If forever punishment is true and if all dead babies go to Heaven...

[Spiritual Jew]

If you don't believe that the early church taught Universal Salvation, you have not read much of the early church fathers, not all of them but many did.

Prove it. Show me.

Even Augustine who was apposed to universal salvation said they were many in his day that taught it without denying the scripture. In some placed it was actually the dominant view but not in all. There are some really good books that have documented this.

Don't just tell me these things, offer some proof to back up what you're saying. I'm not going to just take your word for it.

Universal Salvation is only possible because of free will, Jesus said I lay my life down freely no man takes it from me, Jesus is our model the one true human who we are to be like, Man is not truly 100% human until he is in right relationship with God, with out free will we could not choose to have a pure love for God and align ourselves with him.

It's not reasonable at all to think that literally all people would choose to put their faith in Christ. Nowhere in scripture does it teach that someone gets a second chance to be saved after death. Universal salvation is clearly a false teaching.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Scripture is factual. . .'nuff said.

And your words are not … nuff said!

 

[Aseyesee]

Right. Paul describes it as a separation from the Lord's presence.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

So, we can see here that Paul describes the punishment as being separated from "the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power". I believe the torment they experience is not physical torture or anything like that, but rather feelings of sorrow and regret over rejecting the Lord and what He offered to them and missing out on everything He has for those who accept Him.

To me, this is a byproduct of a tree ... the whole earth is filled with his glory, just as there is no place God is not, which is not a truth to come, but a truth that has always been.

The spirit (of God) does not say who will ascend or who will descend, instead its says today's the day ... the day of the Lord is always near, in the valley of decision.

 

[Clare73]

And your words are not … nuff said!

Feel free to deal with Jas 3:6:

”The tongue is also a fire. It exists among our members as a world of malice, defiling the whole body and setting the entire course of our lives on fire, itself set on fire by Gehenna.“ (Jas 3:6)

It's a matter of grammar. . .

What is the subject of the sentence. . .back to which "itself" is referring?
"Itself" refers back to the subject "tongue". . .i.e., our tongue is a fire set by Gehenna.

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

Feel free to deal with Jas 3:6:

”The tongue is also a fire. It exists among our members as a world of malice, defiling the whole body and setting the entire course of our lives on fire, itself set on fire by Gehenna.“ (Jas 3:6)

It's a matter of grammar. . .

What is the subject of the sentence. . .back to which "itself" is referring?
"Itself" refers back to the subject "tongue". . .i.e., our tongue is a fire set by Gehenna.

Ok. I already told you I have no issue with the grammar so I’m not sure why you keep bring it up? Please point to where, in this discussion, you feel I have errored in my understanding of what James is saying? Also. Once gain … Please explain why you made the following comment: “Falsifying grammar doth not a heresy make. . .”

You are clearly hung up on my “grammar deficiencies“ to the point of accusing me of intentionally falsifying grammar but fail to point out, in our conversation, where I made this intentional falsification. Until you answer for yourself concerning this accusation there is really nothing more to discuss within the framework of this discussion.

I have no issue with James 3:6 so there is nothing for me with which to deal.

blessings

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Prove it. Show me.


Don't just tell me these things, offer some proof to back up what you're saying. I'm not going to just take your word for it.


It's not reasonable at all to think that literally all people would choose to put their faith in Christ. Nowhere in scripture does it teach that someone gets a second chance to be saved after death. Universal salvation is clearly a false teaching.

If you are really interested there are a lot of resources on the net to find out.
Why do you have so little faith that God could make a creation that would choose him if they truly saw him for the Loving God he is?
I have found that the people who do not understand how God can "draw all men unto himself"( John 12:32) are the very ones who have never had a experience with the Living God, and only have religion and a book to read, for them the idea that Gods will is for none to perish is hard to swallow, because they have made God in their own image.
Once you have experienced Gods Love its hard to see how anyone could rebel against this Love, that is what we are created for.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Prove it. Show me.


Don't just tell me these things, offer some proof to back up what you're saying. I'm not going to just take your word for it.


It's not reasonable at all to think that literally all people would choose to put their faith in Christ. Nowhere in scripture does it teach that someone gets a second chance to be saved after death. Universal salvation is clearly a false teaching.

If you are really interested here are some web sights you can read.
mercyonall.org
patheos.com
forbiddentheology.com
afkimel.wordpress.com Eclectric Orthodoxy/ Apokatastasis

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If you are really interested there are a lot of resources on the net to find out.

I can't seem to find anything that says many early church fathers believed in universal salvation. Show me where you get that idea from.

Why do you have so little faith that God could make a creation that would choose him if they truly saw him for the Loving God he is?

What kind of "choice" is it if everyone makes the same choice? That's nonsense.

I have found that the people who do not understand how God can "draw all men unto himself"( John 12:32) are the very ones who have never had a experience with the Living God, and only have religion and a book to read, for them the idea that Gods will is for none to perish is hard to swallow, because they have made God in their own image.

I have found that you have no idea of what you're talking about.

Once you have experienced Gods Love its hard to see how anyone could rebel against this Love, that is what we are created for.

So, how did Satan and the other fallen angels rebel against his love? Do you think Satan and the other fallen angels will end up being redeemed? It doesn't matter if you can understand why some rebel or not. The fact is that they do. Universal salvation is not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If you are really interested here are some web sights you can read.
mercyonall.org
patheos.com
forbiddentheology.com
afkimel.wordpress.com Eclectric Orthodoxy/ Apokatastasis

Is my request too difficult for you? You are the one who made the claim, so back it up. I'm not going to just go on those sites and try to find whatever it is on those sites that you think supports the idea that many of the early church fathers believed in universal salvation. Give me a link that takes me directly to a source which claims that. Give me some quotes. Back up your claim if you want to be taken seriously.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I can't seem to find anything that says many early church fathers believed in universal salvation. Show me where you get that idea from.


What kind of "choice" is it if everyone makes the same choice? That's nonsense.


I have found that you have no idea of what you're talking about.


So, how did Satan and the other fallen angels rebel against his love? Do you think Satan and the other fallen angels will end up being redeemed? It doesn't matter if you can understand why some rebel or not. The fact is that they do. Universal salvation is not taught anywhere in scripture.

Your logic makes no sense to me, if 10 people have a choice between eating chocolate cake or a cow patty and all 10 choose the cake, they didn't really make a choice? If all make the same choice that does not negate the choice.
I do not know why satan and the other angels that fell made the choice they did, but the heavenly beings are not human, we are in a different category than angels,
I do believe that God will restore even satan and the angels who rebelled, Acts 3:21 " In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things, the Greek word is Apokatastasis, this is the verse that many in the early church believed was a foundational verse. The restoration of all things is just what it says, Jesus will restore everything reversing what Adam did. I do not understand why so many people think that Adams sin was stronger than Jesuses death on the cross.
Universal salvation is all throughout the scriptures especially if you use the original Greek.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Is my request too difficult for you? You are the one who made the claim, so back it up. I'm not going to just go on those sites and try to find whatever it is on those sites that you think supports the idea that many of the early church fathers believed in universal salvation. Give me a link that takes me directly to a source which claims that. Give me some quotes. Back up your claim if you want to be taken seriously.

Quotes Index

The Church Fathers on Universalism
Quotes:​

The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great
There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. -- Augustine (354-430 A.D.)
For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them...the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them. --Diodore of Tarsus, 320-394 A.D.
And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled...just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. --Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)
Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable. --Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.)
These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. --Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19
The Word seems to me to lay down the doctrine of the perfect obliteration of wickedness, for if God shall be in all things that are, obviously wickedness shall not be in them. For it is necessary that at some time evil should be removed utterly and entirely from the realm of being.—St. Macrina the Blessed
In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one. --St. Jerome, 331-420
For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body. --Gregory of Nyssa, 335-390
The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. --Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428
We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. –Clement of Alexandria
Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. --Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)
Wherefore, that at the same time liberty of free-will should be left to nature and yet the evil be purged away, the wisdom of God discovered this plan; to suffer man to do what he would, that having tasted the evil which he desired, and learning by experience for what wretchedness he had bartered away the blessings he had, he might of his own will hasten back with desire to the first blessedness ...either being purged in this life through prayer and discipline, or after his departure hence through the furnace of cleansing fire.--Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.)
That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, "You will never get out until you hqave paid the last penny" unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. --Peter Chrysologus, 435
I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. --St. Jerome
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion. The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints." – COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. -- Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church
While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.--Athanasius, the Great Father of Orthodoxy
Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up... The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners. --Jerome
In the liberation of all no one remains a captive! At the time of the Lord's passion the devil alone was injured by losing all the of the captives he was keeping. --Didymus, 370 AD
While the devil imagined that he got a hold of Christ, he really lost all of those he was keeping. --St. Chrysostom, 398 AD
Stronger than all the evils in the soul is the Word, and the healing power that dwells in him, and this healing He applies, according to the will of God, to everyman. The consummation of all things is the destruction of evil…to quote Zephaniah: “My determination to gather the nations, that I am assemble the kings, to pour upon them mine indignation, even say all my fierce anger, for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent”…Consider carefully the promise, that all shall call upon the Name of the Lord, and serve him with one consent.—Origen (185 to 254 A.D.) He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.
The nations are gathered to the Judgment, that on them may be poured out the wrath of the fury of the Lord, and this in pity and with a design to heal. in order that every one may return to the confession of the Lord, that in Jesus' Name every knee may bow, and every tongue may confess that He is Lord. All God's enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies.—Jerome (340 to 420 A.D), commenting on Zephaniah 3:8-10
Mankind, being reclaimed from their sins, are to be subjected to Christ in he fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all. –Didymus the Blind
So then, when the end has been restored to the beginning, and the termination of things compared with their commencement, that condition of things will be re-established in which rational nature was placed, when it had no need to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; so that when all feeling of wickedness has been removed, and the individual has been purified and cleansed, He who alone is the one good God becomes to him "all," and that not in the case of a few individuals, or of a considerable number, but He Himself is "all in all." And when death shall no longer anywhere exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then verily God will be "all in all" --Origen, De Prinicipiis, 3.6.3. (Origen founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.)
The Son "breaking in pieces" His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jeremiah 18;6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state. --Eusebius of Caesarea (65 to 340 A.D). Bishop of Caesarea
Our Savior has appointed two kinds of resurrection in the Apocalypse. 'Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection,' for such come to grace without the judgment. As for those who do not come to the first, but are reserved unto the second resurrection, these shall be disciplined until their appointed times, between the first and the second resurrection.-- Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397 A.D.)
We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued.... for Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. --Origen (185 to 254 A.D.) He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.
For it is needful that evil should some day be wholly and absolutely removed out of the circle of being. --Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church
In the present life God is in all, for His nature is without limits, but he is not all in all. But in the coming life, when mortality is at an end and immortality granted, and sin has no longer any place, God will be all in all. For the Lord, who loves man, punishes medicinally, that He may check the course of impeity. --Theodoret the Blessed, 387-458
When death shall no longer exist, or the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then truly God will be all in all. --Origen
All men are Christ's, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some and the rest not. For how is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all?—Clement of Alexandria
Many more quotes to come!

BACK TO QUOTES INDEX​

Quotes Index

 

[Henrye]

John 3:16-18 nuff said. There is NO salvation without faith in Christ.

Thread over lol

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Your logic makes no sense to me, if 10 people have a choice between eating chocolate cake or a cow patty and all 10 choose the cake, they didn't really make a choice? If all make the same choice that does not negate the choice.

It's not logical to think that billions of people will all make the same choice. If that makes no sense to you, then there's probably nothing I can do to make you understand.

I do not know why satan and the other angels that fell made the choice they did, but the heavenly beings are not human, we are in a different category than angels,

Don't just swipe that under the rug. I know we are not angels, but it's still worth taking into consideration why they did what they did. You believe they had free will when they made that choice, don't you? If so, then it's worth taking into consideration why they made that choice despite actually being in the presence of God.

I do believe that God will restore even satan and the angels who rebelled, Acts 3:21 " In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things, the Greek word is Apokatastasis, this is the verse that many in the early church believed was a foundational verse. The restoration of all things is just what it says, Jesus will restore everything reversing what Adam did. I do not understand why so many people think that Adams sin was stronger than Jesuses death on the cross.
Universal salvation is all throughout the scriptures especially if you use the original Greek.

No, it is not. You are ignoring a great deal of scripture. Including Revelation 14:9-11 and Revelation 20:10 which indicate that unbelievers as well as Satan (and presumably the other fallen angels) will be in torment forever.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Quotes Index

The Church Fathers on Universalism
Quotes:​

The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great
There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. -- Augustine (354-430 A.D.)
For the wicked there are punishments, not perpetural, however, lest the immortality prepared for them should be a disadvantage, but they are to be purified for a brief period according to the amount of malice in their works. They shall therefore suffer punishment for a short space, but immortal blessedness having no end awaits them...the penalties to be inflicted for their many and grave sins are very far surpassed by the magnitude of the mercy to be showed to them. --Diodore of Tarsus, 320-394 A.D.
And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled...just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. --Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)
Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable. --Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.)
These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. --Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19
The Word seems to me to lay down the doctrine of the perfect obliteration of wickedness, for if God shall be in all things that are, obviously wickedness shall not be in them. For it is necessary that at some time evil should be removed utterly and entirely from the realm of being.—St. Macrina the Blessed
In the end and consummation of the Universe all are to be restored into their original harmonious state, and we all shall be made one body and be united once more into a perfect man and the prayer of our Savior shall be fulfilled that all may be one. --St. Jerome, 331-420
For it is evident that God will in truth be all in all when there shall be no evil in existence, when every created being is at harmony with iteself and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord; when every creature shall have been made one body. --Gregory of Nyssa, 335-390
The wicked who have committed evil the whole period of their lives shall be punished till they learn that, by continuing in sin, they only continue in misery. And when, by this means, they shall have been brought to fear God, and to regard Him with good will, they shall obtain the enjoyment of His grace. --Theodore of Mopsuestia, 350-428
We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. –Clement of Alexandria
Do not suppose that the soul is punished for endless eons (apeirou aionas) in Tartarus. Very properly, the soul is not punished to gratify the revenge of the divinity, but for the sake of healing. But we say that the soul is punished for an aionion period (aionios) calling its life and its allotted period of punishment, its aeon. --Olnmpiodorus (AD 550)
Wherefore, that at the same time liberty of free-will should be left to nature and yet the evil be purged away, the wisdom of God discovered this plan; to suffer man to do what he would, that having tasted the evil which he desired, and learning by experience for what wretchedness he had bartered away the blessings he had, he might of his own will hasten back with desire to the first blessedness ...either being purged in this life through prayer and discipline, or after his departure hence through the furnace of cleansing fire.--Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.)
That in the world to come, those who have done evil all their life long, will be made worthy of the sweetness of the Divine bounty. For never would Christ have said, "You will never get out until you hqave paid the last penny" unless it were possible for us to get cleansed when we paid the debt. --Peter Chrysologus, 435
I know that most persons understand by the story of Nineveh and its king, the ultimate forgiveness of the devil and all rational creatures. --St. Jerome
"In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ's blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other's promotion. The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints." – COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)
Our Lord is the One who delivers man [all men], and who heals the inventor of evil himself. -- Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church
While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.--Athanasius, the Great Father of Orthodoxy
Our Lord descends, and was shut up in the eternal bars, in order that He might set free all who had been shut up... The Lord descended to the place of punishment and torment, in which was the rich man, in order to liberate the prisoners. --Jerome
In the liberation of all no one remains a captive! At the time of the Lord's passion the devil alone was injured by losing all the of the captives he was keeping. --Didymus, 370 AD
While the devil imagined that he got a hold of Christ, he really lost all of those he was keeping. --St. Chrysostom, 398 AD
Stronger than all the evils in the soul is the Word, and the healing power that dwells in him, and this healing He applies, according to the will of God, to everyman. The consummation of all things is the destruction of evil…to quote Zephaniah: “My determination to gather the nations, that I am assemble the kings, to pour upon them mine indignation, even say all my fierce anger, for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of my jealousy. For then will I turn to the people a pure language that they may all call upon the name of the Lord, to serve Him with one consent”…Consider carefully the promise, that all shall call upon the Name of the Lord, and serve him with one consent.—Origen (185 to 254 A.D.) He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.
The nations are gathered to the Judgment, that on them may be poured out the wrath of the fury of the Lord, and this in pity and with a design to heal. in order that every one may return to the confession of the Lord, that in Jesus' Name every knee may bow, and every tongue may confess that He is Lord. All God's enemies shall perish, not that they cease to exist, but cease to be enemies.—Jerome (340 to 420 A.D), commenting on Zephaniah 3:8-10
Mankind, being reclaimed from their sins, are to be subjected to Christ in he fullness of the dispensation instituted for the salvation of all. –Didymus the Blind
So then, when the end has been restored to the beginning, and the termination of things compared with their commencement, that condition of things will be re-established in which rational nature was placed, when it had no need to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; so that when all feeling of wickedness has been removed, and the individual has been purified and cleansed, He who alone is the one good God becomes to him "all," and that not in the case of a few individuals, or of a considerable number, but He Himself is "all in all." And when death shall no longer anywhere exist, nor the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then verily God will be "all in all" --Origen, De Prinicipiis, 3.6.3. (Origen founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.)
The Son "breaking in pieces" His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jeremiah 18;6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state. --Eusebius of Caesarea (65 to 340 A.D). Bishop of Caesarea
Our Savior has appointed two kinds of resurrection in the Apocalypse. 'Blessed is he that hath part in the first resurrection,' for such come to grace without the judgment. As for those who do not come to the first, but are reserved unto the second resurrection, these shall be disciplined until their appointed times, between the first and the second resurrection.-- Ambrose, Bishop of Milan (340-397 A.D.)
We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued.... for Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. --Origen (185 to 254 A.D.) He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.
For it is needful that evil should some day be wholly and absolutely removed out of the circle of being. --Gregory of Nyssa (332-398 A.D.), leading theologian of the Eastern Church
In the present life God is in all, for His nature is without limits, but he is not all in all. But in the coming life, when mortality is at an end and immortality granted, and sin has no longer any place, God will be all in all. For the Lord, who loves man, punishes medicinally, that He may check the course of impeity. --Theodoret the Blessed, 387-458
When death shall no longer exist, or the sting of death, nor any evil at all, then truly God will be all in all. --Origen
All men are Christ's, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some and the rest not. For how is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all?—Clement of Alexandria
Many more quotes to come!

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Quotes Index

Not all of the people you quoted here actually believed in universal salvation, so what are you trying to pull here?

For example, Augustine saying "There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments." does not mean he was promoting universal salvation. He was just indicating he didn't believe in eternal torment.

So, you are being deceptive by quoting him as if he believed in universal salvation when, in reality, he did not.

Augustine also said this:

"By all men whom God would have to be saved, we are not to understand every individual of mankind, since it is not the will of God that all men, in this large sense, should be saved; for it is his will that some men should be damned, and that very justly, for their sins and transgressions".

You also quoted Athanasius as saying: "While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.". Why did you quote him when he did not believe in universal salvation? He also said this: "what is not assumed by God is not saved". He emphasized a belief in free will, but not universal salvation.

It's also highly doubtful that Iraneaus believed in universal salvation. So, you are reading things into some of these quotes that aren't there.

So, these quotes do not prove that a majority of early church fathers believed in universal salvation, as you claim. I know some believed that and didn't say otherwise, but where is your proof that a majority of them did? You have no proof of that.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

It's not logical to think that billions of people will all make the same choice. If that makes no sense to you, then there's probably nothing I can do to make you understand.


Don't just swipe that under the rug. I know we are not angels, but it's still worth taking into consideration why they did what they did. You believe they had free will when they made that choice, don't you? If so, then it's worth taking into consideration why they made that choice despite actually being in the presence of God.


No, it is not. You are ignoring a great deal of scripture. Including Revelation 14:9-11 and Revelation 20:10 which indicate that unbelievers as well as Satan (and presumably the other fallen angels) will be in torment forever.

Yes it is logical that billions of people would make the same choice if that choice was the one that made them complete, we were created for and to love God, that is why God created us. Do you not think that God had a plan when he created humanity, or did he just throw out all the pieces and they landed the way they are and now he is trying to salvage as much as he can? If I could take a billion people and have each one choose to spend even one million years in a burning house where they would feel the pain and agony of burning but never die it would just keep going, or they can go into a house that has all the comforts they could desire at no cost to them, just pure enjoyment, if each one was truly free to make a choice and they were in their sane mind, you think it would be illogical that none would choose to burn? If that makes no sense to you, then there's probably nothing I can do to make you understand.
God created us for a purpose, why is that so hard to get, Isa 14:24 " Just as I have intended so it will be, just as I have planned, it will happen." Isa 46:11 " Indeed , I have spoken, indeed I shall bring it to pass! I have formed a plan indeed, I shall do it." Jer32:27 " I am Yahweh, God of all flesh, is anything to difficult for me?"
Luke 14:28 " Who of you who wants to build a tower, first to sit down and count the cost to see if he has what it takes to complete it,"
Do you not think that God would not do what scripture says?
As for the angel thing, I don't just sweep it under the rug, my opinion is that because God has a telos that is 1 Cor 15:28" That God may be all in all" , I believe that the satan and the fallen angels were created for the very role they are playing, they freely chose what they did, but God in his wisdom, arranged things so that they would do exactly as they did, this is all part of the plan.
As far as torment forever, the eternal torment is not in scripture, that is a pagan idea that Augustine brought into the church, in the original Greek the Greek word for eternal is only used once in the New Testament Jude 1:6 talking about the chains that held the fallen angels.
Aion/ Aionios are the Greek word that is mistranslated in most English translations is not eternal, but of the age or pertaining to the age.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Not all of the people you quoted here actually believed in universal salvation, so what are you trying to pull here?

For example, Augustine saying "There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments." does not mean he was promoting universal salvation. He was just indicating he didn't believe in eternal torment.

So, you are being deceptive by quoting him as if he believed in universal salvation when, in reality, he did not.

Augustine also said this:

"By all men whom God would have to be saved, we are not to understand every individual of mankind, since it is not the will of God that all men, in this large sense, should be saved; for it is his will that some men should be damned, and that very justly, for their sins and transgressions".

You also quoted Athanasius as saying: "While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.". Why did you quote him when he did not believe in universal salvation? He also said this: "what is not assumed by God is not saved". He emphasized a belief in free will, but not universal salvation.

It's also highly doubtful that Iraneaus believed in universal salvation. So, you are reading things into some of these quotes that aren't there.

So, these quotes do not prove that a majority of early church fathers believed in universal salvation, as you claim. I know some believed that and didn't say otherwise, but where is your proof that a majority of them did? You have no proof of that.

No one said Augustine was a universalist, the point of his quote was that," there are very many", that was the point to show it was not just a few on the fringe.
This is just a page of quotes thats all take it for what you will.
You may not be ready for the truth, but if and when you are, then you will see.
This is Gods plan, most will not see it in this age, thats ok, Gods plan will come about and in the end 1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No one said Augustine was a universalist, the point of his quote was that," there are very many", that was the point to show it was not just a few on the fringe.
This is just a page of quotes thats all take it for what you will.
You may not be ready for the truth, but if and when you are, then you will see.

LOL. I have the truth and it's someting you don't accept. Maybe the thought of someone being lost forever is too much for you to handle emotionally? Not sure what the reason is for your believing in that, but you are believing in a false doctrine called universal salvation that is a doctrine of demons. If universal salvation was true then there is no point to evangelism! Scripture saying today is the day and now is the time of salvation would not be true in that case (2 Corinthians 6:2) because in that case it would also be true that tomorrow is the day of salvation and there is no urgency to repenting and believing now, despite scripture saying that now is the time of salvation.

This is Gods plan, most will not see it in this age, thats ok, Gods plan will come about and in the end 1Cor 15:28 God will be all in all.

No, it is not. You are believing a lie.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

LOL. I have the truth and it's someting you don't accept. Maybe the thought of someone being lost forever is too much for you to handle emotionally? Not sure what the reason is for your believing in that, but you are believing in a false doctrine called universal salvation that is a doctrine of demons. If universal salvation was true then there is no point to evangelism! Scripture saying today is the day and now is the time of salvation would not be true in that case (2 Corinthians 6:2) because in that case it would also be true that tomorrow is the day of salvation and there is no urgency to repenting and believing now, despite scripture saying that now is the time of salvation.


No, it is not. You are believing a lie.

Let me introduce you to the God of all creation, Yahweh, He is Love, Life and Light in whom is no darkness, he is not a god who loves , but he is Love its his essence, his nature, he can do nothing that is not out of Love. God/Jesus created the cosmos ; John 1:3-5 "All things came to be through him, and without him came to be not a single thing that has come to be. In him was life, and this life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not conquer it."
2 Cor 5:19 " in Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation."
Gods will is that none be lost 1 Tim 2:3-6/ 2 Pet 3:9 ", you know the doctrine of demons" the God who said " who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, " / "but he is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
1 Cor 15:22 " as in Adam all died as in Jesus all will live / Rom 11:32 : For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all"
Jesus said if you have known me you will know the Father, I and the Father are one, to know the Father we must know Jesus and have his heart, which is the Fathers heart. This is most important to have the heart of the Father, which is Love, we are to look to Jesus to see the Fathers heart, how did Jesus live?
We are to have the mind of Christ and his heart, what did he do to the women caught in adultery ? He did not stone her as the law said, but forgave her, what did he say to James and John when they wanted God to strike down the Samaritans, who disrespected him, you do not know what Spirit I am from. What did Jesus do to the very people who nailed him to the cross ? Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. That is the heart of Jesus which is the heart is God.
So " Maybe the thought of someone being lost forever is too much for you to handle emotionally" No, my flesh, that which is opposed to Gods heart, would love to see those who I don't like or think they deserve forgiveness burn forever, but that is not the heart of the Father demonstrated to us by Jesus.
I strive daily to bring myself more and more into conformity with the heart and mind of Christ, and that is to Love your enemy and to pray for those who persecute you, our flesh must die, as we become more and more conformed to Jesus.
This is the God I serve, and he will reconcile his whole creation in Jesus.
As for the point of no reason for evangelism, Jesus already took care of the afterlife, the ages to come, but we still have to live in this fallen world and the more people who follow Jesus the better out time down here will be, also God is infinite Love and when you experience that love you want to share it with everyone because you want all to know love, peace, joy and contentment, that's the river of life that is supposed to flow out from us.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Let me introduce you to the God of all creation, Yahweh, He is Love, Life and Light in whom is no darkness, he is not a god who loves , but he is Love its his essence, his nature, he can do nothing that is not out of Love. God/Jesus created the cosmos ; John 1:3-5 "All things came to be through him, and without him came to be not a single thing that has come to be. In him was life, and this life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not conquer it."
2 Cor 5:19 " in Christ God was reconciling the cosmos to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation."
Gods will is that none be lost 1 Tim 2:3-6/ 2 Pet 3:9 ", you know the doctrine of demons" the God who said " who will have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth, " / "but he is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Do you just always ignore context? Looks like it. Do you not understand that His longsuffering would not be necessary if everyone ends up being saved? He is longsuffering because He gives people plenty of opportunities to be saved, but He doesn't give people endless opportunity to repent and be saved. Scripture never teaches that. Scripture does not teach that anyone who is cast into the lake of fire (the second death) is given a chance to repent after that.

1 Cor 15:22 " as in Adam all died as in Jesus all will live / Rom 11:32 : For God has committed them all to disobedience, that he might have mercy on all"
Jesus said if you have known me you will know the Father, I and the Father are one, to know the Father we must know Jesus and have his heart, which is the Fathers heart. This is most important to have the heart of the Father, which is Love, we are to look to Jesus to see the Fathers heart, how did Jesus live?
We are to have the mind of Christ and his heart, what did he do to the women caught in adultery ? He did not stone her as the law said, but forgave her, what did he say to James and John when they wanted God to strike down the Samaritans, who disrespected him, you do not know what Spirit I am from. What did Jesus do to the very people who nailed him to the cross ? Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing. Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you. That is the heart of Jesus which is the heart is God.
So " Maybe the thought of someone being lost forever is too much for you to handle emotionally" No, my flesh, that which is opposed to Gods heart, would love to see those who I don't like or think they deserve forgiveness burn forever, but that is not the heart of the Father demonstrated to us by Jesus.
I strive daily to bring myself more and more into conformity with the heart and mind of Christ, and that is to Love your enemy and to pray for those who persecute you, our flesh must die, as we become more and more conformed to Jesus.
This is the God I serve, and he will reconcile his whole creation in Jesus.
As for the point of no reason for evangelism, Jesus already took care of the afterlife, the ages to come, but we still have to live in this fallen world and the more people who follow Jesus the better out time down here will be, also God is infinite Love and when you experience that love you want to share it with everyone because you want all to know love, peace, joy and contentment, that's the river of life that is supposed to flow out from us.

That was a pretty lame argument for the purpose of evangelism according to your false doctrine. The reality is that there is an urgency to evangelism because today is the day and now is the time of salvation! (2 Corinthians 6:2). You don't know if tomorrow, or even the next moment, will come. There are no second chances for salvation after death! Scripture never teaches such a thing.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Do you just always ignore context? Looks like it. Do you not understand that His longsuffering would not be necessary if everyone ends up being saved? He is longsuffering because He gives people plenty of opportunities to be saved, but He doesn't give people endless opportunity to repent and be saved. Scripture never teaches that. Scripture does not teach that anyone who is cast into the lake of fire (the second death) is given a chance to repent after that.


That was a pretty lame argument for the purpose of evangelism according to your false doctrine. The reality is that there is an urgency to evangelism because today is the day and now is the time of salvation! (2 Corinthians 6:2). You don't know if tomorrow, or even the next moment, will come. There are no second chances for salvation after death! Scripture never teaches such a thing.

That's OK when the student is ready the teaching will come.