If Cessationism is not true then-

[~Anastasia~]

In fact, Cessationists are not holding anyone to any unusual standard. We merely have noted an indisputable fact of history--these things ceased to occupy the position that they held during the early days of the church. The opponents of Cessationism--and these opponents are the ones who concocted the term in order to be condescending towards anyone who's not a Pentecostal--have had to struggle to find some way to theorize that what history records as happening, somehow actually did not happen!

Well, I'm not looking to argue. And it seems like you're talking to someone else?

It has nothing to do with Pentecostals (for me). And I'm not so sure that they ceased holding the position they had in the Church before, if you mean Orthodoxy. (Though discussing tongues gets rather complicated.)

I think maybe it best if I don't really pursue "Cessasionist vs Pentecostal" debates because I wouldn't come down exactly on either side. But certainly we are not Cessationist. The very Eucharist itself at every Divine Liturgy is a work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[disciple1]

Where are all the healers healing the sick and wounded in hospitals today?

Shouldn't this be a common occurrence?

Not talking about prophesying, but healing

I have heard Benny Hinn will heal someone if the price is right, but I also know there are some true miricles, and anyone can do it at times.
Luke chapter 18 verse 1
Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up.

 

[Albion]

Well, I'm not looking to argue. And it seems like you're talking to someone else?

I dunno. It appears I was replying to the post I quoted, but it was a trifle hard to handle, being that it was mainly a series of short questions.

It has nothing to do with Pentecostals (for me).

Well, you were talking about Cessationism, were you not? And that is what previous posts had been about. That is the title of the thread--"What if Cessationism is not true then?" And it is Pentecostal Christians who popularized the word and make the issue a very important part of their thinking.

I think maybe it best if I don't really pursue "Cessasionist vs Pentecostal" debates because I wouldn't come down exactly on either side. But certainly we are not Cessationist. The very Eucharist itself at every Divine Liturgy is a work of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I agree that this issue is not one that coordinates very well with Orthodox theology.

 

[Ken Rank]

Where are all the healers healing the sick and wounded in hospitals today?

Shouldn't this be a common occurrence?

Not talking about prophesying, but healing

I too have seen healing or heard of them from sources I consider to be balanced and reliable. I think the problem is that we distract too easily. In this culture today we can be walking with God but still not as close to Him as we might need to be. After all, it is His Spirit doing the works through us, not us.

 

[Blade]

To many "ism" to keep up with lol. I had to look that word up.. how sad. I surly can't explain it all. I know in America we don't believe. Head over to like South America and other 3rd world nations where the supernatural is real.

So just who is suppose to be out there doing all this? We believe John 3:16..who so ever. The same man ..son of the living God that only spoke the Fathers word also said these signs shall follow them that believe. So.. was it just for some as in the 12? Peter and John.. just gave away what they had in them. Such as I have..give I unto you. Then.. told the people.. you look at us as if we did it by our own power. Its FAITH in that name.

The word of God makes it clear..if we believe or doubt. "And if we know that he hears us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him." Doubt.. "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord."

I like what a brother once said (Chan). I don't listen to him. But I heard him say once. Picture your alone on this island. You see this book "Bible". You never heard of that book before. Now pick it up and read it. We can all talk about Jesus.. born the cross..death rose, the gifts on and on. Most of us if not all can tell you something some one else said about Jesus the cross the gifts etc. Yet it will always come down to you and Him not what so and so said Jesus was really saying or what that verse really means.

The short is this. He gave the command. The PROOF..its not up to us to come up with. He IS who He said or He is not. He said.. lay hands on the sick and they shall. HE said that.. the FATHER said that. Now.. He can't lie can He? We are not the ones healing.. HE IS! That POWER is not us.. its HIM. If He can not lie.. just be like a child and do what He said.

Anyway.. Israel.. boy cancer. They were Jewish that did not believe in Jesus. They called on the Rabbi's to come to the hospital. The man said.. they are STILL waiting for them to come. The brother said.. he remembered there were two men (Jewish) he saw on youtube that believe in Yeshua. So.. he contacted them. Both dropped everything they were doing and came. They prayed. Doctor next day.. had no answers.. the cancer was all gone.

If you ever see me post.. I always try to say "JESUS IS REAL!". It not what I say or you or anyone else. Its what HE SAID! You/we have to believe He is who HE said or He is not. He can do all or He cant. We must believe that if HE said it.. He will do it. It comes down.. to YOU and HIM. Some will see and understand and hear..some wont. Praise GOD glory to Jesus.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

15+ years ago it was a few days before I was to leave for a mission trip to Brazil. I was barefoot, about to put on my socks and cleats to help coach my highschool soccer team. A ball came towards me, I reached out to stop it not noticing the assistant coach running full steam towards the ball. He missed the ball. He didn't miss my foot.

Crushed. Multiple fractures.

The right side of my foot was the beneficiary of his metal cleats. The doctor didn't want to cast it that evening due to the swelling. He told me I wouldn't be able to walk for a few weeks. I told him about my trip to Brazil. He laughed and said there's no way.

I went home, told my team about it. We prayed.

In the morning I was healed. I went back to the doctor, he was in disbelief. We took more x-rays. More disbelief.

That Spring Break I went to Brazil, it was incredible.

Summer.

I took my graduation money and bought a plane ticket and went back to Brazil for the summer to live with the missionary and his family. We were going to go to the jungle and make contact with an unreached people group.

We found them.

Not 5 hours after we had been in the village there was a commotion and the village people came in carrying a young boy who had been injured and his foot had been severed. Gone.

We felt the Holy Spirit. The missionary looked at me, and we went to the boy. The villagers consented. The village shaman, who we instantly knew to be demon possessed felt the Spirit and fled. We put our hands on his foot and prayed. It grew back. We saw it.

The entire village confessed and converted.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I feel that as a white American I can say this. To be honest, the only cessasionists that I have ever met or read material from have been either white Americans or white Europeans that have not been on a mission trip to a third world country where the primary purpose was evangelism.

Very nice post, this really happened? What denomination are you?

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

In fact, Cessationists are not holding anyone to any unusual standard. We merely have noted an indisputable fact of history--these things ceased to occupy the position that they held during the early days of the church. The opponents of Cessationism--and these opponents are the ones who concocted the term in order to be condescending towards anyone who's not a Pentecostal--have had to struggle to find some way to theorize that what history records as happening, somehow actually did not happen!

You are a cessationalist?

 

[Albion]

You are a cessationalist?

Certainly. Tongues DID cease, and it's tongues-speaking that usually is referred to when the matter of cessationism comes up.

But we need to be clear on what we mean by ceased. It does not mean that there never were any experiences of tongues-speaking after a certain era, period. It means that as a prominent feature of church life (which it was in the early days)...that ceased to be the case anymore.

Were there some few individuals here or there, and widely separated by time, who were said to have spoken in tongues? Yes, but that still means that there was a "break in the action" which is a cessation.

It also doesn't mean that they weren't re-introduced in some churches much later. In the 1800s mainly. But, without evaluating whether these particular Pentecostal experiences were genuine, they come after a long period of interruption in tongues-speaking among Christians, so, cessation still occurred.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Certainly. Tongues DID cease, and it's tongues-speaking that usually is referred to when the matter of cessationism comes up.

But we need to be clear on what we mean by ceased. It does not mean that there never were any experiences of tongues-speaking after a certain era, period. It means that as a prominent feature of church life (which it was in the early days)...that ceased to be the case anymore.

Were there some few individuals here or there, and widely separated by time, who were said to have spoken in tongues? Yes, but that still means that there was a "break in the action" which is a cessation.

It also doesn't mean that they weren't re-introduced in some churches much later. In the 1800s mainly. But, without evaluating whether these particular Pentecostal experiences were genuine, they come after a long period of interruption in tongues-speaking among Christians, so, cessation still occurred.

If we say the gifts ceased: why does the gift of teaching, leadership, serving, Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom still exist? These things are related to preaching or delivering a message Sunday in front of a congregation.

I assume they exist

I agree tongues has ceased, I am open to the Gift of Prophesy

 

[~Anastasia~]

Certainly. Tongues DID cease, and it's tongues-speaking that usually is referred to when the matter of cessationism comes up.

But we need to be clear on what we mean by ceased. It does not mean that there never were any experiences of tongues-speaking after a certain era, period. It means that as a prominent feature of church life (which it was in the early days)...that ceased to be the case anymore.

Were there some few individuals here or there, and widely separated by time, who were said to have spoken in tongues? Yes, but that still means that there was a "break in the action" which is a cessation.

It also doesn't mean that they weren't re-introduced in some churches much later. In the 1800s mainly. But, without evaluating whether these particular Pentecostal experiences were genuine, they come after a long period of interruption in tongues-speaking among Christians, so, cessation still occurred.

Always good to define terms and explain what you mean.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Where are all the healers healing the sick and wounded in hospitals today?

Shouldn't this be a common occurrence?

Not talking about prophesying, but healing

In the OT miracles were used as signs of being a true prophet. They needed to be done repeatedly with a large audience such that the masses believed the prophet to be true.

Today, truth has been established with God's word. Miracles no longer serve as testimony to the truth of the words spoken. Today they are just examples of God's grace.

And, I too can testify to a miracle of falling off of the roof and not even needing to be healed for I was protected by a guardian angel and suffered not a scratch. Does that mean every word I speak should be taken without question?

 

[Anguspure]

My son broke his arm by going over the handlebars while riding a bicycle. This was 14 years ago.

It was the day before vacation. We were going to be gone for 8-9 days.

This wasn't a simple break. This was a 90 degree, "I BROKE MY ARM!", break. Right in the middle of his forearm. It snapped like a twig. (He was so brave. Refusing to cry!)

So, off to the hospital. The doctors took him to surgery and set his arm without breaking the skin. I'm glad he was 'out'... that would have hurt!

Hours later he's out of the hospital with a cast. He says he's 'okay' and still wants to go to Florida.

So, with a little hesitation we go ahead and load up and head down to Florida. It was a Saturday and we stopped as soon as we hit the coast for a good nights rest.

The next morning. We get up and go looking for an Orthodox Church that my wife identified the night before.

We found the Church within minutes, and arrived for services early.

The Priest walked straight up to my son and asked to see his arm. My son holds up the cast and shows it to him and explains how it happened. The Priest says, we will have unction today and we will pray for your healing.

Now by this time my oldest daughter and her husband who suffers from Leukemia, who live in Florida, join us at the Church. My son in law asks about what the Priest is talking about...

At the end of services but before the dismissal, the Priest comes out and motions to my son and my son in law to come forward.

He performs the right of unction for them and anoints them with Holy Oil.

Skip forward 10 days... my son is back at the doctor for his first checkup after the break. His mother is with him. I am still at work but arrive home before they return.

My son comes home without a cast! I'm asking my wife why that would be, it can't be healed yet.

She turns to me and says; "They cant find the break." It's gone.

Skip forward 14 years... my son in law has been in full remission until this very day.

Yes, I have reasons to believe.

Forgive me...

Thanks for your awesome story brother.

Forgive me...

 

[Anguspure]

But this is not the issue identified in the OP at the start of the thread. Almost all of us would agree that miracles occur and that God may gift people, at his choosing, as he wills. The issue is whether or not what is called Cessationism is correct or not. The early church experienced all the gifts identified in Corinthians and in great and ongoing numbers. Then it died away EXCEPT for occasional reports. That is what cessationists, so called, point to.

That it is no longer a standard part of Christian life. If it were, there would have been people everywhere available to fix the broken arm or cure leukemia without physicians, etc., not just one person somewhere. But the account that you gave isn't even of this sort, anyway, but instead attributes the healing to the administration of a sacrament.

I asked this sort of angle in another post recently and will be interested to see where this one goes.

Forgive me...

 

[Anguspure]

Healing was most common in the time of Jesus earthly ministry and subsequently that of the Apostles. Healings and other miracles served the purpose of validating their authority.
Today, healings seem to be more frequent in missionary fields. I once had a missionary tell me of seeing a water buffalo raised from the dead. Again I believe miracles are used to confirm the authority of the gospel.
But if miraculous healings were routinely done in hospitals it would diminish the role of faith in our Christian faith. Is faith a virtue when there is not shred of doubt? And from Gods' point of view physical healing is not his greatest priority.
Finally, though I am hesitant to bring this up, is it possible that there is a dearth of miracles in the Western Christian Churches (Europe and North America) because there is a dearth of Christians in those churches?

God Bless
Jax

If you step on the floor in your house, do you have faith in it?

 

[Anguspure]

God works in decency and in order. Hospitals and Medicine are a billion dollar industry. I dont believe it would go well if healers started shutting down hospitals and pharmacies with their healing....

Not so:
Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

When her owners realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities. They brought them before the magistrates and said, “These men are Jews, and are throwing our city into an uproar by advocating customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice.” (Acts 16)

 

[Anguspure]

I have heard Benny Hinn will heal someone if the price is right, but I also know there are some true miricles, and anyone can do it at times.
Luke chapter 18 verse 1
Then Jesus told his disciples a parable to show them that they should always pray and not give up.

I have been told that Benny Hinn has an anointing but my observation is that he is misusing it. Not for me to damage an anointed one but....

 

[Anguspure]

To many "ism" to keep up with lol. I had to look that word up.. how sad. I surly can't explain it all. I know in America we don't believe. Head over to like South America and other 3rd world nations where the supernatural is real.

So just who is suppose to be out there doing all this? We believe John 3:16..who so ever. The same man ..son of the living God that only spoke the Fathers word also said these signs shall follow them that believe. So.. was it just for some as in the 12? Peter and John.. just gave away what they had in them. Such as I have..give I unto you. Then.. told the people.. you look at us as if we did it by our own power. Its FAITH in that name.

The word of God makes it clear..if we believe or doubt. "And if we know that he hears us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him." Doubt.. "But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord."

I like what a brother once said (Chan). I don't listen to him. But I heard him say once. Picture your alone on this island. You see this book "Bible". You never heard of that book before. Now pick it up and read it. We can all talk about Jesus.. born the cross..death rose, the gifts on and on. Most of us if not all can tell you something some one else said about Jesus the cross the gifts etc. Yet it will always come down to you and Him not what so and so said Jesus was really saying or what that verse really means.

The short is this. He gave the command. The PROOF..its not up to us to come up with. He IS who He said or He is not. He said.. lay hands on the sick and they shall. HE said that.. the FATHER said that. Now.. He can't lie can He? We are not the ones healing.. HE IS! That POWER is not us.. its HIM. If He can not lie.. just be like a child and do what He said.

Anyway.. Israel.. boy cancer. They were Jewish that did not believe in Jesus. They called on the Rabbi's to come to the hospital. The man said.. they are STILL waiting for them to come. The brother said.. he remembered there were two men (Jewish) he saw on youtube that believe in Yeshua. So.. he contacted them. Both dropped everything they were doing and came. They prayed. Doctor next day.. had no answers.. the cancer was all gone.

If you ever see me post.. I always try to say "JESUS IS REAL!". It not what I say or you or anyone else. Its what HE SAID! You/we have to believe He is who HE said or He is not. He can do all or He cant. We must believe that if HE said it.. He will do it. It comes down.. to YOU and HIM. Some will see and understand and hear..some wont. Praise GOD glory to Jesus.

WOW!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

For the Orthodox Christian, the anointing with oil == the laying on of hands of those that cannot be there.

Forgive me...

 

[RaymondG]

Not so:
Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a female slave who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. She followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so annoyed that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.

When her owners realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities. They brought them before the magistrates and said, “These men are Jews, and are throwing our city into an uproar by advocating customs unlawful for us Romans to accept or practice.” (Acts 16)

Are you saying you agree or disagree with my post? you only wrote "not so"

 

[Albion]

If we say the gifts ceased: why does the gift of teaching, leadership, serving, Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom still exist? These things are related to preaching or delivering a message Sunday in front of a congregation.

I assume they exist

I agree tongues has ceased, I am open to the Gift of Prophesy

As I tried to explain, the term is an awkward one that has been created by Pentecostals to describe Christians who hold a view about this matter that is at odds with their own. We do not, in fact, say that Tongues or any of the other gifts ended for good and completely at any point in time. We say that the widespread and significant gifts known in the early church ceased to be a widespread and significant part of church life after awhile and now they are given by God much less commonly and to those whom he chooses.

So to those who say that any real Christian must show all these gifts, or else he's not a full Christian and/or that they will be in evidence at every worship service, etc. .. are wrong about that. So if we say such a thing, they call us Cessationists. Yes, we'll answer to it if that word comes up in a discussion like this but it's not necessarily the best term to use.