If Calvinism is correct

[ByTheSpirit]

if Calvinism is correct in its assertion that God predestined some for salvation and many others for wrath, would that affect your view or relationship with God in any way?

So in other words, those of you who read this as believers, if you knew even in a brief moment of time that God granted you salvation (Predestination) but has eternally prevented others from being so, would that affect your view or relationship with him in any way?

How would you react to such a revelation? Or would it?

 

[JCFantasy23]

if Calvinism is correct in its assertion that God predestined some for salvation and many others for wrath, would that affect your view or relationship with God in any way?

So in other words, those of you who read this as believers, if you knew even in a brief moment of time that God granted you salvation but has eternally prevented others from being so, would that affect your view or relationship with him in any way?

How would you react to such a revelation? Or would it?

I'm not sure what I think on predestination yet. I see convincing arguments from both sides.

Honestly? Thinking like that reminds me to definitely remember to try and stay humble and not see myself as more important than anyone else.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi BTS, you said that, according to Calvinism, God grants salvation to some, but chooses to prevent others who want it from receiving it. How does God do that (according to Calvinism, that is)?

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Hi BTS, you said that, according to Calvinism, God grants salvation to some, but chooses to prevent others who want it from receiving it. How does God do that (according to Calvinism, that is)?

Predestination IOW

 

[jimmyjimmy]

but has eternally prevented others from being so,

This is incorrect. You have presuppositions, which you don't even realize, and they will always cause you to arrive at the same conclusion, no matter the evidence. Start without the presuppositions, and you might at least understand what Calvinists believe.

 

[St_Worm2]

Predestination IOW

How (according to Calvinism) does God insure that those who would otherwise choose Him and prefer to be with Him in Heaven, end up in Hell instead?

--David

John 3
16 God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.​

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

if Calvinism is correct in its assertion that God predestined some for salvation and many others for wrath, would that affect your view or relationship with God in any way?

No.
The temptation to believe Calvinism might even "almost deceive the elect", but won't be able to.

But you did not ask about Calvinism,
but only about "its assertion"etc etc.....

and that also will not affect the elect, although they may not understand the assertion. (there is no requirement to even think about the assertion, let alone to believe it, to be in the elect).

 

[RC1970]

if Calvinism is correct in its assertion that God predestined some for salvation and many others for wrath, would that affect your view or relationship with God in any way?

So in other words, those of you who read this as believers, if you knew even in a brief moment of time that God granted you salvation (Predestination) but has eternally prevented others from being so, would that affect your view or relationship with him in any way?

How would you react to such a revelation? Or would it?

If I understand your question, my feelings about God choosing some while not choosing others is that God is entirely justified in doing whatever pleases Him. He is under no obligation to save anyone, so His saving some is most gracious. His saving some shows that He is merciful and His not saving others shows that He is also just.

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

(Scratching head) ..I don't even know what a Calvinist is..what they believe...e.t.c...Not because I'm a dunce. I've just never heard of these people.Ever.Guess I'd better Google it..

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is incorrect. You have presuppositions, which you don't even realize, and they will always cause you to arrive at the same conclusion, no matter the evidence. Start without the presuppositions, and you might at least understand what Calvinists believe.

Well, stop being so mysterious and just tell us what you think Calvinism means then.
Oh, wait. I think you have me on ignore and you can't read this.
Maybe if somebody else here could be so kind so as to relay this message to our friendly neighborhood CF forum writer here.

Thank you.
And may God bless you.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If I understand your question, my feelings about God choosing some while not choosing others is that God is entirely justified in doing whatever pleases Him. He is under no obligation to save anyone, so His saving some is most gracious. His saving some shows that He is merciful and His not saving others shows that He is also just.

While God did not have to save us, and while we were not deserving of being saved because we sinned against God, it is naturally within God's good and loving character to set up a plan of salvation so as to forgive us. But God does not just select some to be saved and others to be not saved without any free will choice by the individual to choose Him or not. That would paint God in a bad light.


...

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

While being here for years now I never heard of calvanism until a few months ago while visiting a section I hadn't been to. It came off as...well I can't say due to rules. From what I've seen its a very small amount of people in the world that believe in it.

That said it is 100% unbiblical to think only some get to heaven because they were chosen since the bible is for everyone so they can be saved. Not just some. Actually the bible never even says only certain christians will see heaven. Well technically speaking it does say many who claim to be christians will not see heaven. Which is in reference to, in my view, those who never really accepted Him with their heart or groups of christians that are more cult like.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe that the Bible clearly teaches that a believer can be saved and then lost. The Parable of the Sower, the Parable of the Prodigal Son, the believing widows who turned aside after Satan in 1 Timothy 5, and James 5:19-20 all talk about being saved and then not saved. This of course refutes the idea of Calvinism. I also do not believe men are depraved so badly that they need a regeneration from God just so that they can accept Christ. Yes, God draws all men to Himself and yes, God is the one who can lead us to repent. But God desires all men to be saved. Some will be saved and others will not be saved because man has free will both before they are saved and after they are saved. God is not into force saving anyone.


...

 

[High Fidelity]

How would you react to such a revelation? Or would it?

What I find genuinely most interesting about peoples' approach to this is that there are several themes throughout Scripture that are hard to stomach.

Why did God annihilate the overwhelming majority of humanity? Why does Hell exist in the first place? Why give us the ability to sin?

There are a lot of things that are difficult to accept as truth, just or right, but it does not for one second make them any less true, just or right.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wikipedia says,

"Reformed Christians believe that God predestined some people to be saved. This choice by God to save some is held to be unconditional and not based on any characteristic or action on the part of the person chosen."​

Source:
Calvinism - Wikipedia

And a website called Calvinist Corner says,

"Predestination is the doctrine that God alone chooses (elects) who is saved. He makes His choice independent of any quality or condition in sinful man. He does not look into a person and recognize something good nor does He look into the future to see who would choose Him. He elects people to salvation purely on the basis of His good pleasure. Those not elected are not saved. He does this because He is sovereign; that is, He has the absolute authority, right, and ability to do with His creation as He pleases. He has the right to elect some to salvation and let all the rest go their natural way: to hell. This is predestination."​

Source:
Predestination and calvinism

So yes. I was right. The Calvinist is saying that God chooses some to be saved and chooses others to not be saved.

However, this is wrong and it is NOT what the Bible teaches in any way shape or form.


....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

if Calvinism is correct in its assertion that God predestined some for salvation and many others for wrath, would that affect your view or relationship with God in any way?

So in other words, those of you who read this as believers, if you knew even in a brief moment of time that God granted you salvation (Predestination) but has eternally prevented others from being so, would that affect your view or relationship with him in any way?

How would you react to such a revelation? Or would it?

I will answer for you.
If I knew God was going to save some and damn others beyond my free will choice, then I would be apathetic or uncaring to what I actually do in this life. What I would do really would not matter! Life would be meaningless because God has got his own agenda without me! If I am saved, there should be nothing I could ever do to to be unsaved. If I was damned, then there is nothing I could do to ever be saved. But that does not sound like the God of the Bible. For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that WHOSEVER believes in Him should not perish.

I mean, come on now. Revelation says,

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17).

Jesus says to Jerusalem,

""O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37) (NLT).

Jesus says Jerusalem would not let him to gather them like a hen gathers it's chicks.
Whether or not you believe this is talking about salvation is not important right now.
What is important is that the Lord's will is being thwarted by these pesky Jerusalemites.

So are we to think that Jerusalem was not resisting the will of God in some way in this passage?

I mean, is it ever God's will for a person to sin?

Surely not! God is holy! In fact, 1 Thessalonians 4:3 says that God's will is for us to be holy or it is our Sanctification.

God's will and desire would be for nobody to be in sin ever! If God could make a sinful person saved, then WHY does He not do that?!!

Why Judge the wicked at a Judgment if they are forced against their will to be damned?
It makes no sense!

That would be like creating a robot to kill people and then placing that robot on trial for something you programmed it do. If something is not beyond the programming to do anymore than how can one judge the robot? You can't judge it if it's programming was only to kill and it could do nothing more.


...

 

[St_Worm2]

(Scratching head) ..I don't even know what a Calvinist is..what they believe...e.t.c...Not because I'm a dunce. I've just never heard of these people.Ever.Guess I'd better Google it..

Hi VNC, here are some links that may prove useful to you in your studies:

What is Reformed Theology? (a short article if a quick look is all you are interested in)

Introduction by R.C. Sproul (series called: What Is Reformed Theology?)

Westminster Confession of Faith

Westminster Shorter Catechism​

Reformed theology is the theology of the 16th Century Reformers .. e.g. Martin Luther; John Calvin.....

--David

 

[Victory-N-Christ]

Hi VNC, here are some links that may prove useful to you in your studies:

What is Reformed Theology? (a short article if a quick look is all you are interested in)

Introduction by R.C. Sproul (series called: What Is Reformed Theology?)

Westminster Confession of Faith

Westminster Shorter Catechism​

Reformed theology is the theology of the 16th Century Reformers .. e.g. Martin Luther; John Calvin.....

--David

Thank you.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Wikipedia says,

"Reformed Christians believe that God predestined some people to be saved. This choice by God to save some is held to be unconditional and not based on any characteristic or action on the part of the person chosen."​

Source:
Calvinism - Wikipedia

And a website called Calvinist Corner says,

"Predestination is the doctrine that God alone chooses (elects) who is saved. He makes His choice independent of any quality or condition in sinful man. He does not look into a person and recognize something good nor does He look into the future to see who would choose Him. He elects people to salvation purely on the basis of His good pleasure. Those not elected are not saved. He does this because He is sovereign; that is, He has the absolute authority, right, and ability to do with His creation as He pleases. He has the right to elect some to salvation and let all the rest go their natural way: to hell. This is predestination."​

Source:
Predestination and calvinism

So yes. I was right. The Calvinist is saying that God chooses some to be saved and chooses others to not be saved.

However, this is wrong and it is NOT what the Bible teaches in any way shape or form.


....

Why quote Wikipedia when you could quote the Bible?

And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

– Mt 24:31

now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

– Acts 15:17-18

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

– Romans 8:28- 30

Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

– Rom 8:33

for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

– Romans 9:11

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

 

[St_Worm2]

Thank you.

You're welcome This is no one better (IMHO) than Dr. Sproul to teach this subject (if you are interested in taking a little deeper look into what Reformed theology actually teaches). I would say w/o much hesitation that he is the best known Calvinist living today, and the best teacher I've ever had (and I've been blessed to have a LOT of exceptional teachers/professors ).

He's still a seminary professor and theologian, but he's also the senior pastor at St. Andrews Presbyterian in Orlando, just FYI.