If evolution is not true, what was the process of creation?

[Abraxos]

Thankyou.

Its what you say in your last paragraph (you put it very well) that I am asking about, the mechanics (so to speak). I think the book of Genesis and scientific study of nature are two different ways of finding things out. Some Christians object to Darwinian evolution theory as the scientific language that we should use, and I wonder then what they propose as an alternative, or do they just say we should accept Genesis chapter one, and ask no more?

I also wonder is it even possible to find it out - that is the mechanics of making - but there must have been some surely? I mean what correlates on the plane of nature with God's fiat, a process, the sudden appearance of finished species....?

Just so we are clear, my stance is that in explaining the theory of evolution, we do not have one iota of fact. Scientists who go about teaching that the theory of evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling is one of the greatest hoaxes ever. It may have been considered as a reliable theory hundred years ago, but has become a relic of past scientific studies that aren't holding up by modern science.

If you were paying attention to my comment in it's entirety, I was demonstrating an example of the ancient Chinese beliefs and written language, and how there are what appear to be correlations to one God, the flood of Noah, and to the biblical creation account of man. There are many examples of these snippets spoken of in Genesis all over the world. History is all about patterns of evidence. If you have one piece of evidence in isolation, it's not history. If you can string together a whole sequence of things that are happening that match a story, then you can say that story is no longer a story; it suddenly becomes history. So no, Christians such as I do not "accept Genesis 1 and ask no more," there are many factors taken into account.

Personally, I do not believe an act of God could be recreated by man. Perhaps understand it, but not recreate one. CERN comes to mind when I think of such attempts.

 

[The Barbarian]

Just so we are clear, my stance is that in explaining the theory of evolution, we do not have one iota of fact.

Here's a few:

• Each of Darwin's points regarding evolution have been observed and confirmed.
• Natural selection has been observed to increase fitness in populations
• Genetics explained why new traits persist instead of being diluted out of existence.
• DNA analysis confirms evolutionary phylogenies based on anatomy and fossil evidence
• Numerous predicted transitional forms have been discovered, confirming the predictions.
• Even more important, there have been no transitional forms where they shouldn't be.
• Speciation is an observed fact, something even many creationists now admit.
• Things like new enyzme systems and new digestive organs have been directly observed to evolve.

Scientists who go about teaching that the theory of evolution is a fact of life are great con-men, and the story they are telling is one of the greatest hoaxes ever.

See above. You've been badly misled.

It may have been considered as a reliable theory hundred years ago, but has become a relic of past scientific studies that aren't holding up by modern science.

You misled about that, too. For example, the rediscovery of genetics in the 20th century, removed the last serious objection to evolutionary theory.

 

[Abraxos]

Here's a few:

• Each of Darwin's points regarding evolution have been observed and confirmed.
• Natural selection has been observed to increase fitness in populations
• Genetics explained why new traits persist instead of being diluted out of existence.
• DNA analysis confirms evolutionary phylogenies based on anatomy and fossil evidence
• Numerous predicted transitional forms have been discovered, confirming the predictions.
• Even more important, there have been no transitional forms where they shouldn't be.
• Speciation is an observed fact, something even many creationists now admit.
• Things like new enyzme systems and new digestive organs have been directly observed to evolve.

See above. You've been badly misled.



You misled about that, too. For example, the rediscovery of genetics in the 20th century, removed the last serious objection to evolutionary theory.

I have heard of all this nonsense before, and though you got bamboozled into believing this is evidence for the ToE, I do not much care that you want to believe it to be true, as you pointed out it's not a core focus for Christianity. I could go into detailing each bullet point on why it's not evidence for the amoeba-to-man theory, but I digress.

I will point out one though as this one often irks me: 'Speciation' is a man-made word, and boundaries between species is often blurry. Charles Darwin even said, "I was much struck how entirely vague and arbitrary is the distinction between species and varieties."

The word is used in multiple ways. Geologists they tend to separate fossils into different species based on the way they look but biologists sometimes say it's the same species if they can interbreed regardless on how they look. One example you have is the land Iguanas and marine Iguanas, they look different, act different, they live in different environments, they eat different things; they have been labeled two distinct different species by evolutionists and they claim that they have been separated for millions of years - yet they can interbreed. This example is used by evolutionists to claim species evolve when really it's just adaptation and varieties (micro-evolution).

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian, cites some of the evidence for evolution:
Here's a few:

• Each of Darwin's points regarding evolution have been observed and confirmed.
• Natural selection has been observed to increase fitness in populations
• Genetics explained why new traits persist instead of being diluted out of existence.
• DNA analysis confirms evolutionary phylogenies based on anatomy and fossil evidence
• Numerous predicted transitional forms have been discovered, confirming the predictions.
• Even more important, there have been no transitional forms where they shouldn't be.
• Speciation is an observed fact, something even many creationists now admit.
• Things like new enyzme systems and new digestive organs have been directly observed to evolve.

I have heard of all this nonsense before

It's all documented fact. Would you like me to show you some of it? Pick one you think is false and I'll show you.

I do not much care that you want to believe it to be true,

Doesn't matter. Facts don't care if you accept them or not.

I could go into detailing each bullet point on why it's not evidence for the amoeba-to-man theory,

Humans didn't evolve from amoebae; as usual, it's not knowing what the theory is, that's tripping you up.

I will point out one though as this one often irks me: 'Speciation' is a man-made word, and boundaries between species is often blurry.

Of course. If evolution was false, there would be nice, neat boundaries between taxa. But as Darwin pointed out, that's not the case. There are all sorts of intermediate populations that show gradual change is the norm. If this wasn't the case, evolutionary theory would be in big trouble.

Charles Darwin even said, "I was much struck how entirely vague and arbitrary is the distinction between species and varieties."

Yep. One of the major pillars of the theory; if each species was created separately, you'd see clear divisions. But that's not the reality we have. This is why even many creationists now admit that speciation is a fact.

As you admit, closely related species can even interbreed. On the other hand, more distantly related species cannot. Which is again, what evolutionary theory predicts.

 

[Denadii]

Your body is also you.

Jeramias 1:5 Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

So, as St. Augustine noted, there was an initial creation, from which every other created thing came to be as it developed over time.

Mr Augustine is correct in the respect that each 'species' reproduces after its own kind. That is not creation its reproduction...But the spirit is new each time. That's created. Each time. You may have seen instances of what can be called micro evolution. But not your big magical scenario. Evolution does not exist. You will never see two hummingbirds mating to produce the elephant.

 

[Denadii]

Here's a few:

• Each of Darwin's points regarding evolution have been observed and confirmed.
• Natural selection has been observed to increase fitness in populations
• Genetics explained why new traits persist instead of being diluted out of existence.
• DNA analysis confirms evolutionary phylogenies based on anatomy and fossil evidence
• Numerous predicted transitional forms have been discovered, confirming the predictions.
• Even more important, there have been no transitional forms where they shouldn't be.
• Speciation is an observed fact, something even many creationists now admit.
• Things like new enyzme systems and new digestive organs have been directly observed to evolve.

There is not and never has been ANY proof of evolution. It's an unproven theory only. Yet its pushed by science and universities as fact for one purpose only...that being...to deny the existence of God.

See above. You've been badly misled.



You misled about that, too. For example, the rediscovery of genetics in the 20th century, removed the last serious objection to evolutionary theory.

 

[The Barbarian]

Mr Augustine is correct in the respect that each 'species' reproduces after its own kind.

That's not what he wrote. BTW, the Bible doesn't say that either, although some creationists don't seem to read the Bible much.

St. Augustine wrote that "seeds" of life were created by God, and only developed into living organisms as time and conditions were right for them to emerge. Pretty much the opposite of special creation

 

[The Barbarian]

The Bible does not need to be rewritten. It needs to be reread, with the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit...Not intellectually.

If everyone did that, it would be the end of YE creationism.

 

[Denadii]

I've posted these thoughts before... I agreed with you that God's initiative in creation was "And God said,...". So we agree that on each day it is clear that God has not Done something but rather Said something, not to have made something but rather to have commanded something. So what Genesis one states is that God spoke and commanded the Land, Water, etc. to produce/bring forth..."And it was so". What follows must be explanatory or post-fulfillment because we must all agree that God spoke...not immediate or otherwise made. It would seem rational to me that the fiat to the created matter invokes a process....

Then we are mostly agreed...If you read carefully though you will see that God did indeed speak it into existence. Then from verse three on He began the reconstruction of the Earth...Creating animals and plants. The Earth already was from verse one. What was left of it.

 

[Denadii]

That's not what he wrote. BTW, the Bible doesn't say that either, although some creationists don't seem to read the Bible much.

St. Augustine wrote that "seeds" of life were created by God, and only developed into living organisms as time and conditions were right for them to emerge. Pretty much the opposite of special creation

I'm sorry my friend. I was raised a Romanist, so I cannot judge your religion, and will not. Still I can say that I have no faith or love for your Mr Augustine. According to your Mr Augustine, I am under the threat of death because I refuse the Romanist religion.
You however, can believe as you like and I am more than willing to remain friends with you.

 

[Denadii]

If everyone did that, it would be the end of YE creationism.

Explain? Oh you mean Young Earth? You're right! God created the heavens and the Earth, Satan and his minions caused it to be destroyed then in verse Three God rebuilds it. Its amazing how Christians of all flavors are offended by this.

 

[The Barbarian]

I'm sorry my friend. I was raised a Romanist, so I cannot judge your religion, and will not.

Don't know what a "Romanist" is, but it sounds like someone's resentful feelings toward the Church.

Still I can say that I have no faith or love for your Mr Augustine.

He had a strong love for God and the Scriptures. Which is perhaps why he's held in high esteem by all three major Christian traditions.

According to your Mr Augustine, I am under the threat of death because I refuse the Romanist religion.

You've been misled about that. Even today the Church notes that one does not necessarily have to be a Roman Catholic to be saved.

 

[Denadii]

Don't know what a "Romanist" is, but it sounds like someone's resentful feelings toward the Church.



He had a strong love for God and the Scriptures. Which is perhaps why he's held in high esteem by all three major Christian traditions.



You've been misled about that. Even today the Church notes that one does not necessarily have to be a Roman Catholic to be saved.

The Catholic church is the church of Rome. Its the Romanist religion.
I read it in the works of Augustine..Unfortunately that was forty five years ago. It'll take me time to find it now.

 

[The Barbarian]

The Catholic church is the church of Rome. Its the Romanist religion.

Ah, you mean Christianity. You do realize that Catholics are only the largest and oldest branch of Christianity, do you not?

 

[Scott Perkins]

If you believe evolution is false, what then do you think or believe was the process of creation? Fair enough if you disagree with darwinian evolution, but think some other sort of theistic evolution process was involved, but if you don't agree with any kind of evolutionary theory how then did birds, animals, fish, humans, come into existence. I am asking about how God created these? Can that be found out by science?

Evolution is a joke, a bad one at time, what was the process? Like you would understand God? What happened was God Spoke and bam it happened, please dude. Evolution is ridiculous.

 

[The Barbarian]

Evolution is a joke, a bad one at time, what was the process? Like you would understand God? What happened was God Spoke and bam it happened, please dude. Evolution is ridiculous.

It comes down to evidence. And there is abundant evidence for evolution as the way God produced the diversity of life we see.

Would you like to see how we know this?

 

[klutedavid]

If you believe evolution is false, what then do you think or believe was the process of creation? Fair enough if you disagree with darwinian evolution, but think some other sort of theistic evolution process was involved, but if you don't agree with any kind of evolutionary theory how then did birds, animals, fish, humans, come into existence. I am asking about how God created these? Can that be found out by science?

Science is a very limited discipline.

Science only concerns itself with observable data.

Anything that is beyond detection by the scientific community, cannot be understood by science.

Where science lacks the observable data, science will extrapolate to cover any unknown region of data.

For example, if the Big Bang occurred, then it holds, that time and space was sterile due to the immense heat. A sterile environment, i.e., space time, cannot logically then at any time contain life. Science will extrapolate beyond the observable and claim that life can somehow generate in a sterile environment.

Any extrapolation of the observable data is not justified.

 

[The Barbarian]

For example, if the Big Bang occurred, then it holds, that time and space was sterile due to the immense heat. A sterile environment, i.e., space time, cannot logically then at any time contain life. Science will extrapolate beyond the observable and claim that life can somehow generate in a sterile environment.

God said it did. So there is that.

 

[Denadii]

Ah, you mean Christianity. You do realize that Catholics are only the largest and oldest branch of Christianity, do you not?

LOL I do know that..But largest does not mean correct. It means big.

 

[Denadii]

Evolution is a joke, a bad one at time, what was the process? Like you would understand God? What happened was God Spoke and bam it happened, please dude. Evolution is ridiculous.

Scott Perkins you have a familiar face...I think I like you.