If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[he-man]

I don't think Dante invented the greek word "inferno", which has nothing to do with fire.
I don't know Dante's work.
I did see the movie "Towering Inferno" though.
I guess i found out the meaning and the root of inferno and inferior and thought: Hey, it doesn't mean fire at all.
I must have put 2 and 2 together and got 5
But there is some confusion between underworld, grave, hell and the lake of fire in the Bible (translations).
Assume all you want.
But you probably know it better than i do.I'm glad we agree there. Interesting. Interesting.Hmmm... The idea that all fallen creatures will be there together is none the less extra intimidating...
To be clear, my idea of hell is not inspired by Dante. I don't know his work.
Yes, i know the often cartoonish imagination of hell, of course.
But i don't believe God or satan has employees there who torture people or something like that.
But i can imagine there is a lot of hate between those who are there, between the kinds of creatures.
I don't think God is present in hades.
That's why it's cold and dark, isolated, removed from God.
As you said and i agreed, God is a consuming Fire for what is not holy.
That means they would be consumed by fire if God were present there.
But this place seems to be where the dead are before Judgement.
It's not the 2nd death, it's the 1st death, the natural physical death, or rather what is after that for the people who are not resting in Abraham's lap.
Correct me if i remember this wrong.
Thanks for your explanations.

Also totally absent from the scriptures is any hint that demons are tormenting sinners. This again comes from Dante's Inferno and other pagan concepts, not from the Bible. Because any "sinning angels" in the presence of God, are also in torment, and their power is made ineffective.

However, it is not totally wrong to understand the after life as "type" of Heaven and Hell. Because from each individual's perspective, it will not be perceived as the same "place", but rather as either torment and darkness you can not escape, or as the paradise you have always longed for. For those judged, they will experience God's presence as eternal darkness.

The cause of the pain is the poor choices that we make, not God. If one thinks of these two different "places" as conditions that we choose to be in, rather than "compartments" God puts us in, it would be more accurate.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Lazarus Short]

Oh, I see then you must be a linguistics Hebrew/Greek translator and know the differences including vocabulary, syntax, and morphology. Which dialect do you use? Paleo-Hebrew, West Semitic or Afroasiatic? And you must be familiar with the Book of Ben Sira. What do you think of allophonic spirantization? Do you think they are pharyngealized? Or do you like uvular or glottal articulation? Do you prefer a voicedvelar fricative or alveolar trill? Which of the above do you prefer for religious service such as prayer?

I limited myself to investigating the KJV, and found it wanting, as an English translation, at least for its slant on the afterlife. Did you not understand when I said I had no problem with God's Word, but only with bad translations? One does not need to be a Greek or Hebrew scholar to find the truth in that area.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

As Jesus Says Himself, Clearly, Praising the Father in Heaven for -
it
is not scholars who know the truth, in any area,

but it is to whom Yahweh Reveals it, who knows.

 

[ClementofA]

The cause of the pain is the poor choices that we make, not God. If one thinks of these two different "places" as conditions that we choose to be in, rather than "compartments" God puts us in, it would be more accurate.
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

What's the difference between destruction and everlasting destruction?

The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias,
often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible.
Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

 

[he-man]

What's the difference between destruction and everlasting destruction?

The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias,
often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible.
Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

This is the difference H5769 עֹלָם עוֹלָם ‛ôlâm From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

Compare H5331, properly a goal, that is, the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (that is, to the most distant point of view): - alway (-s), constantly, end, (+ n-) ever (more), perpetual, strength, victory.

H5329 A primitive root; properly to glitter from afar, that is, to be eminent (as a superintendent, especially of the Temple services and its music); also (as denominative from H5331), to be permanent: - excel, chief musician (singer), oversee (-r), set forward.

G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

G165 αἰών aiōn From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end).

Compare G5550 χρόνος chronos Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.

G104 ἀεί From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever”; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

G166 Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

G166 Mathew 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left, Go from me, cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the false accuser and his messengers:

G166 Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal penal infliction, and the righteous into life eternal.

G166 Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

G166 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

G165 Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

 

[he-man]

What's the difference between destruction and everlasting destruction?
The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.
Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek: Two Questions
2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias, often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Oh, so you are a philosophical linguist?
Despite their similarities, sempiternal and eternal come from different roots. Sempiternal is derived from the Late Latin sempiternalis and ultimately from semper, Latin for always. (You may recognize semper as a key element in the motto of the U.S. Marine Corps: semper fidelis, meaning "always faithful.") Eternal, on the other hand, is derived by way of Middle French and Middle English from the Late Latin aeternalis and ultimately from aevum, Latin for age or "eternity."

Usage notes * In the sense "a comparatively long time, eternity is
always used with the indefinite article (an eternity ). In* philosophy, the common use of eternity' to refer to an infinite time is considered incorrect, ' eternity referring to existence outside of time; existence within time but of an infinite temporal duration is called everlastingness or sempiternity.

Noun sempiternity (uncountable)
1. (philosophy) existence within time but infinitely into the future, as opposed to eternity, understood as existence outside time

Usage notes

* In the sense "a comparatively long time, eternity is always used with the indefinite article (an eternity ). In* philosophy, the common use of eternity' to refer to an infinite time is considered incorrect, ' eternity referring to existence outside of time; existence within time but of an infinite temporal duration is called everlastingness or sempiternity

So please tell me how you translate Job 1:6　 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and ***** came also among them.　

Did You Know?
In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, Satan is usually referred to as diabolos or "slanderer" (from the Greek verb diaballein, "to slander," literally "to throw across"). But in the Greek New Testament, the Hebrew word, which is Satanas or Satan in its Greek form, is used as if it were the devil's proper name. The older Latin translations of the Bible retain Greek diabolos as diabolus, but St. Jerome's version, the Vulgate, calls the devil Satan. Both words were borrowed into Old English.

 

[ClementofA]

This is the difference H5769 עֹלָם עוֹלָם ‛ôlâm From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

Compare H5331, properly a goal, that is, the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (that is, to the most distant point of view): - alway (-s), constantly, end, (+ n-) ever (more), perpetual, strength, victory.

H5329 A primitive root; properly to glitter from afar, that is, to be eminent (as a superintendent, especially of the Temple services and its music); also (as denominative from H5331), to be permanent: - excel, chief musician (singer), oversee (-r), set forward.

G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

G165 αἰών aiōn From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end).

Compare G5550 χρόνος chronos Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.

G104 ἀεί From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever”; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

G166 Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

G166 Mathew 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left, Go from me, cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the false accuser and his messengers:

G166 Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal penal infliction, and the righteous into life eternal.

G166 Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

G166 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

G165 Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

In typical he-man form you ignore what i posted & repeat the same verse again and/or post some other verses without addressing what i've posted. All your verses have been addressed before & you had no answer to how they were shown to be harmonious with Scriptural universalism.

Now, let's see, which of the verses on his list shall i answer today. How about:

G166 Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal penal infliction, and the righteous into life eternal.

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.
Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.
While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

 

[ClementofA]

Psalms 140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Such is a wish or a prayer of David who committed premeditated adultery & murder. Will the prayer be answered? Will the wicked who have died not rise up again? Scripture says all the dead will rise again (e.g. John 5:28-29). Though, barring a miraculous resurrection, if David's enemies died, then they would not rise up again in David's lifetime.

This Greek-English Interlinear translation reads quite differently:

Psa.140:10 [shall fall upon them Coals with fire]; you shall throw them down in miseries, and in no way should they stand. (Apostolic Bible Polygot) Psalms 140 To the director; a psalm to David.

Likewise these translations:

Brenton Septuagint Translation
Coals of fire shall fall upon them on the earth; and thou shalt cast them down in afflictions: they shall not bear up under them.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Burning coals shall fall upon them; thou wilt cast them down into the fire: in miseries they shall not be able to stand.

New American Standard 1977
“May burning coals fall upon them; May they be cast into the fire, Into deep pits from which they cannot rise.
New American Standard Bible
"May burning coals fall upon them; May they be cast into the fire, Into deep pits from which they cannot rise.

If they are dead, then they "cannot rise" in their own power. But God can cause them to rise from the dead. And He will.


Psa.140:10 Dump flaming coals on them and throw them into pits where they can't climb out. (CEV)

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“And coals will come down upon them and they will fall into fire and they will not be able to rise.”
Young's Literal Translation
They cause to fall on themselves burning coals, Into fire He doth cast them, Into deep pits -- they arise not.

"The Psalmist doubtless had before his mind’s eye the picture of Sodom, where burning coals fell on the guilty cities, and where men stumbled into the fire, and when they tried to escape, fell into the deep slime pits, and perished. And, truly, it is but just that, if men lie, and slander, and try to tempt the righteous to their destruction, they should fall into the pits that they have themselves digged."
Psalms 140 Commentary - Spurgeon's Verse Expositions of the Bible

"Into deep pits, that they rise not up again...This was one mode of punishing, by casting a man into a deep pit from which he could not escape, and leaving him to die, Genesis 37:20, Genesis 37:24; Psalm 9:15; Psalm 35:7; Jeremiah 41:7." Psalms 140:10 -

"Psalms 140:10. Let burning coals— Burning coals shall, &c. They shall fall into miry pits. Mudge. The Psalmist seems here to allude to the destruction of the Sodomites."

"...That they rise not up again— That they may never recover their stations of power and wealth, to outrage justice and derange society."

"...burning coals. Put by Figure of speech Metonymy(of Adjunct), App-6, for cruel words and hard speeches which wound the heart as fire wounds the body. Compare Proverbs 16:27; Proverbs 26:23."

Psalms 140:10 -

...Psalm 86:9
9 All nations whom thou hast made shall come and worship before thee, O Lord; and shall glorify thy name.

Psalm 22:27-28
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD’S:
and he is the governor among the nations.

Psalm 72:11
11 Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 72:17
17 His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
ALL the ENDS of the world shall turn unto the Lord.

Psalm 145:9-10
9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

Psalm 136:1
O give thanks unto the LORD; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Gods mercy endures for ever over ALL HIS WORKS.

 

[he-man]

Such is a wish or a prayer of David who committed premeditated adultery & murder. Will the prayer be answered? will the wicked who have died not rise up again? Scripture says all the dead will rise again (e.g. John 5:28-29). Though, barring a miraculous resurrection, if David's enemies died, then they would not have rise up again in David's lifetime.

This Greek-English Interlinear translation reads quite differently:

Psa.140:10 [shall fall upon them Coals with fire]; you shall throw them down in miseries, and in no way should they stand. (Apostolic Bible Polygot) Psalms 140 To the director; a psalm to David.

So you know Hebrew?

This is the difference H5769 עֹלָם עוֹלָם ‛ôlâm From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

Compare H5331, properly a goal, that is, the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (that is, to the most distant point of view): - alway (-s), constantly, end, (+ n-) ever (more), perpetual, strength, victory.

H5329 A primitive root; properly to glitter from afar, that is, to be eminent (as a superintendent, especially of the Temple services and its music); also (as denominative from H5331), to be permanent: - excel, chief musician (singer), oversee (-r), set forward.

G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

G165 αἰών aiōn From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end).

Compare G5550 χρόνος chronos Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.

G104 ἀεί From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever”; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

G166 Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

G166 Mathew 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left, Go from me, cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the false accuser and his messengers:

G166 Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal penal infliction, and the righteous into life eternal.

G166 Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

G166 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

G165 Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

H6965 קוּם qûm A primitive root; to rise
Genesis 4:8 rose up H6965; Genesis 13:17 Arise, H6965; 2 Samuel 15:14 Arise, H6965; Job 14:12 and riseth H6965 not; Nahum 1:9 shall not rise up H6965 the second time.

ABP+ Psalms 140:10 in no wayG3766.2 should they stand.G5307.2
DARBY that they rise not up again.
ESV no more to rise!
ISV never to rise again
WEBSTER that they rise not again
YLT they arise not

 

[he-man]

In typical he-man form you ignore what i posted & repeat the same verse again and/or post some other verses without addressing what i've posted. All your verses have been addressed before & you had no answer to how they were shown to be harmonious with Scriptural universalism. Now, let's see, which of the verses on his list shall i answer today. How about:

The same old broken record.
Did You Know?

In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, Satan is usually referred to as diabolos or "slanderer" (from the Greek verb diaballein, "to slander," literally "to throw across"). But in the Greek New Testament, the Hebrew word, which is Satanas or Satan in its Greek form, is used as if it were the devil's proper name. The older Latin translations of the Bible retain Greek diabolos as diabolus, but St. Jerome's version, the Vulgate, calls the devil Satan. Both words were borrowed into Old English.

 

[ClementofA]

So you know Hebrew?

This is the difference H5769 עֹלָם עוֹלָם ‛ôlâm From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

Compare H5331, properly a goal, that is, the bright object at a distance travelled towards; hence (figuratively), splendor, or (subjectively) truthfulness, or (objectively) confidence; but usually (adverbially), continually (that is, to the most distant point of view): - alway (-s), constantly, end, (+ n-) ever (more), perpetual, strength, victory.

H5329 A primitive root; properly to glitter from afar, that is, to be eminent (as a superintendent, especially of the Temple services and its music); also (as denominative from H5331), to be permanent: - excel, chief musician (singer), oversee (-r), set forward.

G166 αἰώνιος aiōnios From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

G165 αἰών aiōn From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end).

Compare G5550 χρόνος chronos Of uncertain derivation; a space of time (in genitive case, and thus properly distinguished from G2540, which designates a fixed or special occasion; and from G165, which denotes a particular period) or interval; by extension an individual opportunity; by implication delay: - + years old, season, space, (X often-) time (-s), (a) while.

G104 ἀεί From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever”; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

G166 Matthew 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

G166 Mathew 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left, Go from me, cursed, into eternal fire, prepared for the false accuser and his messengers:

G166 Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into eternal penal infliction, and the righteous into life eternal.

G166 Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

G166 1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

G165 Matthew 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

H6965 קוּם qûm A primitive root; to rise
Genesis 4:8 rose up H6965; Genesis 13:17 Arise, H6965; 2 Samuel 15:14 Arise, H6965; Job 14:12 and riseth H6965 not; Nahum 1:9 shall not rise up H6965 the second time.

ABP+ Psalms 140:10 in no wayG3766.2 should they stand.G5307.2
DARBY that they rise not up again.
ESV no more to rise!
ISV never to rise again
WEBSTER that they rise not again
YLT they arise not

As usual your post ignores what i posted & changes the subject to irrelevant stuff.

In typical he-man form you ignore what i posted & repeat the same verse again and/or post some other verses without addressing what i've posted. All your verses have been addressed before & you had no answer to how they were shown to be harmonious with Scriptural universalism.


In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions
Does aionios always mean eternal in ancient Koine Greek? (paradise, Gospel, hell) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

If Jesus wished to express endless punishment, then He would have used expressions such as "endless", "no end" & "never be saved" as per:

How Scripture expresses endless duration (not aion/ios) (paradise, hell, punishment) - Christianity -  - City-Data Forum

Jesus didn't use the best words & expressions to describe endlessness in regards to punishment, because He didn't believe in endless punishment.

ENDLESSNESS not applied to eschatological PUNISHMENT in Scripture:

could an 'eternal punishment' simply mean that once instituted it will not change?

12 points re forever and ever (literally to/into "the ages of the ages") being finite:

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

 

[he-man]

As usual your post ignores what i posted & changes the subject to irrelevant stuff.

In typical he-man form you ignore what i posted & repeat the same verse again and/or post some other verses without addressing what i've posted. All your verses have been addressed before & you had no answer to how they were shown to be harmonious with Scriptural universalism.


In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:

4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)

The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:

Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]

Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ

Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)

Strong's Greek: 152. ??????? (aischuné) -- shame

In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".

Like I said you do not know Hebrew! The word used in Isaiah 54:4 is H1322 Boset and the word used in Daniel 12:2 is H5769 Olam. And [BDB] defines the word G166 aiwvios as eternal, evelasting, perpetual, immortal so and so does the LXX you struck out in all 4 categories. Better luck next time

 

[Lazarus Short]

Like I said you do not know Hebrew! The word used in Isaiah 54:4 is H1322 Boset and the word used in Daniel 12:2 is H5769 Olam. And [BDB] defines the word G166 aiwvios as eternal, evelasting, perpetual, immortal so and so does the LXX you struck out in all 4 categories. Better luck next time

I do not know the Hebrew language, but I do know that some seem to worship scholarship, and I also know that most scholars and theologians follow consensus doctrine, and define words accordingly.

 

[he-man]

I do not know the Hebrew language, but I do know that some seem to worship scholarship, and I also know that most scholars and theologians follow consensus doctrine, and define words accordingly.

I don't think you know what consensus doctrine means. You need to follow the apolitical theology and not the dogma of men.

 

[Choir Loft]

I do not know the Hebrew language, but I do know that some seem to worship scholarship, and I also know that most scholars and theologians follow consensus doctrine, and define words accordingly.

Excellent point. Spot on, in fact.

A point that will no doubt be lost on the self-appointed ministers of spiritual truth hereabouts.

They worship their own words and know not The Word.

Romans 1:22

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

[he-man]

Excellent point. Spot on, in fact.

A point that will no doubt be lost on the self-appointed ministers of spiritual truth hereabouts.

They worship their own words and know not The Word.

Romans 1:22

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

[he-man]

Proverbs 10:14 The wise lay up knowledge, and the mouth of a fool is near ruin.　

 

[ClementofA]

Like I said you do not know Hebrew! The word used in Isaiah 54:4 is H1322 Boset and the word used in Daniel 12:2 is H5769 Olam. And [BDB] defines the word G166 aiwvios as eternal, evelasting, perpetual, immortal so and so does the LXX you struck out in all 4 categories. Better luck next time

Who is BDB, your Pope? God? Scripture says God is the Teacher. And His annointing, not BDB, will lead you into all truth & teach you all. It doesn't mention the opinion of a solitary cherry picked source called BDB. Jesus said to Peter that flesh & blood had not revealed the Christ to him, but the Father in heaven. What are the biases of BDB? Is BDB objective, honest, a lover of money, under the control of Satan who knows Hebrew & mixes lies with truth?

Neither do you know Hebrew. And my post did not address the Hebrew but the Greek of Isa.54, the Greek OT being the Bible of the early church. Furthermore those who do know Hebrew disagree among themselves re what the Scriptures teach. There are those who know Hebrew who accept the true doctrine of biblical universalism. Also those who know Greek (see early church father universalists below) who accept the true biblical teaching of universal salvation. You also ignore this:

Speaking of OLAM, we now turn to Dan.12:2-3, which also supports the above position:

The context suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.

Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf

Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.

Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?

There is no point to go round and round. I do not, nor do the majority of 2.4 billion Christians accept Universalism. It seems only 1 in 3000 Christians are Universalists. I'll go along with the majority, thanks.

As an annihilationist do you think annihilation has ever been anything but a small minority view in the church? You provided no evidence, polls, surveys or anything to substantiate your opinions. You also didn't take into account early church universalism, which may have been the majority view:

"Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years": Universalism...First 500 Years

"The Ancient History of Universalism":
https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchablerich/booksonwebsite/©CPC+The+Ancient+History+of+Universalism.pdf

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times:
Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

Early church writings re final destiny:
Early church writings re final destiny (paradise, Gospel, incarnation, Jehovah) - Christianity - - City-Data Forum

Articles on the history of Christian Universalism throughout the centuries

 

[he-man]

Who is BDB, your Pope? God? Scripture says God is the Teacher. And His annointing, not BDB, will lead you into all truth & teach you all. It doesn't mention the opinion of a solitary cherry picked source called BDB. Jesus said to Peter that flesh & blood had not revealed the Christ to him, but the Father in heaven. What are the biases of BDB? Is BDB objective, honest, a lover of money, under the control of Satan who knows Hebrew & mixes lies with truth?

Neither do you know Hebrew. And my post did not address the Hebrew but the Greek of Isa.54, the Greek OT being the Bible of the early church.

H1322 Boset H5769 Olam And the unlearned do not know who [BDB] is:
BDB= Brown-Driver-Briggs
FRANCIS BROWN, D.D., D.LITT
S.R. DRIVER D.D., LITT. D.
CHARLES A BRIGGS, D.D., D. LITT. 1906
defines the word G166 αιωνιος aiwvios as eternal, evelasting, perpetual, immortal so and so does the LXX

Dan 12:2 And manyH7227 of them that sleepH4480 H3463 in the dustH6083 of the earthH127 shall awake,H6974 someH428 to everlastingH5769 life,H2416 and someH428 to shameH2781 and everlastingH5769 contempt.H1860

Dan 12:3 And they that be wiseH7919 shall shineH2094 as the brightnessH2096 of the firmament;H7549 and they that turn many to righteousnessH6663 H7227 as the starsH3556 for everH5769 and ever.H5703 Greek eons G165 αἰών aiōn From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end).

G104 ἀεί aei From an obsolete primary noun (apparently meaning continued duration); “ever”; by qualification regularly; by implication earnestly: - always, ever.

H5769 עֹלָם עוֹלָם ‛ôlâm From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end).

H5703 עַד ‛ad From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

LXX = Greek
καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι
G2089 ἔτι eti Perhaps akin to G2094; “yet”, still (of time or degree): - after that, also, ever,
εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

ΛΣΞ αἰώνιος, ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti. 37d, Ep.Heb. 9.12: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption —Alasting for an age (αἰών II), perpetual, eternal
"εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνα/αἰῶνας"(into the eon/eons) are both usually rendered "forever".
Perseus Dictionary Entry (Liddell and Scott [and Jones]'s Greek-English Lexicon, 9th ed

αἰώνιος -ία -ον age-long/ unending (adj.) age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting
ἀεί
ἀεί/αἰεί always (adv.)
ἀΐδιος -ον eternal (adj.)

Αbs. οf α people perish J 11: 50. Of individuals (Lev 23: 30) Αc 5: 37; 2 Pt 3: 9; 1 Cl 12: 6; 39: 5 (Job 4: 20).—Esp. οf eternal death (cf. Ps 9: 6f [5f]; 36[37]: 20; 67: 3[68: 2]; 91: 10[92: 9]; Is 41: 11) J 3: 16; 17: 12. άπολέσθαι εiς τδν αίώνα perish forever 10: 28 (Bar 3: 3 ήμεiς άπoλλύμενοι τόν αίώνα). άνόμως ά. Rο 2: 12; μωρώς ά. ΙΕρh 17:

 

[Shempster]

It is interesting how we have to debate the issue using Hebrew and Greek words in relation to English to decide such an important issue.
More astounding than that is the point that God wasn't clear in the text and in the words of Jesus.
It looks as if the two sides simply cannot be truly proven or dis proven.
I suspect that is the exact way God wants it to be. People will just follow the God they know.