Nullifying Original Sin - The Distinction between universal resurrection and Universalism

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Nothing in your post is on topic. If you want to engage in faith vs works discussions, free will discussions, or your Calvinistic/Reformed theology talking points, start a new thread and tag me in it. The topic here is Original Sin and universal resurrection.

I'm good with the scriptural counters I put up. That's kind of the point of trying to kite these new and novel theories ain't it?

 

[Gup20]

I'm good with the scriptural counters I put up. That's kind of the point of trying to kite these new and novel theories ain't it?

Fine. This is off topic, but if you must clear this up before proceeding... then here you go.

Free will​

Deu 30:19 NASB95 - 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Free will is a misnomer. The term "libertarian free will" (LFW) is closer to the truth. Our will is incapable of causing. For example, we can't, by our will, choose to reject God AND have eternal life. We may only choose from the list of prepared (predestined) options. We have enough free moral agency to choose between the specifically delineated options God has given us. The choice is not "good vs evil" or "God vs not God." The choice is life vs death. The whole chapter of Deuteronomy 30 speaks to this choice. v1, v15, and v19 all repeat the refrain that life and death are a choice God has set before man, not a choice God makes for him.

A good analogy is breakfast. Am I sovereign over breakfast if I give my children a choice of which breakfast to eat? Lets say I go to my kids and say, "I have set before you on this table oatmeal and pancakes. You should choose the pancakes." I bought the ingredients, and I prepared the meals, and I commanded them to choose. Do my kids have "free will?" No, they cannot choose no breakfast, and they cannot choose steak and eggs. They do not have a will that causes new options. However, they are capable and able to choose from the prepared options I have given them (LFW), and no matter which choice they make, I am still sovereign over breakfast. Because I have prepared the meals and I have commanded them to choose, I do not have to dictate which child chooses which breakfast to remain sovereign over breakfast.

Deu 30 tells us:

Deu 30:11-15 NASB95 - 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;​

The choice is not too difficult for us, or out of our reach. The choice is not made by God in heaven. We do not need the Holy Spirit to come down from heaven and make us hear the gospel to obey it. Paul interprets the choice offered in Deu 30 for us, so we don't have to guess.

Rom 10:5-8 NASB95 - 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,​

So Paul unequivocally tells us that the choice between life and death offered in Deuteronomy 30 is regarding "the righteousness based on faith" and was "the gospel they were preaching." He identifies the one whom we should not say comes down from heaven and makes us hear the gospel as "God." We are not too depraved nor is it beyond our ability to choose life or death.

Works vs Faith​

It is false that works vs faith represents "action vs inaction." Rather, works vs faith represents the two covenants for justification to righteousness.

Rom 3:28 NASB95 - 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.​

​

Gal 2:16 NASB95 - 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.​

​

Gal 4:24, 28 NASB95 - 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. ... 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.​

So to be justified as righteous, there are two possible ways; one may be justified by "works of the law" or by "faith in Christ." This is to say there are two covenants for justification to righteousness. The Abrahamic covenant of righteousness through faith or the Mosaic covenant of righteousness through works. So faith vs works is not action vs inaction, but rather covenant vs covenant... Abrahamic vs Mosaic.

Gal 3:6-9, 16 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

​

Gen 15:5-6 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.​

​

Rom 4:13, 16-19 - 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR SEED BE." 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb;​

God preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, and when he believed, God credited him with Christ's righteousness for that faith. This is the Biblical basis for righteousness through faith. This came 430 years BEFORE the law of Moses was given, so the righteousness which comes through faith is truly APART FROM the law - for what law of Moses did Abraham follow to be made righteous? None! It didn't yet exist.

Jesus Himself confirmed Abraham's faith in Him:

Jhn 8:39, 56 NASB95 - 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. ... 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [it] and was glad."​

Just as Gal 3:6-9 says, if you want to be considered the descendant of Abraham and inherit the promises given TO HIM AND TO HIS SEED, then you must do what Abraham did. What did Abraham do? He believed the gospel of Jesus Christ (Gal 3:8, 16). Therefore we understand that Abraham's covenant is - as Rom 4:13 says - the covenant of righteousness through faith, whereas Moses' covenant is the covenant of righteousness through works of the law.

Rom 4:9-13 NASB95 - 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.​

In John 8:39 it says we must "do the deeds of Abraham" and here in Rom 4:12 it says we must follow in the steps of the faith of Abraham. Therefore, we can see that "faith vs works" is not "action vs inaction" but rather deeds of the Abrahamic covenant vs deeds of the Mosaic covenant. The deed of the Abrahamic covenant is to believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We see this qualification as a descendant of a person when you do what they did in other places in scripture as well. For example:

​

Jhn 8:44 NASB95 - 44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] for he is a liar and the father of lies.​

​

1Pe 3:6 NASB95 - 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.​

In both of these cases, a person is qualified as an heir or child of that matriarch or patriarch when they do what that matriarch or patriarch did. This, for example, is why those who reject the gospel are sent to the Lake of Fire, even though it was prepared for the Devil and his angels (Mat 25:41)... because they qualify as a seed of the devil and inherit his destiny. We too, if we have the same faith in the same gospel as Abraham believed in, qualify as his descendants and become heirs of his destiny. But Abraham believed whilst he was "as good as dead." Therefore, we must have unregenerate faith in the gospel, just like Abraham did to qualify as his descendants and heirs of his blessing.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

Fine. This is off topic, but if you must clear this up before proceeding... then here you go.

Free will​

Deu 30:19 NASB95 - 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Free will is a misnomer. The term "libertarian free will" (LFW) is closer to the truth. Our will is incapable of causing. For example, we can't, by our will, choose to reject God AND have eternal life. We may only choose from the list of prepared (predestined) options. We have enough free moral agency to choose between the specifically delineated options God has given us. The choice is not "good vs evil" or "God vs not God." The choice is life vs death. The whole chapter of Deuteronomy 30 speaks to this choice. v1, v15, and v19 all repeat the refrain that life and death are a choice God has set before man, not a choice God makes for him.

A good analogy is breakfast. Am I sovereign over breakfast if I give my children a choice of which breakfast to eat? Lets say I go to my kids and say, "I have set before you on this table oatmeal and pancakes. You should choose the pancakes." I bought the ingredients, and I prepared the meals, and I commanded them to choose. Do my kids have "free will?" No, they cannot choose no breakfast, and they cannot choose steak and eggs. They do not have a will that causes new options. However, they are capable and able to choose from the prepared options I have given them (LFW), and no matter which choice they make, I am still sovereign over breakfast. Because I have prepared the meals and I have commanded them to choose, I do not have to dictate which child chooses which breakfast to remain sovereign over breakfast.

Deu 30 tells us:

Deu 30:11-15 NASB95 - 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;​

The choice is not too difficult for us, or out of our reach. The choice is not made by God in heaven. We do not need the Holy Spirit to come down from heaven and make us hear the gospel to obey it. Paul interprets the choice offered in Deu 30 for us, so we don't have to guess.

Rom 10:5-8 NASB95 - 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,​

So Paul unequivocally tells us that the choice between life and death offered in Deuteronomy 30 is regarding "the righteousness based on faith" and was "the gospel they were preaching." He identifies the one whom we should not say comes down from heaven and makes us hear the gospel as "God." We are not too depraved nor is it beyond our ability to choose life or death.

Works vs Faith​

It is false that works vs faith represents "action vs inaction." Rather, works vs faith represents the two covenants for justification to righteousness.

Rom 3:28 NASB95 - 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.​

​

Gal 2:16 NASB95 - 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.​

​

Gal 4:24, 28 NASB95 - 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. ... 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.​

So to be justified as righteous, there are two possible ways; one may be justified by "works of the law" or by "faith in Christ." This is to say there are two covenants for justification to righteousness. The Abrahamic covenant of righteousness through faith or the Mosaic covenant of righteousness through works. So faith vs works is not action vs inaction, but rather covenant vs covenant... Abrahamic vs Mosaic.

Gal 3:6-9, 16 NASB95 - 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. ... 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

​

Gen 15:5-6 - 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your seed be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.​

​

Rom 4:13, 16-19 - 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR SEED BE." 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb;​

God preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to Abraham, and when he believed, God credited him with Christ's righteousness for that faith. This is the Biblical basis for righteousness through faith. This came 430 years BEFORE the law of Moses was given, so the righteousness which comes through faith is truly APART FROM the law - for what law of Moses did Abraham follow to be made righteous? None! It didn't yet exist.

Jesus Himself confirmed Abraham's faith in Him:

Jhn 8:39, 56 NASB95 - 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. ... 56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw [it] and was glad."​

Just as Gal 3:6-9 says, if you want to be considered the descendant of Abraham and inherit the promises given TO HIM AND TO HIS SEED, then you must do what Abraham did. What did Abraham do? He believed the gospel of Jesus Christ (Gal 3:8, 16). Therefore we understand that Abraham's covenant is - as Rom 4:13 says - the covenant of righteousness through faith, whereas Moses' covenant is the covenant of righteousness through works of the law.

Rom 4:9-13 NASB95 - 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.​

In John 8:39 it says we must "do the deeds of Abraham" and here in Rom 4:12 it says we must follow in the steps of the faith of Abraham. Therefore, we can see that "faith vs works" is not "action vs inaction" but rather deeds of the Abrahamic covenant vs deeds of the Mosaic covenant. The deed of the Abrahamic covenant is to believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

We see this qualification as a descendant of a person when you do what they did in other places in scripture as well. For example:

​

Jhn 8:44 NASB95 - 44 "You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [nature,] for he is a liar and the father of lies.​

​

1Pe 3:6 NASB95 - 6 just as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord, and you have become her children if you do what is right without being frightened by any fear.​

In both of these cases, a person is qualified as an heir or child of that matriarch or patriarch when they do what that matriarch or patriarch did. This, for example, is why those who reject the gospel are sent to the Lake of Fire, even though it was prepared for the Devil and his angels (Mat 25:41)... because they qualify as a seed of the devil and inherit his destiny. We too, if we have the same faith in the same gospel as Abraham believed in, qualify as his descendants and become heirs of his destiny. But Abraham believed whilst he was "as good as dead." Therefore, we must have unregenerate faith in the gospel, just like Abraham did to qualify as his descendants and heirs of his blessing.

And of course zero of the above addresses the specific counters to your novel theory.

So we can leave it at that. The scriptural counters to your claims are always readily available

 

[Gup20]

And of course zero of the above addresses the specific counters to your novel theory.

So we can leave it at that. The scriptural counters to your claims are always readily available

I dont' see any.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

I dont' see any.

I'd suggest more rigorous testing before floating. Anyone can ride on their one person imagination boat. Doesn't mean it will float anywhere else

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I agree, all mankind is descended from Adam. Yet this does not answer the question of where descent is delineated in 1Co 15 as the primary factor in death being passed. The term "descended" does not appear in 1Co 15. In fact, if you read Genesis 3 you will see there was a universal curse put upon Adam, Eve, their offspring, the animals, the plants, and the ground of the whole earth. The ground, plants, and animals all preceded Adam in creation and were not descended from Adam, yet ALL experienced death as a result of Adam's single transgression.

IN CHRIST we see a restoration of ALL the things universally and corporately cursed in Adam. For example:

Isa 11:1-10 NASB95 - 1 Then a shoot will spring from the stem of Jesse, And a branch from his roots will bear fruit. 2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him, The spirit of wisdom and understanding, The spirit of counsel and strength, The spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. 3 And He will delight in the fear of the LORD, And He will not judge by what His eyes see, Nor make a decision by what His ears hear; 4 But with righteousness He will judge the poor, And decide with fairness for the afflicted of the earth; And He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, And with the breath of His lips He will slay the wicked. 5 Also righteousness will be the belt about His loins, And faithfulness the belt about His waist. 6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. 7 Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. 9 They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea. 10 Then in that day The nations will resort to the root of Jesse, Who will stand as a signal for the peoples; And His resting place will be glorious.​

As a result of Christ, there is not only a restoration of Adam and his descendants, but of the animals and the earth itself. Do the animals inherit their redemption in Christ because of descent from Adam? No. Are the animals "atoned for" in Christ? No. Yet, there is a restoration of the animals from Adam's judgment because of Christ as we can see in Isa 11 above.

So it is more accurate to say that just as there was a corporate effect of ALL things in Adam, there is also a corporate effect of ALL things in Christ. Just as there was a universal curse which affected everything because of Adam, there is a universal blessing which affected everything because of Christ insomuch as because of Christ, Adam's universal, corporate judgment has been nullified and vacated so that individual judgments may take its place. As long as there are none who are righteous... not even one... a corporate, universal judgment is sufficient. But as soon as a single, righteous One appears, it means a universal, corporate judgment is no longer sufficient. So that universal corporate judgment has to be nullified, and in place of that judgment we must have a new, individual judgment which can separate the righteous from the wicked. In abolishing Adam's judgement, ALL that was affected by his judgment (Adam, Eve, their offspring, the animals, the plants, the ground of the whole earth) is restored so that they may face individual judgments. In the individual judgments of the GWTJ, some will be judged as righteous (those with faith in Christ), an some will be judged as unrighteous (those without faith in Christ). Because final judgment (the GWTJ) follows the universal resurrection, Universalism (universal salvation) is not implicated by a universal resurrection. You will have a new judgment SUBSEQUENT to the universal resurrection of all things which will condemn many to eternal damnation.

​

Rom 8:20-22 NASB95 - 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.​

Great insight I really enjoyed what you posted. Why do you equate the judgement with “eternal damnation” , I can find no scripture that says man only can put their trust in Jesus while in the mortal body. If you would translate the Greek word translated eternal as “ of the age” then the judgement is of the age which is to refine them look at Zech 13:9 this shows Gods heart to test and refine then they will call on his name. When this is completed the scripture that says every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Then all scripture is completed just like 1Cor 15:28 and God will be all in all . If there is eternal damnation and not judgement that leads to redemption then scripture is not complete. This is why I don’t believe “eternal “ is a good translation.

 

[Der Alte]

Great insight I really enjoyed what you posted. Why do you equate the judgement with “eternal damnation” , I can find no scripture that says man only can put their trust in Jesus while in the mortal body. If you would translate the Greek word translated eternal as “ of the age” then the judgement is of the age which is to refine them look at Zech 13:9 this shows Gods heart to test and refine then they will call on his name. When this is completed the scripture that says every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Then all scripture is completed just like 1Cor 15:28 and God will be all in all . If there is eternal damnation and not judgement that leads to redemption then scripture is not complete. This is why I don’t believe “eternal “ is a good translation.

"If you would translate the Greek word translated eternal as 'of the age.'" The word translated "eternal" is "aionios" and as I have shown in the below linked posts the correct translation is in fact "eternal." "aionios" is an adjective. It should not require 3 words to translate. "of" is a preposition, "the" is a definite article. "age" is a noun.
Two vss. from the list of 20+ below

John 3:15-16​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.​

In these 2 vss. Jesus pairs "should not perish" with "aionios life," twice. Should not perish life sounds eternal to me.
Eighteen more vss, which clearly show that aioinios means eternal at below link

The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

So in other words, we have different sets of Greek scholars who oppose each other. Here's the problem. It appears that the meaning of the word was changed over the centuries with the influence of Latin thinking into the Church. Example: The word "gay" used to carry the connotation of happy or...

www.christianforums.com

Ignoring my posts does not show that my posts are incorrect.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

"If you would translate the Greek word translated eternal as 'of the age.'" The word translated "eternal" is "aionios" and as I have shown in the below linked posts the correct translation is in fact "eternal." "aionios" is an adjective. It should not require 3 words to translate. "of" is a preposition, "the" is a definite article. "age" is a noun.
Two vss. from the list of 20+ below

John 3:15-16​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionios] life.​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionios] life.​

In these 2 vss. Jesus pairs "should not perish" with "aionios life," twice. Should not perish life sounds eternal to me.
Eighteen more vss, which clearly show that aioinios means eternal at below link

The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

So in other words, we have different sets of Greek scholars who oppose each other. Here's the problem. It appears that the meaning of the word was changed over the centuries with the influence of Latin thinking into the Church. Example: The word "gay" used to carry the connotation of happy or...

www.christianforums.com

Ignoring my posts does not show that my posts are incorrect.

If you think that I am ignoring your posts you are incorrect, do I read the same cut and paste that you do yes they are your same options over and over and I align better with the early church fathers than yours . I do not always respond because I am getting the idea that you have no intention to try to understand what others think , you have admitted that you have not read one book about why those of us believe that Christian Universal Redemption is all about. I think you like to push people’s buttons and don’t even try to understand why people have a different view than yours. If you would honestly have conversations with people understanding that scripture is not always clear to the exact meaning that of what God was trying to say and have a conversation instead of a lecture then I would engage more often but sadly that is not the case as far as I see it. Others see scripture differently and as scripture says we sharpen each other by looking at all the possibilities and to see which align with our view of God and what he has taught in scripture and in the church and in human history.

 

[Der Alte]

If you think that I am ignoring your posts you are incorrect, do I read the same cut and paste that you do yes they are your same options over and over and I align better with the early church fathers than yours .

I have never seen you quote the ECF. Cut and paste usually implies copying someone else's work and displaying it as one's own. If anything I post can be shown to be incorrect, please do so. So far no one has done so. I don't mean, e.g. "Scholar 'X' said aionios never means eternal." If any ECF clearly shows me to be incorrect please share it with me. See e.g.

Epistle to Polycarp Ignatius chap 2 Be sober as an athlete of God: the prize set before thee is immortality and eternal life, of which thou art also persuaded. In all things may my soul be for thing,7 and my bonds also, which thou hast loved.​

Here is a quote from a ECF which I am certain you will disagree with.

Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho chap 3​

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.’​

I do not always respond because I am getting the idea that you have no intention to try to understand what others think , you have admitted that you have not read one book about why those of us believe that Christian Universal Redemption is all about.

I have been taught by some of the best and read the Bible in more than one language. As a matter of fact I attend a service every week where I read the benediction in Korean. I don't really need to read any books. Can you perhaps quote something from one of those books that clearly shows me to be incorrect.

I think you like to push people’s buttons and don’t even try to understand why people have a different view than yours.

I could say the same about you.

If you would honestly have conversations with people understanding that scripture is not always clear to the exact meaning that of what God was trying to say and have a conversation instead of a lecture then I would engage more often but sadly that is not the case as far as I see it.

What and how I post is not much different than how most others post so I'm not sure what you mean.

Others see scripture differently and as scripture says we sharpen each other by looking at all the possibilities and to see which align with our view of God and what he has taught in scripture and in the church and in human history.

I am not too concerned about church and human history. The Eastern Orthodox Bible supports me. Their language has been Greek since Jesus founded the church.

EOB John 3:15 so that everyone believing in him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 Indeed, God so loved the world that he gave his only-begottenf Son, so that everyone who believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.​

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[Gup20]

Great insight I really enjoyed what you posted. Why do you equate the judgement with “eternal damnation” , I can find no scripture that says man only can put their trust in Jesus while in the mortal body. If you would translate the Greek word translated eternal as “ of the age” then the judgement is of the age which is to refine them look at Zech 13:9 this shows Gods heart to test and refine then they will call on his name. When this is completed the scripture that says every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. Then all scripture is completed just like 1Cor 15:28 and God will be all in all . If there is eternal damnation and not judgement that leads to redemption then scripture is not complete. This is why I don’t believe “eternal “ is a good translation.

Well, one scripture would be:

2Co 5:10 NASB95 - 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.​

Our judgment is for what was done in the body either good or bad. We are not judged for righteous deeds done outside of the body.

One of the major problems of those like @Der Alte is that it is not ONLY the Greek he has to contend with. His doctrine has invented a way to explain away how the plan, straightforward meaning of the text is not what it means. But he has not explained why the Hebrew agrees with the plain, straightforward meaning and contradicts his interpretation of the Greek text.

Dan 12:1-2 NASB95 - 1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands [guard] over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace [and] everlasting contempt.​

Here the Hebrew and Greek both say eternal or everlasting. He must now invent an explanation of why both Hebrew and Greek don't mean what they say and that strains credulity. Clearly Daniel 12 is talking about the same event from Revelation.

Rev 20:11-15 NASB95 - 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

​

Rev 20:10 NASB95 - 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

​

These passages agree perfectly in the straightforward meaning, whether in English, Hebrew, or Greek.

Jhn 8:21, 24 NASB95 - 21 Then He said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come." ... 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am [He,] you will die in your sins."​

Heb 9:27 NASB95 - 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this [comes] judgment,​

The best that I can tell is that we must believe before dying to be saved. Otherwise, Jesus would not have needed to tell them to believe before they died.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Well, one scripture would be:

2Co 5:10 NASB95 - 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.​

Our judgment is for what was done in the body either good or bad. We are not judged for righteous deeds done outside of the body.

One of the major problems of those like @Der Alte is that it is not ONLY the Greek he has to contend with. His doctrine has invented a way to explain away how the plan, straightforward meaning of the text is not what it means. But he has not explained why the Hebrew agrees with the plain, straightforward meaning and contradicts his interpretation of the Greek text.

Dan 12:1-2 NASB95 - 1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands [guard] over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. 2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace [and] everlasting contempt.​

Here the Hebrew and Greek both say eternal or everlasting. He must now invent an explanation of why both Hebrew and Greek don't mean what they say and that strains credulity. Clearly Daniel 12 is talking about the same event from Revelation.

Rev 20:11-15 NASB95 - 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one [of them] according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.​

​

Rev 20:10 NASB95 - 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.​

​

These passages agree perfectly in the straightforward meaning, whether in English, Hebrew, or Greek.

Jhn 8:21, 24 NASB95 - 21 Then He said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come." ... 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am [He,] you will die in your sins."​

Heb 9:27 NASB95 - 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this [comes] judgment,​

The best that I can tell is that we must believe before dying to be saved. Otherwise, Jesus would not have needed to tell them to believe before they died.

Dan12:2 the word translated everlasting is the Hebrew word Olam ,and that doesn’t mean eternal or everlasting, it means the end is not seen but it does have an end. Jonah was in the belly of the fish for Olam , slaves were slaves for Olam . Hebrews 9:27 why is the judgement “ heaven or hell” ? I believe the judgement is did you follow Jesus or not while in the mortal body, if yes you go to God and receive your heavenly rewards if no you go to the Lake of Fire to be purified till all that is not of God is removed and then y they will see God clearly and as scripture says more than once “Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess gladly that Jesus is Lord. Their judgment is never ending they lose their heavenly reward , it’s a once in a lifetime opportunity, but God does not torture his beloved creation for ever. So yes sadly most will be in this condition, they are the subjects of the kingdom, they become Gods footstool. Matt 5:34-35 God says that the earth is his footstool, not a place of never ending torture. Christians become residents of heaven that is our citizenship, those who are Gods footstool get the earth as their reward, that’s the New Earth. So for me it’s easy to agree with all these scriptures if translated properly because most of it is talking about what happens in this age , but the age to come has different rules that apply. John 4:42 Jesus is the Christ , the savior of the world. That is a declaration not a maybe if man does his part Jesus would be the savior but man’s will overcomes God will so Jesus is a potential or possible savior.

 

[Der Alte]

***
One of the major problems of those like @Der Alte is that it is not ONLY the Greek he has to contend with. His doctrine has invented a way to explain away how the plan, straightforward meaning of the text is not what it means. But he has not explained why the Hebrew agrees with the plain, straightforward meaning and contradicts his interpretation of the Greek text. ***

Please extend me the courtesy of actually reading my posts and replying directly to them. While you are considering that I will link you to 1 of my posts where I show, citing scripture only, that "Olam" does in fact mean everlasting as it is so translated in the Jewish Publication Society JPS old testament. I also link to the Eastern Greek orthodox Bible. EOB both available online.

Online Bible

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Post on Olam

Does עולם/olam mean eternal or not?

Some members @ CF claim that עולם/olam never means eternal. In response , I reviewed every occurrence of olam in the OT. I found 47 forty-seven vss. which define/describe olam as eternal/everlasting by juxtaposition with adjectives or descriptive phrases. Here are 10 of the 47 verses. [1]...

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Post on Aionios

The Argument for Universal Reconciliation from the Book of Romans

I provided enough citings to see if you have grasp of the subject matter. You've answered by no answer. I get why you don't get it. It's not your fault Even the citing you give has the black hole of the typical one sided voided picture missing the vital party to the drama, our adversary, the...

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[Der Alte]

Dan12:2 the word translated everlasting is the Hebrew word Olam ,and that doesn’t mean eternal or everlasting, it means the end is not seen but it does have an end. Jonah was in the belly of the fish for Olam , slaves were slaves for Olam . Hebrews 9:27 why is the judgement “ heaven or hell” ? I believe the judgement is did you follow Jesus or not while in the mortal body, if yes you go to God and receive your heavenly rewards if no you go to the Lake of Fire to be purified till all that is not of God is removed and then y they will see God clearly and as scripture says more than once “Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess gladly that Jesus is Lord. Their judgment is never ending they lose their heavenly reward , it’s a once in a lifetime opportunity, but God does not torture his beloved creation for ever. So yes sadly most will be in this condition, they are the subjects of the kingdom, they become Gods footstool. Matt 5:34-35 God says that the earth is his footstool, not a place of never ending torture. Christians become residents of heaven that is our citizenship, those who are Gods footstool get the earth as their reward, that’s the New Earth. So for me it’s easy to agree with all these scriptures if translated properly because most of it is talking about what happens in this age , but the age to come has different rules that apply. John 4:42 Jesus is the Christ , the savior of the world. That is a declaration not a maybe if man does his part Jesus would be the savior but man’s will overcomes God will so Jesus is a potential or possible savior.

Please see links to my previous posts on the correct meaning of Olam and aionios, in post #32 immediately above. Both do in fact mean eternal, everlasting, forever etc. A few hyperbolical or figurative uses of either olam or aionios does NOT change the inherent meaning.
Is punishment eternal? According to the eastern Greek Orthodox Bible it is. Correct me if I am wrong on this but their language has been Greek since Jesus founded the church.

Matthew 25:42For I was hungry and you gave me no food; I was thirsty and you gave me no drink; 43 was a stranger and you did not receive me; naked, and you did not clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit me.’44 Then, they will answer: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not help you?’46 Then he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

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[BelieveItOarKnot]

2Co 5:10 NASB95 - 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

There is no one or the other deal in this matter.

We all do both good and bad.

The Christian belief is not like the scales of heretical moral replacement theories instead of unmerited Grace in Christ whereby the good outweighs the bad, therefore you're in or vice versa. out

The fact of the matter is our own heart is deceptive above all things, and desperately wicked just as the scripture shows us, Jer. 17:9. Our problem is that most are simply unable to see the fact of it, because we have an adversary who continually lies to us and doesn't let us see the fact that we are engaging that adversary WITHIN.

So yes, we do BAD.

IF you're still reading the scripture that says a good tree only produces good fruit and a bad tree only produces bad fruit and you think you're only a good tree, I might suggest you may not be paying attention. We all have, present tense SIN. We all have evil thoughts that defile us. Mark 7:21-23

We all have evil present within us, just as Paul did for himself as in Romans 7:21

God made that evil and bound us all to it in the flesh. We are supposed to resist it are we not?

 

[Paleouss]

Put simply, Adam's judgment is ABOLISHED and nullified resulting in the repeal and vacatur of Original Sin for every person PRIOR to the final judgment of the Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ).

Gup20. Greetings brother. Many thanks for your presentation on this topic.

Put simply, Adam's judgment is ABOLISHED and nullified resulting in the repeal and vacatur of Original Sin for every person PRIOR to the final judgment of the Great White Throne Judgment (GWTJ).

I think I understand your overall objective and I find your overall presentation intriguing. You have done a good job presenting it and clearly you have done a lot of thinking and praying. I particularly think that your conclusions are correct when pointing out the fact that since the resurrection of the wicked comes before the judgment (your quote above), this should dispel any notion that there is a universal salvation (universalism).

1. If there is a resurrection of a group of people classified as "righteous" and also "wicked".
2. and then those "wicked" are then judged
3. It naturally follows that not all are saved at judgement, for some that are judged are classified as "wicked".

That is, the very fact that there is a resurrection of a "righteous" and a "wicked" (Acts 24:15) logically demonstrates that not all are saved.

It seems to me that at one point your logical argument hinges upon what would seem to be your statement, “Consider: as long as there are none righteous - no not one - a universal death judgment is JUST.” I’m not sure of this logic nor do I think your interpretation of Rom 5:16 and 2Tim 1:10, and then the conclusion of it, is completely accurate when applied to your logic. Or at the least not formulated and presented in the best way to convince.

Instead of doing the lengthy work on where I think Rom 5:16 and 2Tim 1:10 fails your logic (at least how I am understanding your augment). I want to present a foundation to illustrate why I think your premise is on the right track but slightly flawed in regard to Original Sin and your under formulated "appearing".

According to the Bible, Original corruption is “inherited”, or transferred, by the “seed” of the man (originally Adam) through the woman (originally Eve). In the case of the Incarnation, “Life” (as opposed to death) is transferred by the “seed” (if you will) of the Divine through the woman (Mary). The original corruption and curse of Adam is therefore not transferred to Jesus; but yet still fully God and fully human (through Mary).

1. Original corruption is transferred only by the seed of the man through the woman.
2. The immaculate conception did not include the seed of the man but the seed of the Divine (if you allow the seed analogy).
3. Therefore, original corruption did not pass to Jesus.

Despite this, Jesus Christ offered to die anyway. In other words, Jesus didn’t die due to the curse of Original Sin, for He did not receive the seed of a man. He died because He chose to die to fulfill and complete the stratagem of God the Father to put all things under His feet and bring reconciliation to mankind (among other possible things).

In other words, we can now be slaves to sin (which is the type or seed of Adam) or we can be slaves to righteousness (which is the adoption into the type or seed of Christ) through faith.

Death is therefore not conquered until the Son of God willingly dies and rises from the grave (this is His "appearing" or resurrection) This particular accomplishment of putting all things under His feet is done for “all men” (Rom 5:18). This accomplishment results in the resurrection of all, the righteous and the wicked (because it was for all (Acts 24:15).

I will present a brief logical argument to show that God must conquer the power of sin and death for all.

1. Original Sin is systemic in nature.
2. There is a world (W) that consists of parts (a), (b), (c), and (d).
3. (a)dam is corrupted in world (W).
4. Therefore (W), (b), (c), and (d) are corrupted also, for Original Sin is systemic in nature.
5. If the power of sin is said to be conquered in (b) but not (a), (c), or (d),
6. then the power of sin has not been conquered in (W), which consists of (a), (b), (c) and (d).
7. Therefore the power and effects of sin have not been conquered.

This is like two kingdoms, one good and one evil. The good kingdom conquers one city within the evil kingdom and claims all the inhabitants as their own. The inhabitants rejoice to now be part of the good kingdom. However, the good kingdom cannot claim that "there is none that stand against us". For the evil kingdom still stands in opposition to the good kingdom. Therefore, for the good kingdom to make the claim and place all things under its foot, the entire evil kingdom, its power and influence over all that they enslave, must be conquered.

After this long winded foundation, I then present that because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ (which is the "appearing"), the power of sin and death, which is the curse of Original Sin, has been vacated. But there are many steps in the stratagem of God for this. So what results when a judgment is "vacated"?

Next Step After A Judgement Being Vacated: After a judgment is vacated, typically the legal proceedings restart from the point where the original judgment was entered. What this means is that the case essentially goes back to the stage it was before the judgment. Parties re-file necessary motions or pleadings. This is how all mankind comes to the second judgment.

So after the Son of God has put all things under his feet (through all the steps), which includes the sinner, the power of sin, and death. A return to a pre-Adamatic type (emphasizing the word type and not the word exact) situation occurs. Judgment now, since justice under the Law has also been satisfied, we can either be under the law of sin and death or under the law of grace, life and faith.


Keep seeking God's truth as if it were hidden treasure!

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

3. It naturally follows that not all are saved at judgement, for some that are judged are classified as "wicked".

The logic flaw above differentiates sinners into saved sinners vs wicked sinners.

Paul refutes such double dealing in Romans 3:9 by saying we're no better and even dragged things down personally by claiming to be the chief of sinners. Present tense "I am" sinner, after salvation. 1 Tim 1:15

There are sinners who know they were blinded slaves of the devil, Acts 26:18, Romans 7:21-25, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2, 1 John 3:8 and then there are those like us previously who simply don't know or can't know Jesus because they remain blinded slaves of the devil. That's really the only difference.

Thinking we're better just makes us hypocrites

 

[Paleouss]

Greetings and blessings to you BelieveltOarKnot. I hope your Sunday is a blessed one.

I will admit, I'm not totally clear on what your point is about what I wrote. Clearly your point about how we are all sinners is correct. None of us being any better than the other.

I have addressed your post out of order so as to compose a good response.

Thinking we're better just makes us hypocrites

Amen brother! We are no better than anyone else.

Paul refutes such double dealing in Romans 3:9 by saying we're no better and even dragged things down personally by claiming to be the chief of sinners. Present tense "I am" sinner, after salvation. 1 Tim 1:15

To the fact that Paul says we are not better, I give an Amen.

The logic flaw above differentiates sinners into saved sinners vs wicked sinners.

So here is where there appears to be some confusion on your part. If, in fact, you are asserting that in my quoting of a verse, I have committed a "logic flaw".

I will first point out that what was being discussed was Acts 24:15. The person I was posting to used NASB, so I did the same. NASB20 specifically says, "that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (Act 24:15 NASB). So the distinction is not mine, its the scriptural translation's.

Now if one would like to use other translations, as I do, then one might find Acts 24:15 contrasting "the just and the unjust" (ESV & NKJV), "the righteous and the unrighteous" (NLT), or "the righteous and the wicked" (NIV). However, the distinction is still being made within these translations as well. There is clearly two groups being distinguished, this is irrefutable (imo). No logic flaw present. Sure, they don't use the word "wicked", but the point and distinction appears clear in all the translations.

So now to your assertion that Acts 24:15 contains a "logic flaw", or that I had one (not sure here) because it "differentiates sinners into saved sinners vs wicked sinners" (your quote) and is contrary to Romans 3:8. It would appear that your assumption of what this verse, Acts 24:15, or I am implying is inaccurate. What am I suggesting your assumption is? Your assumption is that what I or Acts 24:15 is saying is that we are not all sinners or wicked (I'm assuming here).

Neither I, nor Acts 24:15, suggests anything of the sort. What Acts 24:15 is contrasting is (1) those wicked sinners that submit and have faith in Jesus Christ and who are covered by His righteousness (which are the righteous (NASB, NIV) and the just (ESV, NKJV)). The righteous therefore are those covered with the righteousness of Christ, those that believe and have faith.

On the other side of the contrast in Acts 24:15, (2) there are those wicked sinners that will not submit and have faith and are not covered with the righteousness of Jesus Christ (which are the unjust (ESV, NKJV) and the wicked (NASB, NIV)). These are seen in the eyes of God, because Christ's righteousness does not cover them, as the "unjust" (ESV) and "wicked" (NASB).

This does not suggest that one group is better than the other (in the sinful sense), only that one is covered.

Now, back to the point of this thread and the point of the post that you thought I had committed a "logic flaw". The very fact that there is a resurrection of a "just" (ESV, NKJV) and a "unjust" (ESV, NKJV) logically demonstrates that not all are saved. There is no contradiction with Romans 3:8, for Acts 24:15 is not implying that one sinner is better than another. Only that one is "covered" and one is not.

It is implying that one group of sinners chose, by not submitting and having faith, to be under the law of sin and death and be judged by their works, and the other group of sinners chose, by submitting and having faith, are covered in the righteousness of the Son of God and are to be judged under the law of grace, life and faith.

Peace and love to you brother.

 

[BelieveItOarKnot]

So here is where there appears to be some confusion on your part. If, in fact, you are asserting that in my quoting of a verse, I have committed a "logic flaw".

I specifically cited your logic flaw, not the scripture, as one of a typical logical fallacy, the excluded middle where other answers may be readily apparent. I, like you, have zero issues with scripture.

I will first point out that what was being discussed was Acts 24:15. The person I was posting to used NASB, so I did the same. NASB20 specifically says, "that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (Act 24:15 NASB). So the distinction is not mine, its the scriptural translation's.

I'll cut right to the chase this time and state that where you see only people in that equation, there is in fact another entity class that will be participating in that finale, that being the devil and his messengers, which is always the missing party to these equations.

I'd also point out another logic flaw in thinking we are only the "righteous," and never the "wicked" when that clearly is not the case for anyone including ourselves, as you've already admitted.

Now if one would like to use other translations, as I do, then one might find Acts 24:15 contrasting "the just and the unjust" (ESV & NKJV), "the righteous and the unrighteous" (NLT), or "the righteous and the wicked" (NIV). However, the distinction is still being made within these translations as well. There is clearly two groups being distinguished, this is irrefutable (imo). No logic flaw present. Sure, they don't use the word "wicked", but the point and distinction appears clear in all the translations.

Anytime we try to pigeon hole ourselves as one thing but not the other that's a problem.

Jesus said man shall live by every Word of God, therefore all of God's Direct Words, Words in/of Christ as well, the RED LETTER stuff applies to every one of us. See Matt. 4:4, Luke 4:4 and Deut. 3:8 for quicky references

Short version, when we read that there are good trees that only produce good fruit and bad trees that only produce evil or bad fruit and we DON'T see ourselves as BOTH, there is a logic problem

Just as we might read the same seeing ourselves as only SHEEP but never a GOAT.

We could insert any number of other statements from Jesus and if we quite mistakenly hear ourselves weighing in on only ONE SIDE of the ledgers, we're simply not hearing and technically deceived internally

So now to your assertion that Acts 24:15 contains a "logic flaw", or that I had one (not sure here) because it "differentiates sinners into saved sinners vs wicked sinners" (your quote)

Again, I don't have an issue with the scripture, just your one sided conclusion.

Where Daniel for example says this:

Daniel 12:2
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

I'd suggest to you that BOTH factors are in play within every person. Why? Because all have sin, as previously noted in Romans 3:9 among other places and sin is in fact "of the devil," 1 John 3:8, Mark 4:15 (also among other citings).

We all will carry the tempter to our own dust pile termination.

Anytime we see only people we're missing a whole picture

and is contrary to Romans 3:8. It would appear that your assumption of what this verse, Acts 24:15, or I am implying is inaccurate. What am I suggesting your assumption is? Your assumption is that what I or Acts 24:15 is saying is that we are not all sinners or wicked (I'm assuming here).

No need to keep dragging the scripture out. I was very specific with my observation of your conclusion #3 as simply being short sighted on your part. Nothing personal. It's quite common to miss the obvious.

Neither I, nor Acts 24:15, suggests anything of the sort. What Acts 24:15 is contrasting is (1) those wicked sinners that submit and have faith in Jesus Christ and who are covered by His righteousness (which are the righteous (NASB, NIV) and the just (ESV, NKJV)). The righteous therefore are those covered with the righteousness of Christ, those that believe and have faith.

Which of course has nothing to do with my first response to you or this one.

Just get all the parties on the table and we're good

It's never just people on the table is my point

 

[Free2bHeretical4Him!]

My friend, I am slowly beginning to see, although not yet in complete agreement, your thought process. Since breaking free from the chains of orthodoxy, I find myself in a place of rest and peace, as I am open to the Spirit of Truth guiding my heart and mind to to seek the mind of The Christ. I was reading the words of our Lord Jesus in Mathew 5:25 as I was reflecting on the teaching of Jesus concerning Gehenna, and my spirit was stirred when I read the following:

”“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.“
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭25‬-‭26‬ ‭NIV‬‬

Matthew 5:25-26 “Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over | New International Version (NIV)

“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over

bible.com

G476 (Strong)
ἀντίδικος
antidikos
an-tid'-ee-kos
From G473 and G1349; an opponent (in a lawsuit); specifically Satan (as the arch enemy): - adversary.
Total KJV occurrences: 5

G476 (Thayer)
ἀντίδικος
antidikos
Thayer Definition:
1) opponent
1a) an opponent in a suit of law
1b) an adversary, enemy
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G473 and G1349

G476 (Mounce)
ἀντίδικος
antidikos
5x: an opponent in a lawsuit, Mat 5:25 (2x); Luk 12:58; Luk 18:3; an adversary, 1Pe 5:8.

”Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.“
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭NIV‬‬

1 Peter 5:8-9 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers | New International Version (NIV) |

Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers

bible.com

Carry on my brother …

 

[Paleouss]

Thank you very much for clarifying your point, BelieveltOarKnot. Many thanks.

I specifically cited your logic flaw, not the scripture, as one of a typical logical fallacy, the excluded middle where other answers may be readily apparent. I, like you, have zero issues with scripture.

Gotcha. I am more clear now.

I'll cut right to the chase this time and state that where you see only people in that equation, there is in fact another entity class that will be participating in that finale, that being the devil and his messengers, which is always the missing party to these equations

I see. You are rejecting the law of excluded middle in this case. So your claim of "logic flaw" might mean one of application. You are not saying that the law of excluded middle is a "logic flaw". Unless you espouse to something like intuitionistic logic. But the why doesn't matter, so I'll move forward.

It seems to me the Acts 24:15 clearly limits, divides, and categorizes men into two groups. The men being described are in one or the other. Therefore, my use of the law of excluded middle is appropriate. The verse appears to limit and restrict any open-ended situations.

Thank you for your insight.

Peace and love to you brother