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If Calvinism is true....

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Ormly

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What I am seeing is pure ignorance spiritually in CF. I am not quiting CF but I am surely cutting back. I will get on when I have nothing better to do.

Have a good day.

The only spiritual ignorance lies with you if you cannot agree with everything in my statement of the facts that are unarguable from scriptiure. Of course an irrational Calvinist will probably make the attempt because that is what he likes to do.
 
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beloved57

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Amen, B57. The diamond analogy is a great one. And your assessment is also spot-on.
__________________

I have used that anology for years and to my dismay it is ignored, but i am thankful when anyone sees it as giving evidence as to what the testing of our lord implied..
 
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beloved57

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The only spiritual ignorance lies with you if you cannot agree with everything in my statement of the facts that are unarguable from scriptiure. Of course an irrational Calvinist will probably make the attempt because that is what he likes to do.

Lol..you dont understand the bible..
 
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Van

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The conditionalism of the subjunctive is premised on the act of the giver giving, if he gives then he will abide forever..
Yes, that is my view. Therefore, John 14:16 teaches we are indwelt forever and thus once indwelt, we cannot lose our salvation, for He will never leave us nor forsake us.

Here is how I put it:
Van said:
Because the mood is subjunctive, "may be" rather than "will be" might be indicated. Do you know? And further, if the circumstance in view is a possibility, rather than a certainty, is the circumstance whether God will send the Helper in response to Christ's request, or in other words, is Christ choice of words asking rather than telling, i.e not assuming that the Father will send the Helper, or is the circumstance in view whether or not the Helper will stay forever. I believe the former view is the idea and therefore "will be with you forever" is the best translation.

MamaZ, does the Greek grammar support such a view? BTW, "eimi" appears in the critical NA or WH text, so you need to look at either of those texts, not the "received text."
 
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nobdysfool

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Lol..you dont understand the bible..

That much is a certifiable fact. Witness the strut and puffery when challenged. Some here can sure tell us when they think we're wrong, but in their minds, we have no right, let alone ability, to tell them when they're wrong. Such is the mind and mindset of the deceived.
 
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Yes, that is my view. Therefore, John 14:16 teaches we are indwelt forever and thus once indwelt, we cannot lose our salvation, for He will never leave us nor forsake us.

Here is how I put it:

MamaZ, does the Greek grammar support such a view? BTW, "eimi" appears in the critical NA or WH text, so you need to look at either of those texts, not the "received text."
eimi


&#949;&#953;&#956;&#953;= to be ( pres ind act 1 sg )eimi</B>

mysql_icon.png
 
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Van

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Thanks MamaZ, and that is exactly how the NIV, the ESV and the HCSB translate eimi in John 14:16, "to be with you forever." But the Online interlinear says the form is "vs" or verb subjunctive, and therefore the NASB, the NKJV, and YLT render it "may be with you forever. I think Beloved57 take on it is correct, that the subjunctive form simply acknowledges the clause is in response to a request.
 
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nobdysfool

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The flaw in the reasoning here is taking the English understanding of "may", as in "possibly" or "potentially", which is a modern understanding, and trying to interpret scripture in light of that understanding, rather than looking at the grammar and usage of the time, in English, or other languages. Elizabethan English differs in usage, syntax, grammatical structure ec. from modern English. The same for King James English. It is hard for translators to sometimes find the right word to convey the sense of the original language, without introducing ideas and implications that are not in the original languages. That is why a multitude of translations, as well as thought and prayer must be engaged before drawing hard and fast conclusions.

We see too much hasty interpretations being drawn solely for the purpose of propping up bad theology, and trying to defeat Calvinism, simply because it is Calvinism. The poster who responded to you is seriously guilty of just such bias, hasty interpretation, and agenda-driven posts. His motivation is not Truth for Truth's own sake, but rather the bludgeoning of Calvinism, and Calvinists, to advance questionable and sloppy interpretation, arrogant supposition, and a desire to dominate the discussion without allowing his views to be scrutinized, nor allowing his bad behavior to be similarly scrutinized. Witness the frequent flooding of the threads with pronouncements and assertions by him, so that his name appears as the last and latest in every active thread.
 
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Ormly

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We see too much hasty interpretations being drawn solely for the purpose of propping up bad theology, and trying to defeat Calvinism, simply because it is Calvinism

Ah, you gotta be talking about me again. I can always tell.

However, not I. I try to defeat Calvinism because it deprives man of the truth of the gospel, i.e., that there is more to it than the redemption-salvation story that by default makes man the central figure in the gospel and not God.
 
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JimfromOhio

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Ah, you gotta be talking about me again. I can always tell.

However, not I. I try to defeat Calvinism because it deprives man of the truth of the gospel, i.e., that there is more to it than the redemption-salvation story that by default makes man the central figure in the gospel and not God.
In this forum, man is serving their own interests that no other kind of spiritual conduct is expected.

Regarding man-centered and God-centered. Apostle Paul wrote, “Your salvation is nothing you have achieved by your good works. It is a gift of God. You receive it by faith. That way no one can boast of his own accomplishments.”
 
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Ormly

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In this forum, man is serving their own interests that no other kind of spiritual conduct is expected.

Regarding man-centered and God-centered. Apostle Paul wrote, &#8220;Your salvation is nothing you have achieved by your good works. It is a gift of God. You receive it by faith. That way no one can boast of his own accomplishments.&#8221;

I know all that and agree with it however, it doesn't have a thing to do with it being man-centered in the minds of a Calvinist or God centered in the minds of those who khow better.. In other words, its irrelevant.
 
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nobdysfool

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The mark of a self-centered man is to assume that all conversation is about him. I was not referring to any individual in particular, because there are several on this forum who do as I spoke about.

Perhaps the operative idea here should be, "If the shoe fits, wear it."
 
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Van

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How can one walk away from Christ who abides in us forever? To say Christ does not abide in us forever (John 14:16) requires that scripture be nullified by the traditions of men. Several translations render it "to be with you forever" including the NIV, the ESV, and HCSB. The context suggests "to be" to be the best translation, even though the NASB, YLT and the NKJV render the phrase "may be with you forever." Since no one can walk away from an indwelt Holy Spirit, no one can lose their salvation. Once born again, our resurrection unto life is predestined.
 
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Ormly

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How can one walk away from Christ who abides in us forever? To say Christ does not abide in us forever (John 14:16) requires that scripture be nullified by the traditions of men. Several translations render it "to be with you forever" including the NIV, the ESV, and HCSB. The context suggests "to be" to be the best translation, even though the NASB, YLT and the NKJV render the phrase "may be with you forever." Since no one can walk away from an indwelt Holy Spirit, no one can lose their salvation. Once born again, our resurrection unto life is predestined.

Yep. Freewill just went out the window and no one born again need be concerned about overcoming anylonger.
 
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Van

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We exercise our will within the confines allowed by God, and those confines are not necessarily static. For example when God hardened the unbelieving Jews, they could not exercise their will any longer and come to Christ, God no longer allowed access.

And yes, when a person is born again, they have, past tense, overcome the world. If they think they are overcoming the world, they are mistaken. Christ overcame the world, and therefore everyone born again "in Christ" has overcome the world. The technical term for this is "salvation."
 
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Ormly

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We exercise our will within the confines allowed by God, and those confines are not necessarily static. For example when God hardened the unbelieving Jews, they could not exercise their will any longer and come to Christ, God no longer allowed access.

Just like Pharoah, correct?

And yes, when a person is born again, they have, past tense, overcome the world. If they think they are overcoming the world, they are mistaken. Christ overcame the world, and therefore everyone born again "in Christ" has overcome the world. The technical term for this is "salvation."

But now they have themselves to overcome, correct? . . . .
 
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