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Featured If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Try Hebrew if you can.

    Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting [H5769] life, and some to shame and everlasting [H5769] contempt.

    Daniel 12:2 Hebrew Study Bible (Apostolic / Interlinear)
    וְרַבִּ֕ים מִיְּשֵׁנֵ֥י אַדְמַת־ עָפָ֖ר יָקִ֑יצוּ אֵ֚לֶּה לְחַיֵּ֣י עֹולָ֔ם וְאֵ֥לֶּה לַחֲרָפֹ֖ות לְדִרְאֹ֥ון עֹולָֽם׃ ס

    Root Word (Etymology) H5769 עלם / עולם ‛ôlâm everlasting, 64; perpetual, 22;
    I.long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world

    A.ancient time, long time (of past) B.(of future) I. for ever, always, ii. continuous existence, perpetual; iii. everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

    Examples: Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting [ H5769] righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Written and addressed to thy seed — Israel and her children, as distinguished from “the Gentiles.”
    Isaiah 45:16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

    Isaiah 45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an eternal salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

    Isaiah 54:3 For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

    Isaiah 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame [H1322] of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more. The word is H1322 בֹּשֶׁת bôsheth; NOT aionios
     
  2. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    OLAM is the same Hebrew word used here:

    Lam.3:31For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
    33For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve THE CHILDREN OF MEN. (KJV, emphasis mine)

    Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls *which* I have made. (KJV)

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
     
  3. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Speaking of OLAM, we now turn to Dan.12:2-3, which also supports the above position:

    The context suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

    2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
    and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
    of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
    (Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

    The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

    Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

    καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

    Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

    eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

    εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

    So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

    3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
    and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

    2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
    3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

    2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
    3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
    * for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

    Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

    Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?


    As an annihilationist do you think annihilation has ever been anything but a small minority view in the church? You provided no evidence, polls, surveys or anything to substantiate your opinions. You also didn't take into account early church universalism, which may have been the majority view:

    "Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years": Universalism...First 500 Years

    "The Ancient History of Universalism":
    https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchab.../©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf

    Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times:
    Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

    Early church writings re final destiny:
    Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries
     
  4. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Lam 3:26  It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD. 31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever: 

    For the Lord will not cast off for ever. Which is not to be understood of all his creatures; for there are some he does cast off for ever, as the angels that sinned; reprobate men, profligate and abandoned sinners, that live and die impenitent; and unbelievers, carnal professors, and apostates; but not his own special and peculiar people, the people whom he has foreknown and loved with an everlasting love, his spiritual Israel; or, as the Targum supplies it, "his servants"; [GILL]

    Psalms 94:12  Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law; 

    Psalms 94:13  That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked. 

    Psalms 94:14  For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance. 
     
  5. alv_c

    alv_c New Member

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    Endless torment is a false teaching. Read this study on what Hell actually is and where it will be The Lake of Lava, the True Mount Zion, and the True Location of Gehenna and the Judgment | Wisdom of God . Then read this study on why "eternal" is a mistranslation Aeonial is Not Eternal, Aeons, and the Mistranslation of Forever and Ever | Wisdom of God .
     
  6. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    You are lost in your translations since there is no endless torment. The translation is that you will "Pay the penalty of everlasting destruction" which is to be annihilated so as to not be able to serve God or to enter His Kingdom. Again you are lost in the translation of Gehenna. It is simply the grave. The fire and brimstone is what comes from God to devour and annihilate and return you to the vapor of smoke that proceeds out of His mouth. "Dust thou are and to dust you shall return."

    However, some are ignorant of God's truth and have not submitted to the righteousness of God:

    Romans 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. (2) For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. (3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
     
  7. alv_c

    alv_c New Member

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    I never said there is endless torment, in fact, I say there is no endless torment. Clearly you did not read the studies and just assumed whatever you wanted to assume. Read and do not be presumptuous.
     
  8. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    You are lost in your translations since the is no endless torment. The translation is that you will "Pay the penalty of everlasting destruction" to be annihilated so as to not be able to serve God or to enter His Kingdom.

    Again you are lost in the translation of Gehenna. It is simply the grave. The fire and brimstone is what comes from God that proceeds out of His mouth to devour and annihilate and return you into a vapor of smoke. "Dust thou are and to dust you shall return.

    However, some are ignorant of God's truth and have not submitted to the righteousness of God:

    Romans 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. (2) For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. (3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
     
  9. RACarvalho

    RACarvalho New Member

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    It is endless because to be righteous, punishment needs to be proportional to the crime.
    God dreamed and built each one of us to glorify Him for the eternity.
    If you rebellion against God and destroy that plan, you are destroying something that was supposed to be eternal, therefore, an eternal punishment.
     
  10. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    It is not punishment it is eternal destruction that is the endless penalty you will pay if you do not obey the words of God or His commandments.

    John 3:36  Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

    Hebrews 5:9  And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

    2 Thessalonians 1:8  In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 

    2 Thessalonians 1:9  who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY]

    Galations 6:8  For he that sows to his own flesh, shall reap corruption from the flesh; but he that sows to the Spirit, from the Spirit shall reap eternal life


    :
     
  11. RACarvalho

    RACarvalho New Member

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  12. alv_c

    alv_c New Member

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    God has predestined who will be delivered and who will not be from before the foundation of the world, and because of this, it would not make sense for eternal torment to happen, for God has appointed the existence of sinners so that through them he may demonstrate his power and wrath, not that they would suffer eternally, and once their purpose is served, they will cease to exist.
     
  13. RACarvalho

    RACarvalho New Member

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    I was in a plane last week where a kid was trying to draw something on a paper to try to understand the Triunity of God....
    He first draw a circle and divided it in 3, then He tried to change the circle to something else and at each point, He got more confused...

    The discussion about election looks like that kid and his pen/paper....
    That is the reason I stick with Spurgeon views that yes, God elects and yes, we have a decision to make if we want salvation or not and both happens at the same time and are not in conflict with each other.
    God is the Creator so he OWNS everything and there is no moral problem if he decide to create somebody just to kill him/her. Also there is no moral problem if He decides to send people to eternal lake of fire for eternal suffering.
    But there is a moral problem when man is created to His image, for His glory and God create this just to send them to hell..... Got that?
    You add that "God so loved THE WORLD..." to the picture and you have a huge inconsistency between your understanding of election and Gods love for THE WORLD...
    To help to explain my standing, I will say that I have 3 children and I love them.
    But I also elected them for blessings and punishment: if they obey, they are elected to blessings, if the do not obey, they are elected to punishment.
    So When God issues the decree that WHOEVER believes in the Son will be saved, He elected believers for Salvation and unbelievers to damnation.

    As for the kid and his pen/paper, I was thinking about that and reach the conclusion that the right drawing will be this:
    A clean paper with a single small dot in the center.....
    The dot is the entire creation, including heavens and earth, angels and man.... All the rest is God.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2019
  14. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    It is called just retribution.

    Hebrews 2:2
    For if the word which was spoken by angels was firm, and every transgression and disobedience received just retribution,

    Pro 10:6  Blessings are upon the head of a righteous man ; but the mouth of the wicked covereth violence. 

    Matthew 13:49
    So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

    Isaiah 45:21 ...and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

    Rev 15:3  And they sing the song of Moses bondman of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and wonderful are thy works, Lord God Almighty; righteous
    are thy ways, thou King of saints.
     
  15. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    James 4:1  From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? 

    James 4:2  Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not. 

    James 4:3  Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. 

    James 4:4  Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
     
    1 John 2:15-17 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. (16) For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. (17) And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

    James 1:14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 

    James 1:15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 

    James 1:16  Do not err, my beloved brethren. 
     
  16. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    As I was pursuing an answer to my trilemma (damnation or annihilation or universal salvation), I came to realize the most central problem with the damnationist position, which is unacknowledged by almost all. It is this - God made Adam, and everyone after, by granting them the Spirit of Life (one of the seven Spirits of God) in the form of breath. I believe that this Spirit returns to God when we die, but what happens to it if we are sent to Hell? To go to Hell, you must be dead, but to suffer there you must be alive and conscious, which means that you must have that Spirit back. There is just no way around it - Hell involves a bit of God's Spirit being there too. I feel it is near to blasphemy at the worst, and very confusing at best.
     
  17. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    but to suffer there you must be alive and conscious which is against Bible teachings which says only God has immortality so it would be impossible to be tortured or to suffer anything but not being allowed into the Kingdom.

    Psalms 28:1  A Psalm of David. Unto thee will I cry, O LORD my rock; be not silent to me: lest, if thou be silent to me, I become like them that go down into the pit. 

    Isaiah 26:14  They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish. 


    Psa_6:5  For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

    1 Timothy 6:16
      [God]Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 
    Romans 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 
    Romans 2:7  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 

    Romans 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 

    Romans 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul [by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being] of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 
     
  18. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    So then, do you agree that to suffer and to be alive in Hellfire forever is against the teaching of the Bible? I'm guessing you are an annihilationist.
     
  19. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    agree
     
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