If forever punishment is true and if all dead babies go to Heaven...

[Spiritual Jew]

That's OK when the student is ready the teaching will come.

So, let me know when you are ready and then I will teach you.

 

[Clare73]

That's OK when the student is ready the teaching will come.

Depends on whether one is a student or not.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Do you just always ignore context? Looks like it. Do you not understand that His longsuffering would not be necessary if everyone ends up being saved? He is longsuffering because He gives people plenty of opportunities to be saved, but He doesn't give people endless opportunity to repent and be saved. Scripture never teaches that. Scripture does not teach that anyone who is cast into the lake of fire (the second death) is given a chance to repent after that.


That was a pretty lame argument for the purpose of evangelism according to your false doctrine. The reality is that there is an urgency to evangelism because today is the day and now is the time of salvation! (2 Corinthians 6:2). You don't know if tomorrow, or even the next moment, will come. There are no second chances for salvation after death! Scripture never teaches such a thing.

Will you please show me the context of these verses and show me how I have ignored it.
If you are going to make that statement could you please back it up with how you think.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Will you please show me the context of these verses and show me how I have ignored it.
If you are going to make that statement could you please back it up with how you think.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Why would God's patience be a factor in salvation if everyone ends up being saved? What would He need to be patient about in that case, knowing that everyone will eventually repent and have faith? But, His patience is not endless. It does run out eventually. He is slow to anger, but that doesn't mean He never gets angry. He gives people opportunities to repent, but once He determines that He has given them enough opportunities, then His wrath comes down and then it's too late. His patience gives people the opportunity to repent, but they need to repent during the time that the Lord gives them that opportunity or else they will perish and not have eternal life.

Also, in your view there is no urgency involved in salvation because you believe everyone will eventually be saved. How do you reconcile that with a passage like this...

2 Corinthians 6:1 As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.

How do you reconcile your view with this passage when, in your view, there is no urgency for anyone to be saved now since you think everyone will eventually be saved whether it's now or today or some other day or time in the future? But, no one knows if tomorrow will even come and this lifetime is the only chance we have to be saved, so that's why Paul says "now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation".

 

[Jeff Saunders]

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Why would God's patience be a factor in salvation if everyone ends up being saved? What would He need to be patient about in that case, knowing that everyone will eventually repent and have faith? But, His patience is not endless. It does run out eventually. He is slow to anger, but that doesn't mean He never gets angry. He gives people opportunities to repent, but once He determines that He has given them enough opportunities, then His wrath comes down and then it's too late. His patience gives people the opportunity to repent, but they need to repent during the time that the Lord gives them that opportunity or else they will perish and not have eternal life.

Also, in your view there is no urgency involved in salvation because you believe everyone will eventually be saved. How do you reconcile that with a passage like this...

2 Corinthians 6:1 As God’s co-workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2 For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.

How do you reconcile your view with this passage when, in your view, there is no urgency for anyone to be saved now since you think everyone will eventually be saved whether it's now or today or some other day or time in the future? But, no one knows if tomorrow will even come and this lifetime is the only chance we have to be saved, so that's why Paul says "now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation".

My question to you was how did I take this verse out of context, I believe and know that God will get all he wants and wills or desires. This verse states that " not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" , you say that is out of context, then tell me what is the context of this verse?
The call of God is not heaven or hell when you die, Jesus already took care of that, 2 Cor 5:19 " in Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them," did Jesus fail in reconciling the cosmos to himself? Is God just pulling a cruel joke when he said, " not counting peoples trespasses against them" ?
What do you think the context of these verses is, seeing you think that I am taking them out of context.
This is what I believe the context to be, Jesus was what scripture says he was and is, John 4:42 : Jesus is the Christ, the savior of the cosmos" John 12:47 " Jesus came to save the cosmos not judge it " Again I ask did Jesus fail in his mission?
Jesus already has " saved " the whole of humanity, that was taken care of on the cross.
The offer for us is in Gods Kingdome are you going to be part of the Kingdome or a subject of that Kingdom?
God is infinite, its not like there is only so much to go around, Gods love has no end its infinite so when you experience his love you want everyone to be part of it with you, but we only have this time in the mortal body to partake of the offer to be part of the Kingdom, to rule and reign with Jesus, and the more the better, also the more people who follow Jesus the better our time in the mortal body will be, Thats is the urgency of what the disciples were talking about.
Have you ever asked yourself why every time scripture says something is Gods will we accept it until it comes to 1 Tim 2:3-6, then we say it can't be as written, then we make up two wills of God, totally not in scripture or we explain it away like the Calvinist saying, all men, means all kinds of men, which the original Greek does not say.
God truly is Love, Life and Light and in him is no darkness( eternal hell seems like darkness to me) , when God started this creation he had a plan and a purpose that has been working out for some 6000 years so far, and that plan was to have a creation that would come along side and have fellowship within the Trinity but get there out of free will, the highest form of human love, and he will do as he has planned man can't thwart his will.
I know tradition is hard to go against, but maybe God is even better than we think. Maybe your idea that his patients is limited is not understanding that God is infinite and anytime we try to limit that he is always better, more loving and good than we can imagine.

 

[DragonFox91]

In regards to the OP, I don't believe in the age of accuntability. I think kids know what they're doing when they do bad. This is ignorant parents not realizing what kids talk about behind their back or more likely having their fingers in their ears. We are all destined for wrath unless we are in Christ. Why say it 18, why not 70, 80? No, the age of accountability for your sin is not Biblical.

 

[Strong in Him]

In regards to the OP, I don't believe in the age of accuntability. I think kids know what they're doing when they do bad.

Yes, but there is a difference between "doing bad" and knowing about God and rejecting him.
Sin is against God and falling short of his glory, Romans 3:23. Can someone knowingly reject God if they have not heard about him or believe in him?

 

[Clare73]

Yes, but there is a difference between "doing bad" and knowing about God and rejecting him.
Sin is against God and falling short of his glory, Romans 3:23. Can someone knowingly reject God if they have not heard about him or believe in him?

Yep. . .and they are without excuse (Ro 1:18-20).

 

[Strong in Him]

Yep. . .and they are without excuse (Ro 1:18-20).

Really?
You believe in a God who punishes people for not knowing him even though they have never had a chance to know him?
1 John 4:8.

 

[Clare73]

Really?
You believe in a God who punishes people for not knowing him even though they have never had a chance to know him?
1 John 4:8.

1 Jn 4:8 is written to believers.

I agree with Ro 1:18-20. . .you don't agree with the word of God in Ro 1:18-20?

 

[Strong in Him]

1 Jn 4:8 is written to believers.

So God is love only for those who believe in him?
That contradicts Jesus' words that if we love only those who love us we are no better than pagans, Matthew 5:46.

I agree with Ro 1:18-20. . .you don't agree with the word of God in Ro 1:18-20?

I agree with the word of God taken in context.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

We were talking about children - how do children suppress the truth by their wickedness? Are they old enough to even know the truth?

19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

If God has made the truth about himself plain to children and they knowingly reject that truth, that's different.

20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Do children clearly see God's divine power in nature?

 

[Clare73]

So God is love only for those who believe in him?

He is justice to those who do not believe in his Son.

That contradicts Jesus' words that if we love only those who love us we are no better than pagans, Matthew 5:46.
I agree with the word of God taken in context.
We were talking about children - how do children suppress the truth by their wickedness? Are they old enough to even know the truth?
If God has made the truth about himself plain to children and they knowingly reject that truth, that's different.
Do children clearly see God's divine power in nature?

Apples and oranges. . .this is about Paul showing the condemnation of all mankind before the call of Abraham.

After Abraham, he and his descendants who believed in the promise (Ge 15:5-6, Seed, Jesus Christ, Gal 3:16) were not condemned.

All mankind, including children, are born with Adam's sin imputed to them (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19), by which they are by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), until they are regenerated (Jn 3:3-5) by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit into eternal life.

 

[Strong in Him]

He is justice to those who do not believe in his Son.

And I am sure that there are some people who don't want to believe because they don't know him - they believe, or have been told, that he is strict, forbids them to do anything or is uncaring because they suffer.

Apples and oranges. . .this is about Paul showing the condemnation of all mankind before the call of Abraham.

It's not apples and oranges. The comment was made that children do bad things and know that they do bad things, and I commented that if a child has not known God and not chosen to reject him then that is different to an adult who does know God and deliberately rejects him.

All mankind, including children, are born with Adam's sin imputed to them (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19), by which they are by nature objects of wrath (Eph 2:3), until they are regenerated (Jn 3:3-5) by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) will of the Holy Spirit into eternal life.

So are you saying that the God who sees a child growing in the womb, who has formed them and knows all about them, Psalm 139, will reject them if they die because they are objects of wrath?
Solomon wrote that children are a gift from the Lord and a reward from him, Psalm 127:3. Is that God's gift to mothers; objects of wrath?
In the Bible, Sarah, Rachel, Hannah, Elizabeth and others were unable to have children. Why did they pray and ask God to give them objects of wrath? Why did Eve say, "with the Lord's help I have brought forth a son"?
Was King David's son who died because of illness an object or wrath? Why then did David say that he would be with him some day - is David in hell?

And there is no way that I believe that my 22 month old brother who died before he could read, or barely speak, and go to church is in hell because he was an object of God's wrath.
My perfect, loving heavenly Father isn't like that.

 

[Clare73]

And I am sure that there are some people who don't want to believe because they don't know him -

No one knows him apart from the rebirth by the Sovereign will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:-8).

they believe, or have been told, that he is strict, forbids them to do anything or is uncaring because they suffer.

It's not apples and oranges. The comment was made that children do bad things and know that they do bad things, and I commented that if a child has not known God and not chosen to reject him then that is different to an adult who does know God and deliberately rejects him.

The condemnation of all mankind is not about children knowing right from wrong.

It's about God imputing Adam's sin to all those of Adam (Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19), making them unrighteous,
just as he imputes Christ's righteousness to all those of Christ (Ro 5:18-19, 3:21-22, 4:22-25, 2 Co 5:21), making them righteous.

So are you saying that the God who sees a child growing in the womb, who has formed them and knows all about them, Psalm 139, will reject them if they die because they are objects of wrath?
Solomon wrote that children are a gift from the Lord and a reward from him, Psalm 127:3. Is that God's gift to mothers; objects of wrath?
In the Bible, Sarah, Rachel, Hannah, Elizabeth and others were unable to have children. Why did they pray and ask God to give them objects of wrath? Why did Eve say, "with the Lord's help I have brought forth a son"?

I am saying Ro 5:17, 12-16, 18-19, Eph 2:3.

Was King David's son who died because of illness an object or wrath? Why then did David say that he would be with him some day - is David in hell?

And there is no way that I believe that my 22 month old brother who died before he could read, or barely speak, and go to church is in hell because he was an object of God's wrath.

What does Eph 2:3 say? . . .by nature objects of wrath. . .we are born with our nature.

My perfect, loving heavenly Father isn't like that.

Not to his own, he is not.

 

[Strong in Him]

Not to his own, he is not.

So God loves only those who love him?
That would make him a hypocrite, Matthew 5:46.

 

[Clare73]

So God loves only those who love him?
That would make him a hypocrite, Matthew 5:46.

No, because what you think is an enemy may actually be one of God's elect not yet come to faith.

God cannot be mistaken about who are his enemies, but you can be mistaken about who are your enemies.

 

[Strong in Him]

No, because what you think is an enemy may actually be one of God's elect not yet come to faith.

God cannot be mistaken about who are his enemies, but you can be mistaken about who are your enemies.

God's enemy is sin and the devil.
If God had any human enemies, Jesus died for them, Romans 5:10 as well as for the ungodly, Romans 5:6, and for sinners, Romans 5:8.

 

[Clare73]

God's enemy is sin and the devil.
If God had any human enemies, Jesus died for them, Romans 5:10 as well as for the ungodly, Romans 5:6, and for sinners, Romans 5:8.

The forgiveness of sin is only for ungodly enemy sinners (Ro 5:10) who have come to faith in the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin (Ro 3:25).

 

[Strong in Him]

The forgiveness of sin is only for ungodly enemy sinners (Ro 5:10) who have come to faith in the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin (Ro 3:25).

So someone has to come to faith - be born again - before they can be forgiven?
I would say that the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin and leads them to Jesus where they can learn that he died for them and they can confess and be forgiven. Jesus died for all - eternal life is a gift from God, Romans 6:23, and can be received by anyone.

 

[Clare73]

So someone has to come to faith - be born again - before they can be forgiven?

If forgiveness depends on repentance, one must be born again to repent.

I would say that the Holy Spirit convicts people

Indeed, after he sovereignly (Jn 3:6-8) rebirths them, for they are spiritually dead and can see (understand) nothing spiritual (Jn 3:3-5), it is all foolishness to them (1 Co 2:14) , they can make no spiritual response of any kind.
They must first be brought to spiritual life in the new birth (Jn 3:3-5) by the sovereign choice (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit in order to be able to even see anything spiritual.