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Featured If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ClementofA, Dec 28, 2017.

  1. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    yes, it is interesting how some people quote the LXX Greek as authority but when it come to the LXX they forget to give the definition of the word G166 αιωνιος aiwvios as eternal, evelasting, perpetual, immortal as the LXX does!
    I guess some people just like to blabber?
     
  2. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    I was not aware the LXX included a Greek dictionary or a concordance. The truth will be found in what the Writer meant when the word was written, and the waters there have been thoroughly muddied by translators who were bound to a theo-illogical list of doctrines and/or dogmas. Just think what might have happened to the KJV translators if they had failed to follow the instructions of King James, or if they had deviated from supporting the doctrines of the Anglican Church...
     
  3. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    G166 αιωνιος aiwvios as eternal, evelasting, perpetual, immortal as does the LXX on page 10 of the Lexical Concordance under G126 αιδιος ןד is eternal Romans 1:20 and Jude 6 The Apostolic Bible Polygot

    Yes there have been many translators like James Strong before the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.
    CYCLOPEDIA OF BIBLICAL, THEOLOGICAL, AND ECCLESIASTICAL LITERATURE.
    PREPARED BYTHE REV. JOHN M'CLINTOCK, D.D., AND Dr. JAMES STRONG, S.T.D.
    eternal is a long period of time, without reference to beginning or end" (BDAG3). An indefinite period of time, usually a long time, or a time without any end at all.
    αἰώνιος, αἰωνίου, ὁ, ἡ (Masc/Fem, 2-2 type), or
    αἰώνιος, αἰωνία, αἰώνιον (2-1-2)

    Adjective: "eternal, endless; pertaining to an indeterminate amount of time" With regards to created spirits, it can mean "pertaining to an everlasting period of time" — i.e., having begun as God's creation in time, then existing forever after into eternity. However, with reference to God, it means "pertaining to existence outside of time, without beginning or end."

    ἀναλόω (Alternate form: ἀναλίσκω — twice in GNT, Luke 9:54; Gal. 5:15)
    Verb: "consume, destroy, annihilate" Compound of ἀνά ("up") and ἁλίσκω (possibly means: "capture [an enemy], conquer, catch, seize, kill; convict, condemn"). "Do away with something completely by using up" (BDAG3), like a consuming fire, a destructive relationship. Alternate form:
    ἀναλίσκω.
    ἀναλώσω, Future
    ἀνήλωσα, 1st Aorist
    ἀναλωθήσομαι, Future Passive
    ἀνηλώθην, 1st Aorist Passive
    ἀνήλωμαι, Perfect Passive
    ἀναλύω (twice in GNT, Luke 12:36; Philp. 1:23)

    So you can see why Isaiah and Daniel is not completely what we call Canonicity.
    The Book of Isaiah has multiple authors and that the book comprises three separate collections of oracles: Proto-Isaiah (chapters 1–39), containing the words of Isaiah; Deutero-Isaiah (chapters 40–55), the work of an anonymous 6th-century BCE author writing during the Exile; and Trito-Isaiah (chapters 56–66), composed after the return from Exile.
    The Deutero-Isaian part of the book describes how God will make Jerusalem the centre of his worldwide rule through a royal saviour (a messiah) who will destroy her oppressor.
    D = author of Deuteronomy, J= the Jahvistic Document of the Hexateuch, J, P= Priest's Code of the Hexateuch
    Compare Dt. 1:9-13 to Ex. 18:13:36 or Dt. 10:1-4 to Ex. 25:10; 36:2; 37:1 But in no case is any dependence on P is evident and the general view of D is decidedly not that of P. The relation of D to the code P is very different

    Canonicity: This recognition was accorded to the book in the days of Jesus and by Jesus Himself. It has been concurred in by almost the unanimous body of believers. No investigation of a literary historical character can shake its place in the rule of faith.

    DANIEL, BOOK OF, APOCRYPHAL ADDITIONS TO: In the Greek text of the Book of Daniel are found the following additions: (1) The Prayer of Azariah and the Thanksgiving of the Three Children in the Fiery Furnace. (2) The History of Susannah. (3) The Story of Bel and the Dragon. The first of these has a much doter relation to the Book of Daniel than the other two.

    1. The Song of the Three Children. This is apocryphal addition of 67 verses to the Book Daniel inserted after 3 23. The title does not express all the contents of the section, for it con also the Prayer of Azariah (1-22), and a brief tive (23-27) of the heating of the furnace, and of coming of the Angel of the Lord to the Codex B has the heading 'The Prayer of and 'Hymn of the Three.' It has been often that the prayer, which is really as if a nation speaking, confessing its past sins and seeking is singularly inappropriate to the circumstances. too the Hymn is quite as unlikely in such a sit It is more like a litany, and seems to be modeled after Ps 136.

    Both are unauthentic amplifications of the story in the canonical Dn, that are meant to fill out the account of the miraculous deliverence of the three Hebrews by giving the prayer which them offered, beseeching God for deliverance, and the hymn of praise which they sang when they saw that this prayer was answered. It is entirely unknown who composed them.

    Their date also is unknown. They have been preserved for us in the Greek Bible and in the versions made from it.It has been much discussed whether the original of this section was Hebrew or Greek. The question is not easy of settlement, since every extant version is based on the LXX. As yet there is no unaminity in the matter.

    2. The History of Susannah. This apoc addition to the Book of Daniel is entitled in some MSS. 'The Judgment of Daniel.' In Greek and in the Old Latin version it is placed before Dn ch1; in the Vulgate it stands at the end as Dn ch. 13 The Greek text is extant in two recensions, the LXX and that of Theodotion, which differ from each other in some details.

    There are also several Syriac versions. The story is as follows:Susannah, the wife of a wealthy Babylonian Jew was accustomed to walk daily in her garden. Two elders, who had been recently appointed judges, becoming enamored of her beauty, concealed themselves one day in the garden and when Susannah was taking her bath suddenly appeared and made shameless proposals to her. Her outcry discovered them, and to save themselves they publicly accused Susannah of adultery with a young man whom they had found in the garden.

    The innocent woman was condemned to death, but was saved by Daniel,who by sharp cross-questioning exposed the of the falsity elders and secured their punishment.

    This narrative can not be regarded as historical. It is full of improbabilities.

    3. Bel and the Dragon. These are two distinct stories which have been added to the Book of Daniel in the Greek and other versions. They both have as their aim, along with the glorification of D. the exhibition of the emptiness and deception of idolatry. In the story of Bel, Cyrus the Persian king discovers that D. does not worship the Babylonian idol Bel, and calls him to account for his conduct.

    D. denies that Bel is a living god, and offers to prove it. The test is to be made in reference to the daily offering of meat and drink which Bel was supposed to consume. If it should be found that these were made away with by other means than by the god himself, then D. was to be honored. Upon the floor of the temple D. had spread a thin coating of fine ashes and after the food had been deposited before the god, the king himself shut and sealed the door .

    The next morning when the door was opened the food was gone, but the marks of human feet were upon the pavement. This led to the discovery of a secret door, through which the priests with their wives and children had entered the room. The proof was irrefutable, the false priests were slain, and D. was honored.

    In the story of the Dragon the same question was as at issue as to whether it was a living god. Daniel denied it and offered to slay him. The king gave him permission to try, and D. making lumps 'of pitch and fat, and hair' gave them to the dragon whereupon he burst asunder. Babylon was indignant at the death of their god and compelling the king to give up D. cast him into the lion's den, where he was miraculously kept unharmed. The king's wonder at this led him to honor the prophet and to acknowledge the prophet's God.

    Neither of these stories, of course, is authentic, but each is framed from material taken from current legends and ideas. The dragon myth had wide circulation. As in the case of the History of Susannah, the two Greek recensions, that of the LXX, and that of Theodotion, differ in details. The original language of these stories has generally been considered to be Greek.

    Gaster's discovery of an Aramaic Dragon in the Chronicles of Jerahmeel gives strong support to the few who have an Aramaic original and has started again the question of Aramaic originals for them both, yet a clear decision is not possible. Prof. Davies in Charles, Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the 0.T. I (1913), gives reasons for rejecting Gaster's view and favors a Heb. original. The Roman and Greek Churches accept these stories as canonical; the Protestant Church holds be apocryphal. J. S. R.—W. G. J.
    Pages 168-169 Funk and Wagnalls NEW STANDARD BIBLE DICTIONARY edited by MELANCTHON W. JACOBUS, D.D. IN ASSOCIATION WITH AMERICAN, BRITISH,
    AND GERMAN SCHOLARS
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2018
  4. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    He-man, I have read all those books, and was not particularly impressed with them. But...what are you trying to say with all the scholarly references? My opinion of most Bible scholars is that they know the exegesis of all the verses of the Bible...and the ultimate meaning of none of them. Years ago, my father and I took an Old Testament class at the local Baptist seminary, and the instructor did not really teach the OT...he taught the higher critics. I remember one name from that class: Gunkel. My father quit early on, and I had some pointed things to say in the final exam. IMHO, scholasticism leads only to doubts and disbelief.
     
  5. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    You must first learn how to speak the Hebrew. My Professor at the University of San Diego was Hebrew and taught Hebrew just as we were taught English in the first grade. If you take that approach you will be able to reconcile Hebrew with a better understanding.
    Each of these Hebrew words has a specific meaning which the translators have chosen to ignore and just translate all five of these Hebrew words as "heart."

    Because the Hebrew bible is Hebraic in origin, it is written from a very Hebraic perspective. Our own Greco-Roman culture is very different from the Hebrew culture and we do not think in Hebraic terms. For this reason, the translators have removed the Hebraicness of the text and have converted it into one that is more in-line with our Greco-Roman thought. While this may seem trivial, it changes the meaning the original author had intended.

    When doing a word study, such as we are doing here with the word "heart," we are assuming that the Hebrew word behind each English word "heart" is the same. Is this true?

    By simply using a concordance we can easily check each of these translations to see what Hebrew word lies beneath the word "heart." What we find in Genesis 6:5 is the Hebrew word lev, which does mean "heart." In Psalm 40:8 we find the Hebrew word me'ah meaning the "gut." In Exodus 23:9 it is the word nephesh meaning "being" or "person." In Jeremiah 9:8 it is qerev meaning the "insides." In Psalm 7:9 it is kil'yah meaning "kidneys."

    Numbers 16:28 And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that Jehovah hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.

    Job 36:5 Behold, God is mighty, and despiseth not any: He is mighty in strength of understanding.

    Psalm 83:5 For they have consulted together with one consent; Against thee do they make a covenant:

    Proverbs 19:8 He that getteth wisdom loveth his own soul: He that keepeth understanding shall find good.
    Again, the translators have ignored the original text, erased its original Hebraicness and replaced it with words more fitting to Greco-Roman thought. What exactly is the meaning of the Hebrew word lev?

    Addition of words to "fix" the text KJV Genesis 4:1 ...I have gotten a man from the LORD.
    RSV Genesis 4:1 ...I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD."
    In this verse, from two different translations, the underlined words have been added to the text and do not appear in the original Hebrew text. The literal rendering of this verse, from the Hebrew is, "I have gotten a man with the LORD."

    The Hebrew text implies that Hhawa (Eve) had relations with YHWH (the LORD), but it is possible that the Hebrew text is in error (not all that uncommon). It is my opinion that the translator should, at the least, footnote the addition of any words inserted into the text.

    RSV Genesis 32:1-4 Jacob went on his way and the angels of God met him; and when Jacob saw them he said, "This is God's army!" So he called the name of that place Mahanaim. And Jacob sent messengers before him to Esau his brother in the land of Seir, the country of Edom, instructing them, "Thus you shall say to my lord Esau: Thus says your servant Jacob, `I have sojourned with Laban, and stayed until now;

    In this passage, Jacob comes across "angels." Then, he sends off "messengers" to meet with his brother. From this translation we would never have realized that the "angels" Jacob met, are the very same "messengers" he sends to his brother. The Hebrew word behind both of these English words is malakh, literally meaning messengers.

    We are all familiar with the name "Moses," however, the pronunciation of this name comes from the Greek Septuagint (a 2,000 year old translation of the Hebrew Bible). The correct Hebrew pronunciation is Mosheh. Another example of this is the name "Eve," again from the Greek Septuagint. The Hebrew pronunciation is Hhawa.

    Did you know that the word "manna" never occurs in the Hebrew Bible? The word manna, for the bread-like substance that was given to the Israelites while in the wilderness, is actually called mahn. The term "manna" comes from; you guessed it, the Greek Septuagint.
    This use of the Greek Septuagint is not limited to names only, but the translations themselves.

    RSV Genesis 4:8 Cain said to Abel his brother, "Let us go out to the field." And when they were in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel, and killed him.

    The underlined part of this verse is not found in the Hebrew Bible, but comes from the Greek Septuagint. In reality, the Hebrew text is missing what Cain said to his brother. Again, it is my opinion that translator should at least add a footnote stating that this phrase is from the Septuagint and is not found in the Hebrew text.

    You must learn what the dot and dashes are along with the "dagesh" and "patahh",etc.;

    The Hebrew alephbet consists of 22 consonants and no vowels. The vowels are dots and dashes added above and below the consonants. One advantage to Hebrew is that the sound for each letter remains the same unlike English where one has to memorize many variations such as the word circus where one "c" is pronounced like an "S" and the other like a "K".

    ב The "beyt" is pronounced two different ways. If the letter appears with a "dagesh" in the middle of the letter (בּ), it is pronounced "b" as in ball (This form of the letter is called the "beyt"). If the letter appears without the "dagesh" (ב), it is pronounced "v" as in visit (This form of the letter is called a "veyt"). When the "beyt" is prefixed to a word it means "in" or "with."

    אַ The patahh. This vowel is also pronounced "a" as in father.

    Only by studying the original language of the Bible can one see the text in its original state by learning the Hebrew alphabet and then it teaches you the Hebrew vocabulary, how sentences are constructed and then teaches you how to translate the Hebrew text of the Bible for yourself.

    When most people do a word study they will open up Strong's dictionary, look up the word they are studying, read that definition and then move on. But there is much more to a thorough study of a Hebrew word, which will open up a whole new world to the reader.

    Learn the cultural background of the Hebrew language and how to read and interpret ancient Hebrew texts and Inscriptions

    Prior to this modern alphabet, the Hebrew language was written with a more pictographic script, similar to Egyptian hieroglyphs, where each letter was a picture. These pictures help to define the letter within its original Hebrew culture and thereby help to define the words that these letters are written with the Ancient Semitic/Hebrew alphabet from its early pictographic origins to its modern forms as well as its adoption into the Greek and Latin alphabets.

    In conclusion:
    •Know the different stages of the Hebrew alphabet from its ancient origins to its modern form.
    •Recognize the letters in ancient semitic and Hebrew inscriptions
    • Know the meanings of each Hebrew letter based on their original pictograph
    •Learn the different forms of Hebrew root words and how words are formed out of these roots.
    •Learn how the Ancient Hebrew culture and philosophy is closely related to the Hebrew language
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
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  6. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    For once, I agree with you completely. I am currently reading "The Scriptures," a translation from South Africa of all places. It is a delight, and harks back to Hebraic roots. OTOH, you never quite deal with my comments on the hazards of scholarship, and I hope you don't make that an idol in your life.
     
  7. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
    Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

    Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
    Strong's #166 - αἰώνιος - Old & New Testament Greek Lexicon

    Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

    Two Questions
    Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
  8. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    The books and knowledge you receive from mankind are not the ultimate answer. You must first be guided by the Holy Spirit which is why Jesus spoke in parables.
    Mark 4:33 And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear

    34 But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

    Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

    Hosea 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
     
  9. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    My poor man, if only you could hear what the scriptures say!

    Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

    32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

    2 Peter 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;

    Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    Exodus 4:11  And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

    2 Corinthians 4:4 In whom the God of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

    Isa 6:10  Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. 

    John 12:40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. 
     
  10. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The word "world" is a poor translation there. The Greek word for "world" is KOSMOS, but KOSMOS does not occur in that verse (Mt.12:32).

    The Greek word for "forgiven" has a number of different meanings. It is used of Satan in regards to Jesus in Matthew 4:11. If you translate it as "forgive" there then you get a reading of "the devil did FORGIVE Him".

    Here are various meanings given for the Greek word, APHIEMI (Strongs #863):

    "Usage: (a) I send away, (b) I let go, release, permit to depart, (c) I remit, forgive, (d) I permit, suffer." Strong's Greek: 863. ἀφίημι (aphiémi) -- to send away, leave alone, permit

    Remit: "to cancel or refrain from inflicting // remit the penalty"
    Definition of REMIT
    Remit: "cancel or refrain from exacting or inflicting (a debt or punishment)."
    "An example of remit is to pardon someone..."

    So according to Luke 12:10 there is one sin for which a person won't be "let go" or "released" or "remitted", "pardoned", etc.. What he will not be "let go" of, or not "released" from, or not "remitted" or "pardoned" of, is not stated in Lk.12:10.
    Therefore to conclude that such a sin will result in never ending punishment & the person can never be saved is to read something into the verse which is not stated. Consequently Lk.12:10 fails as a "proof text" against Biblical universalism. It's just that simple.

    Perhaps you meant Matthew. But Matthew 12:31-32 does not use the Greek word for "world", which is KOSMOS, but a form of the Greek word AION, meaning "age" or eon".
    Those who commit the sin of Spirit blasphemy won't be "let off" or "released" or "remitted" from the due penalty or consequence for that sin. That consequence is what I detailed in my previous post to you, namely a "death" that sends people to "hell" until they are saved. That penalty or consequence for Spirit blasphemy will not only apply in this "age" but also in the millennial age to come:

    Isa.65:20 Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a
    mere child; the one who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.

    Lk.12:10 & Mt.12:31-32 say nothing about anyone "pay[ing] for this sin". The verse isn't talking about being "forgiven" for this sin, but of a person who commits the sin not being "let go" or "released", which implies some consequences or penalty. What those consequences are, or what that penalty is, is not stated.

    As my previous post showed, certain blasphemers in the Scriptures suffered death, either by stoning, or by other means. Whether or not they could ever be "forgiven" by God is not stated. But they were not to be "pardoned" or "let go" or "released" from the consequences or penalty which was required, e.g. being stoned to death.

    We shouldn't ignore the Biblical context & references to blasphemy & the consequence of death when interpreting Jesus' words in Lk.12:10. He was speaking to Jews whose Scriptures were the Old Testament.

    "When Jesus speaks of pardoning or forgiving a sin, he has in mind something utterly different from an attitude of forgiveness, which in God never ceases; he has in mind instead a release from some obligation, or a canceling of some debt, or a setting aside of some prescribed punishment. It is very close to our idea of forgiving a debt or pardoning a criminal. If a debt is unforgiven, then it must be paid; and once it is paid, it no longer exists. Similarly, if a criminal is unpardoned, then the criminal must serve his or her sentence; and once the sentence is served, there is no longer any need for a pardon. An unforgivable or unpardonable sin, therefore, need not be an uncorrectable sin at all; it is simply one that God cannot deal with adequately in the absence of an appropriate punishment."

    "...when Jesus speaks of forgiveness in the present context, he has in mind, as we noted above, the canceling of some obligation, debt, or prescribed punishment."
    Tom Talbott

    Just what does it mean to say that God will never forgive or pardon a given sin


    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism
    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
     
  11. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Just think what might have happened if people studied Hebrew and Greek and followed the original meaning of the words. Learn the cultural background of the Hebrew language and how to read and interpret ancient Hebrew texts and Inscriptions

    Prior to this modern alphabet, the Hebrew language was written with a more pictographic script, similar to Egyptian hieroglyphs, where each letter was a picture. These pictures help to define the letter within its original Hebrew culture and thereby help to define the words that these letters are written with the Ancient Semitic/Hebrew alphabet from its early pictographic origins to its modern forms as well as its adoption into the Greek and Latin alphabets.
     
  12. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    I thought you like the LXX?
    G166 αιωνιος aiwvios as eternal, evelasting, perpetual, immortal as does the LXX on page 10 of the Lexical Concordance under G126 αιδιος ןד is eternal Romans 1:20 and Jude 6 The Apostolic Bible Polygo.

    tPerhaps you could Learn the cultural background of the Hebrew language and how to read and interpret ancient Hebrew texts and Inscriptions

    Prior to this modern alphabet, the Hebrew language was written with a more pictographic script, similar to Egyptian hieroglyphs, where each letter was a picture. These pictures help to define the letter within its original Hebrew culture and thereby help to define the words that these letters are written with the Ancient Semitic/Hebrew alphabet from its early pictographic origins to its modern forms as well as its adoption into the Greek and Latin alphabets.

    Huh? G863 ἀφίημι aphiēmi From G575 and ἵημι hiēmi (to send; an intensive form of εἶμι eimi (to go)); to send forth, in various applications: - cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.

    Hey, I thought you liked the word αἰών
    Matthew 12:32

    And whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age [G165 αἰών] nor in the coming one . G3195 μέλλω
    G165 αἰών aiōn properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end).
    G3195 μέλλω mellō (through the idea of expectation); to intend, that is, be about to be, do, or suffer something (of persons or things, especially events; in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability, possibility, or hesitation): - about, after that, be (almost), (that which is, things, + which was for) to come, intend, was to (be), mean, mind, be at the point, (be) ready, + return, shall (begin), (which, that) should (after, afterwards, hereafter) tarry, which was for, will, would, be yet.
     
  13. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Is there a point to all that spam? How does it address anything in my post? You refuted nothing that i have posted.

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
    Web Online Help

    213 Questions Without Answers:
    Questions Without Answers
     
  14. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    To refer to the Bible as spam is a curse.
    I thought you liked the word αἰών
    Matthew 12:32
    And whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age [G165 αἰών] nor in the coming one . G3195 μέλλω
    G165 αἰών aiōn properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end).
    G3195 μέλλω mellō (through the idea of expectation); to intend, that is, be about to be, do, or suffer something (of persons or things, especially events; in the sense of purpose, duty, necessity, probability, possibility, or hesitation): - about, after that, be (almost), (that which is, things, + which was for) to come, intend, was to (be), mean, mind, be at the point, (be) ready, + return, shall (begin), (which, that) should (after, afterwards, hereafter) tarry, which was for, will, would, be yet.
    G863 ἀφίημι aphiēmi From G575 and ἵημι hiēmi (to send; an intensive form of εἶμι eimi (to go)); to send forth, in various applications: - cry, forgive, forsake, lay aside, leave, let (alone, be, go, have), omit, put (send) away, remit, suffer, yield up.
    Simple minded if you do not think it is the same as Matthew 12:32  And whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be remitted him, neither in this age nor in the coming one . 
    Sorry Dude the is no remembrance to save you after you are dead!

    1 Thessalonians 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    Matthew 12:32
      And whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be remitted him, neither in this age nor in the coming one . 
    2 Thessalonian 1:7  and to you that are troubled repose with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with the angels of his power, 

    2 Thessalonian 1:8  in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ; 

    2 Thessalonian 1:9  who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, 
     
  15. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No one referred to the Bible as spam & what you posted was a lot of spam that was not the Bible.

    Huh?

    Many atheists today "have no hope" of an afterlife in heaven. But that won't stop Love Omnipotent from saving them:

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

    1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

    Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
    20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

    https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

    Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

    Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism




     
  16. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The Greek word "everlasting" there is the adjective aionion, which is related to the noun, aion meaning "age". Accordingly more literal translations render 2 Thess.1:9 as follows:

    2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

    9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLV)

    who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

    A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

    The Greek adjective aionion, & noun aion, are often used of finite duration in ancient Koine Greek. Here is a list of examples where aionion is finite:

    Two Questions

    The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.

    2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

    Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible. Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

    2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

    9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

    who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

    A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

    Regarding the mistranslation "everlasting" or "eternal" in 2 Thess.1:9: "166 aiṓnios (an adjective, derived from 165 /aiṓn ("an age, having a particular character and quality") –
    properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age);..." Strong's Greek: 166. ???????
    (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal


    A Greek lexicon at the following url states re the Greek word olethron ("destruction") at 2 Thess.1:9:

    "...Hierocles 14, 451b has the thought that the soul of the sinner in Hades is purified by the tortures of hell, and is saved thereby..."

    ὄλεθρος — с греческого на все языки

    As does p.702 of "A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)":

    A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG)
    https://www.amazon.ca/Greek-English-Lexicon-Testament-Christian-Literature/dp/0226039331

    Compare that above statement to:

    "In Ancient Greek mythology, Olethros was the personification of Havoc and probably one of the Makhai. Olethros translates roughly in ancient Greek to "destruction", but often with a positive connotation, as in the destruction required for and preceding renewal."

    Here we see "destruction" is for the good of the person:

    ... deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1Cor 5:5)
    He who is finding his soul will be destroying it, and he who destroys his soul on My account will be finding it. (Mt.10:39)

    Here we see destruction was temporary:

    Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." (Jn.2:19)

    "Does the eschatological destruction of 2 Thessalonians 1:9 exclude all redemptive possibilities? Nothing in the text requires such a reading." Continued at:

    Thomas Talbott: The Inescapable Love of God (part 5)

    II Thessalonians 1:8-9

    Further re 2 Thess.1:9, Jason Pratt said:

    "Which definitely refers to hopeful punishment (and expected salvation in the same day of the Lord to come), not annihilation, when Paul uses it to talk about handing the Stepmom-Sleeping Guy over to Satan for the whole-destruction of the flesh in 1 Cor 5:5.

    "Paul compares it to a birth-pang, which is dangerous but hardly hopeless annihilation (and is generally regarded as very hopeful) at 1 Thess 5:3 (talking about the same day to come).

    "Paul uses the term to describe people killed by God in the past at 1 Cor 10:10, which can hardly be annihilation unless the resurrection of the evil as well as the good is denied.

    "2 Thess 1:9 uses phrases similar to those found in Isaiah 2, talking about the same coming event, which is part of a block of prophecy where those wholly ruined aren't annihilated, but eventually repent of their sins and go to the "survivors" of God's wrath to be reconciled to God, which God accepts washing them clean with spirit and with fire. (Isaiah 4.) Again, far from a result of hopeless annihilation.

    "2 Thess 1 is actually one of my scriptural testimonies 'for' universal salvation."

    Annihilation places huge doubt on Universalism

    Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
    Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
    32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon gives "lasting for an age" as its first definition:
    https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/166.html

    Moulton & Milligan state "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life."
    https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/166.html

    Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

    https://www.christianforums.com/threads/two-questions.8069145/page-4#post-72837159
    http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2931562-does-aionios-always-mean-eternal-ancient.html

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    http://www.city-data.com/forum/chri...scripture-expresses-endless-duration-not.html

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-will-not-change.8070705/page-2#post-72885429

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

    https://www.christianforums.com/thr...-not-cast-off-for-ever.8041512/#post-72126038
     
  17. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    Romans 5:17 For if by the offence of the one death reigned by the one, much rather shall those who receive the abundance of grace, and of the free gift of righteousness, reign in life by the one Jesus Christ:)
    Romans 5:18 so then as it was by one offence towards all men to condemnation, so by one righteousness towards all men for justification of life.
    in Romans 8:4, where it means “the righteousness of the law as fulfilled by us who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit,” so here it denotes Christ’s whole “obedience unto death,” considered as the one meritorious ground of the reversal of the condemnation which came by Adam.

    Such as refuse to fall in with the high purpose of God to constitute His Son a “second Adam,” the Head of a new race, and as impenitent and unbelieving finally perish, have no place in this section of the Epistle, whose sole object is to show how God repairs in the second Adam the evil done by the first.

    (Thus the doctrine of universal restoration has no place here. Thus too the forced interpretation by which the “justification of all” is made to mean a justification merely in possibility and offer to all, and the “justification of the many” to mean the actual justification of as many as believe [Alford, etc.], is completely avoided. [Jameson-Fausset Brown]

    Correction of your verse:
    Col 1:16 That in Christ all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities, all things have been created for him and on behalf of him.
     
  18. he-man

    he-man he-man

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    I thought you liked the LXX?
    G166 αιωνιος aiwvios as eternal, evelasting, perpetual, immortal as does the LXX on page 10 of the Lexical Concordance under G126 αιδιος ןד is eternal Romans 1:20 and Jude 6 The Apostolic Bible

    G165 αἰών aiōn properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end).
    1 Thessalonians 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    Matthew 12:32  And whosoever shall have spoken a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be remitted him, neither in this age nor in the coming one .
     
    2 Thessalonian 1:7  and to you that are troubled repose with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven, with the angels of his power, 

    2 Thessalonian 1:8  in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ; 

    2 Thessalonian 1:9  who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, 

    Strong G3639 ὄλεθρος olethros From ὄλλυμι ollumi a primary word (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, that is, death, punishment: - destruction.

    Thayer Definition: 1) ruin, destroy, death

    KJC destruction, 1 Thessalonians 5:3  While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape., 2Th_1:9,

    1 Timothy 6:9  But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 
     
  19. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

    Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

    Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

    “In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

    Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

    Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

    "He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

    For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

    "Paul declares, however, that the effects of Christ's obedience are far greater for mankind than the effect of Adam's fall. For the third (5:15) and fourth (5:17) times in this chapter he makes explicit use of the 'qal wahomer' ("from minor to major") form of argument that is commonly used in rabbinic literature, expressed by "much more"...cf. earlier use at 5:9,10...And as in the case of the typology previously used (5:14), here, too, the form of the argument is antithetical. The grace of God extended to humanity in the event of Christ's death has abounded "for the many" (5:15b), which corresponds to the "all" of 5:12,18. The free gift given by God in Christ more than matches the sin of Adam and its effects; it exceeds it..."

    "Contrasts are also seen in the results of the work of each. Adam's trespass or disobedience has brought condemnation (κατάκριμα, 5:18); through his act many were made sinners (5:19). Christ's "act of righteousness" results in "justification of life" (δικαίωσιν ζωῆς) for all (5:18). The term δικαίωσιν can be translated as "justification" (NIV, NRSV; but RSV has "acquittal") - the opposite of "condemnation". The word ζωῆς ("of life") is a genitive of result, providing the outcome of justification, so that the phrase may be rendered "justification resulting in life". 108

    108. BDAG 250 (δικαίωσιν): "acquittal that brings life". The construction is variously called a "genitive of apposition", an "epexegetical genitive" or "genitive of purpose". Cf. BDF 92 (S166). The meaning is the same in each case: justification which brings life."

    "The universality of grace in Christ is shown to surpass the universality of sin. Christ's "act of righteousness" is the opposite of Adam's "tresspass" and equivalent to Christ's
    "obedience", which was fulfilled in his being obedient unto death (Phil 2:8). The results of Christ's righteous action and obedience are "justification resulting in life for all persons"...5:18...and "righteousness" for "many" (5:19). The term "many" in 5:19 is equivalent to "all persons", and that is so for four reasons: (1) the parallel in 5:18 speaks in its favor; (2) even as within 5:19 itself, "many were made sinners" applies to all mankind, so "many will be made righteous" applies to all; (3) the same parallelism appears in 5:15, at which "many" refers to "all"; and (4) the phrase "for many" is a Semitism which means "all", as in Deutero-Isaiah 52:14; 53:11-12; Mark...10:45; 14:24; Heb.12:15. The background for Paul's expression is set forth in Deutero-Isaiah, where it is said that "the righteous one"...the Lord's servant, shall make "many" to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their sins ...Isa.53:11..."

    "It is significant, and even astounding, that justification is here said to be world-embracing. Nothing is said about faith as a prerequisite for justification to be effective, nor about faith's accepting it."

    (Paul's Letter To The Romans: A Commentary, Arland J. Hultgren, Eerdmans, 2011, 804 pg, p.227, 229)

    75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
    Web Online Help

    213 Questions Without Answers:
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  20. ClementofA

    ClementofA Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Origen even makes so-called "eternal life" ("eonian life" in literal translations) finite when he speaks of "after eternal life" & "beyond eternal life":

    (19) "And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life." (Origen's Commentary on John 13:19).

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

    Commentary on the Gospel According to John

    In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

    4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

    The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

    Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

    Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

    Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

    Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

    In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

    Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

    Two Questions
    Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

    How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

    Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

    ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

    could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

    12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

    For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
     
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