If Evolution were true...

[FrenchyBearpaw]

I can be insulting but I choose not to because I do represent the character of God Almighty. I don't have peace when I am insulting. I don't need nor want to insult. I just need to tell the sad truth about your situation. You on the other hand have no choice you must represent the character of your deity. And you do it well. he was a ---- and a murderer from the beginning. I suggest you move along and get as far from him as you can because he means you only harm. Nice talking with you, though. Try to keep your

Meh, people who presume to know the mind of god are a penny a dozen. What makes you so special?

 

[Inan3]

1. No one ever claimed it was true because the people who came up with the data they were willing to die for it.

I edited and changed the wording before I even saw your post because I knew they didn't care enough about it to die for it. They only care about promoting their agenda which isn't theirs anyway it belongs to their god.


2. The data is readily available.

No it isn't. Only what they WROTE about is available.... with pictures.

3. Please don't say that you haven't seen the data. We have shown it to you time and time again and it's not hidden.

Nope you only have given us what people WROTE about.... with pictures.

If you and AV reject the data that's fine for you, but the majority of the educated world accepts it, unlike the "data" for creationism.

Education does not a wise person make. I see many unwise educated people all the time.

[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]?

I certainly don't curse you... you curse yourselves by your own words.

Edit: In the kindest and the most pleasant way possible, you are off your rocker. (This was cute.... I laughed not in mock.... you made a joke and I liked it.)

In the case of evolution, if you've seen the evidence and still don't believe it, you may very well be deluded.

Operative word "may". The answer is .... I'm not.

Edited to fix grammar among other things.

I believe you guys are sincere but nevertheless wrong about the Bible. Your sincerity will get you no where. Your faith in God will.

 

[Cabal]

And I'm talking bout people dying for something they think isn't false.

Exactly, it really is painfully simple - all the martyrdoms show is that the earliest Christians believed their faith was true, not that it was true.

I wonder if these True Christians (tm) today who think this is evidence for their faith would worship David Koresh, or Allah? I mean, if someone died for their belief in them, then that means it must be true...

 

[Inan3]

Meh, people who presume to know the mind of god are a penny a dozen. What makes you so special?

Nothing... that's the whole point. God has made it so that ANYONE can know Him.... even YOU Frenchy. (I like that name)

 

[Cabal]

I can be insulting but I choose not to because I do represent the character of God Almighty.

Dear golly, Inane, just...just stop there.

Really, if God's anything as spiteful and lacking in self-awareness as you are, then people are going to be running in the other direction.

I know it's a common trick in churches today when witnessing to just say any old guff and as long as you do it for God he'll make it magically work out ok and if it doesn't work it's just those wicked heathen's fault for not wanting to listen - but seriously - claiming to be representing God's character while in a slanging match consisting of parroting what the opposition is saying just makes him look even less desirable to those you're trying to reach. There are right ways and wrong ways to broach faith in God with people, and so far you're hitting all the bum notes.

 

[Inan3]

Exactly, it really is painfully simple - all the martyrdoms show is that the earliest Christians believed their faith was true, not that it was true.

I wonder if these True Christians (tm) today who think this is evidence for their faith would worship David Koresh, or Allah? I mean, if someone died for their belief in them, then that means it must be true...

Okay Cabal, this warrants a reply. Even though it a false and foolishly concluded.

No, true Christians would not worship David Koresh or Allah because they know they are wrong.

It's not just in the dying it's why they died. The true martyrs for Christ did not OPT to die like the suicide bombers of Allah and take their own lives... they were killed at the hands of their persecutors because they were Christians.

Nor were they (true Christians) forced to drink the cool-aid of the man they followed for years and murdered BY him.

No..., true Christians followed Jesus Christ AFTER He laid down HIS life for them and they were willing to die AT THE HANDS OF HATEFUL MURDERERS who hated them because they were followers of Christ, rather than deny Him. They did this not because they believed their faith was true but because they loved the Lord.

 

[AV1611VET]

And I'm talking bout people dying for something they think isn't false.

Have I not already agreed with you that they thought what they were writing about was true?

We are in disagreement about what they knew -- not what they thought.

 

[Cabal]

No, true Christians would not worship David Koresh or Allah because they know they are wrong.

Of course they wouldn't worship them - I was overoptimistically expecting that those who exalt themselves as True Christians (tm) be consistent....

It's not just in the dying it's why they died. The true martyrs for Christ did not OPT to die like the suicide bombers of Allah and take their own lives... they were killed at the hands of their persecutors because they were Christians.

David Koresh and those who followed him would say exactly the same thing.

Nor were they (true Christians) forced to drink the cool-aid of the man they followed for years and murdered BY him.

You're thinking of Jim Jones.

No..., true Christians followed Jesus Christ AFTER He laid down HIS life for them and they were willing to die AT THE HANDS OF HATEFUL MURDERERS who hated them because they were followers of Christ, rather than deny Him. They did this not because they believed their faith was true but because they loved the Lord.

This is circular logic. The argument put forward is that Christianity must be true else why die for it - here you're saying that they died for it because Christianity is true.

Hardly convincing, but what's new....

 

[Inan3]

Thank you for your response.

You're welcome.

You are naive if you believe that scientists use a different set of the laws of physics to engineer the hardware and networks that your computer uses to those used by astrophysicists to look billions of years into the past. Finding the petroleum for the plastics and the mining of the ore for the computer chips uses old earth geology methods. Has a bible provided any of that information? Never. The x-ray and MRI machines at the hospital use the same laws of physics, as does the GPS system that you may have in your cell phone. Do own or drive a car? You have already accepted all of those physical laws, and all of the related science.

Davian, I'm not naive, YOU just suppose I am. You don't know me.

I believe these things could have come about even if one did not know about old earth geology methods. Laws of physics would be there without evolution theory. Yes, I accept physical laws because God created them and put them into play in His earth.

Yet this is in contradiction to your earlier answer. If the only answers you receive are those that appear to come from within, then that is not much of a god. The human brain is an amazing thing, capable of creating its own illusions, such as the illusion of self, as detailed in my posting here.

I said nothing contradictory. You understood it contradictory because that suits you. I didn't say the only answers I receive "appear to come from within"... you said that. I realize the human brain is amazing. We are created in the image of God with the ability to imagine and create but in the spirit we can hear and KNOW God.

Back in the 1600's they were working out the speed of light. The method could be conveyed to someone on the other side of the planet, where they could replicate the experiment for themselves. That is science.

You describe your god as a very big and important thing. Has it never occured to you that the fact that you cannot demonstrate this god to others like myself is that you may be wrong? Why is your god indistinguishable from nothing?

God has chosen that through the "foolishness of preaching" men would come to know Him IF they believe it. I demonstrate and convey God all the time. Many hear me and believe what I say and in turn, they give their lives to the Lord and are changed delivered, happy, fulfilled, etc. some don't and just go without. That is sad.

Jesus predicted this. He said having eyes they see not and ears they hear not for the eyes they have closed and their ears are dull of hearing. In other words, the don't want to hear or see so they don't.

1Co 1:18 For the message about Christ's death on the cross is nonsense to those who are being lost; but for us who are being saved it is God's power.
1Co 1:19 The scripture says, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise and set aside the understanding of the scholars."

I like the way this version puts verse 19 because it shows God's not looking for your intelligence and how smart you are... He's only looking for you.
1Co 1:19 Scripture says, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise. I will reject the intelligence of intelligent people."

1Co 1:20 So then, where does that leave the wise? or the scholars? or the skillful debaters of this world? God has shown that this world's wisdom is foolishness!
1Co 1:21 For God in his wisdom made it impossible for people to know him by means of their own wisdom. INSTEAD, by means of the so-called "foolish" message we preach, God decided to save those who believe.That is soooo God.

I am ignostic about gods. I do not mean this in a hurtful way, but your god appears to be no more than storybook character in a work of historical fiction.

There has never been a story book character or a fairytale creature that was ever ANYTHING like unto God. He is real. He is credible. He is alive and vital. You can't compare Him to non-reality.

You appear to be very religious.

That is only relative to one's perception of religion. Traditional religion has no life or power connected to it. It is dead and ritualistic putting God in some small box of doctrine or dogma. God is our life and light because God is LIGHT and LIFE for all that exists... even those who do not believe in Him.

So by this you mean you reject computers, automobiles, television, modern medicine?

Answered above.

They are just writings in a book.

Without the Spirit that might be the case but we are not without the Spirit and therefore, the Word is alive and life giving and powerful.

This is circular logic, and is dismissed as such. I have to believe in order to believe?

No, you have to believe to KNOW.

Ridiculous. Again, this was written into the 'holy' texts, to stop the 'who's that behind the curtain' questions. Tempt the believers with heaven, threaten the doubters with hell. Your bible has been dismantled in ways never imagined by the writers. Had they any idea the internet was in the future? Apparently not, or I am sure they would have spent more time editing it for continuity. It is just a book.

It's not ridiculous, and it is obvious you do not know the scriptures. They say nothing of the kind to me. They are obviously and unfortunately hid from you. I do have a computer and I am accessable to the internet and yet, I still see the scriptures in the same light. I wouldn't taut the internet that much though, because satan is the god of this world and he uses it for his purposes, also.

Then you do not know atheism, and particularly ignostic atheism.

No offense but I am very thankful I do not!!

I am no more afraid to test God than I am of testing Darth Vader.

God is real while Darth Vader is only an imaginary being and we all know this. A testament of this would be the millions upon millions who believe in God and know Him and as far as I know, no one believes Darth Vader is real.

My wife of 20 years was raised Anglican, but only attends church with her parents a few times per year. We take communion (we pass on the wine for sanitary reasons). Interesting, but ultimately it is just an empty tradition to me.

I was raised Roman Catholic (which is much like the Anglican church) and it was equally an empty tradition to me and still is. You cannot know God through these dead traditions. Jesus taught that by these dead traditions people make the power of God of none effect and that is rightly so. By the way, that's one of the reasons the religious people of His day hated Him. He refuted and revealed their religion as fraud and fruitless.

Our kids are free of any theism, and I have talked at length with them on why people want to believe such things (including extraterrestrials, crop circles, perpetual motion machines).

I'm sure you have and yet, when we do that with our kids you guys say we are brainwashing them. Hmmmm

I think it is time for my wife to stop believing. You are one of the first on this board to respond with something other than evasion or obfuscation, but you ended up just preaching. You have provided nothing to substantiate the existence of your god. I had hope for more from a forum such as this one.

You say it was preaching. I say it is no more than you stating your beliefs. You use and speak of what you have learned and hold to and so do I. So if that is preaching, explaining what and why I believe something, then so be it. That's my life. I live what I believe. BTW I think your wife should be allowed to decide when she should or should not believe... not you.

To paraphrase from the NMS quote I posted earlier, all I see here are vast and intricate rationales on trying to justify why their particular interpretation of a certain version of a bible shows that it cannot be proven to be false. And nothing to show that they are more than historical fiction.

I don't think anyone is trying to rationalize anything. I am not. You come on here and tell me why I think what I do, what I am afraid of, that what I believe is ridiculous, etc. etc. AND THEN, you ask me to respond to your post. I did so and I gave you honest answers of what I believe and why I disagree with you. You don't have to accept what I say or agree with it but I think you are wrong to suggest I am trying to rationalize and justify my particular version or interpretation of the Bible. I believe it. I have studied it for forty years. I accept and love what it say. I bring my life and everything into conformity to it. If that is offensive to you, that is your problem not mine. I can't even say I am sorry because I have done nothing to offend you by sharing my life and personal beliefs with you.

I'm going to end this here by saying, and no offense, but I believe you want to know truth. You WANT to know God. This wanting comes from God and He is WANTING to know you. I would suggest that you stop keeping Him at arms length because of these foolish notions of science being all in all. It is not. Only God fills that place.

 

[rjc34]

Let me jump right to my point. I don’t believe there was a scientific method that discovered “evolution”. Darwin noticed the variation in the appearance of individual animals while studying wildlife. He assumed that this variation, given enough time, would allow those animals to change to the point that they looked different. The theory of evolution then developed through people writing books that typically contain two things (i) artist’s drawings that show the ages and names of the layers of the earth and (ii) artist’s drawings showing plants and animals arranged in a “family tree.” The continuous printing of them for more than a hundred years does not prove the theory.

What Darwin assumed was not really surprising. This process of changing an organism’s appearance through a series of small changes is correctly called “microevolution”. But let’s be real that is not what we are referring to when we use the term “the theory of evolution”.

Whenever I find myself in a discussion regarding whether the Bible’s creation account or the theory of evolution is correct, I find that we are really discussing “where did life come from?” and “did we descend from apelike ancestors?”

I will go out on a limb here by saying nothing has been dug out of the ground (or discovered anywhere else) that has proven the “theory of evolution”, which I maintain is a really a discussion of abiogenesis and macroevolution combined.

Glad you've been able to rationalize your evolution-denial so neatly. It must be nice ignoring a century and a half of scientific inquiry and being able to completely replace it with some pseudo-history that it looks like you completely made up.

 

[rjc34]

I agree that these things have been discussed alot. Having said that, I am not sure science and the bible disagree. You have to keep in mind some things can be taken literally, for example "The Flood", "Adam and Eve" and others "talking animals" may be more allegorical in nature.

With regard to "spiritual health", I am not sure what your point is. I don't like to avoid discussion, but I really am missing your point on "spiritual health".

So the flood, Adam and Eve, and talking animals are all allegorical... but the creation story is to be taken literally? I'm sorry, but how can you honestly carry on such a double standard?

And his point about 'spiritual health' is that there's not a shred of evidence for a 'spirit' or 'soul' of any kind. Happiness and lack of stress definitely has positive health benefits. If a religious group provides happiness and stress relief, then it might very well have health benefits. The problem is, there are always secular alternatives that provide the same benefits without any of the mythology and tithing tacked on.

 

[rjc34]

 

[Inan3]

Of course they wouldn't worship them - I was overoptimistically expecting that those who exalt themselves as True Christians (tm) be consistent....

Well, I still don't get it then. I don't know what you are talking about.

David Koresh and those who followed him would say exactly the same thing.

You're thinking of Jim Jones.

Opps, you're right.

And still ... This did not happen because the people believed in David Koresh (although in a round about way it did) and they were being persecuted but rather because the law was broken and children were being raped and an FBI agent was killed, etc. This is nothing like men and women being thrown to the lions or boiled in oil or hung on a cross for faith in Jesus. Not even close. And it was never proven that they were not killed at their own hands.

This is circular logic. The argument put forward is that Christianity must be true else why die for it - here you're saying that they died for it because Christianity is true.

Nope... I am saying they died because they were murdered by men because they didn't like them believing in and living for Jesus.... sort of like you guys.

Below is the reason for persecution and martyrdom.

Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
Joh 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me WITHOUT A CAUSE.


My capitalization and embolden.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Below is the reason for persecution and martyrdom.

Joh 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Joh 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
Joh 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
Joh 15:21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.
Joh 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.
Joh 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
Joh 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Joh 15:25 But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me WITHOUT A CAUSE.


My capitalization and embolden.

And it never once occurred to you that some folks are just insufferably obnoxious, and that's why they get "persecuted"?

 

[Inan3]

I agree that these things have been discussed alot. Having said that, I am not sure science and the bible disagree. You have to keep in mind some things can be taken literally, for example "The Flood", "Adam and Eve" and others "talking animals" may be more allegorical in nature.

With regard to "spiritual health", I am not sure what your point is. I don't like to avoid discussion, but I really am missing your point on "spiritual health".

Keep in mind Deaver that Jesus believed Adam and Eve were literal. He said:
Mar 10:6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Mat 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

 

[Nathan Poe]

Keep in mind Deaver that Jesus believed Adam and Eve were literal.

Is that really the best you've got? Third/fourth hand accounts of Jesus say one thing, and you'll use that to believe what you wish?

 

[Inan3]

And it never once occurred to you that some folks are just insufferably obnoxious, and that's why they get "persecuted"?

No, that never occurred to me. I can't understand how children can be so insufferably obnoxious as to so cruelly murder them. Nor can I understand why anyone would boil someone in oil or throw them to the lions and then sit around and watch while they are being savagely attacked.

It's obvious that you can justify this. Maybe you could tell me how you could think this is justified, NP, regardless of who it is.

 

[Inan3]

Is that really the best you've got? Third/fourth hand accounts of Jesus say one thing, and you'll use that to believe what you wish?

I believe in Jesus and what He says and yes, that's the best I've got. It doesn't get any better.

What do you wish that I should take your attitude and side and pass that along? I'm afraid I would end up as empty and sad as "some" people in this forum and I certaily wouldn't WANT to pass that along.

No, I'd rather take Jesus at His word.

 

[rjc34]

I agree with that. Let me also add, we all have the same facts, where the major difference is the interpretaion. That interpretation is complicated by what we want to believe, on both sides of any issue.

No. No no no no no. Stop. Do not ever equate my (and sciences) search for how the universe works with your need to believe the mythology you were raised on. There is nothing I 'want' to believe. Perhaps I 'want' to believe in some sort of all-loving deity that grants wishes (prayer), and has a paradise prepared for me after this life, but I don't believe in wishful thinking. My search for truth and reality is evidence, reason and logic based. You can't name a single thing I believe that isn't supported by evidence, reason and logic.

 

[rjc34]

For what purpose? so the author could die a martyr?

Are you claiming to know who the anonymous author of the one of the Gospels is? And claiming to know that this person happened to die a martyr?