persons
(defined by relationship) since God is triune. Everyone else relates in some way.

Bingo.

 

[Chinchilla]

You know, when you ask someone question, and they ask "Do you mean "Elohim"? and your next post runs off on a tangent, that doesn't mean they are dodging anything.

I would have given you the same answer given in this thread.

I appricate that but I generalize from previous experiences . Most people either practicing Judaism or Christianity do not know anything from Talmud/Bible they just do it as tradition , you can go ask 100 Christians where is the definition of the gospel for example and they won't be able to show you or maybe you get one person or two with that knowledge .

 

[LoAmmi]

I appricate that but I generalize from previous experiences . Most people either practicing Judaism or Christianity do not know anything from Talmud/Bible they just do it as tradition , you can go ask 100 Christians where is the definition of the gospel for example and they won't be able to show you or maybe you get one person or two with that knowledge .

Absolutely agree with you there. Lots of people just do what they were born into and that's it. We do this because it's what we do.

In other words....

 

[Tree of Life]

Bs"d

And where is that written in Scripture?

שמע ישראל י-ה-ו-ה אלהנו י-ה-ו-ה אחד

Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE.​

​

We do not wish to deny that God is one. However, this oneness is a oneness of unity and not of singularity. It is a complex oneness.

Beside Him there is no God, no Buddha, no Christ, no David Koresh; NOBODY.

Yahweh says that there is a Christ (Psalm 2) and that Christ is God (Psalm 45:6).

Whoever worships anything or anybody else than Y-H-W-H is an IDOL WORSHIPPER.

Agreed. But since Jesus Christ is Yahweh, anyone who does not worship the Christ does not truly worship Yahweh. So who is the real idolater?

 

[LoAmmi]

Agreed. But since Jesus Christ is Yahweh, anyone who does not worship the Christ does not truly worship Yahweh. So who is the real idolater?

I have to disagree on this point, even if you are correct. We are not perfect beings. We also have imperfect knowledge. I would not want to worship a deity that would judge us harshly for attempting to follow the commandments He gave us, namely worshiping Him alone, but being careful in the way we do it because we do not understand or know some aspect of Him.