If Calvinism is correct

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Should this be in the deeper fellowship forum as a denomination based study?

 

[Aseyesee]

if Calvinism is correct in its assertion that God predestined some for salvation and many others for wrath, would that affect your view or relationship with God in any way?

So in other words, those of you who read this as believers, if you knew even in a brief moment of time that God granted you salvation (Predestination) but has eternally prevented others from being so, would that affect your view or relationship with him in any way?

How would you react to such a revelation? Or would it?

He would be a hypocrite to me.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

You're welcome This is no one better (IMHO) than Dr. Sproul to teach this subject (if you are interested in taking a little deeper look into what Reformed theology actually teaches). I would say w/o much hesitation that he is the best known Calvinist living today, and the best teacher I've ever had (and I've been blessed to have a LOT of exceptional teachers/professors ).

He's still a seminary professor and theologian, but he's also the senior pastor at St. Andrews Presbyterian in Orlando, just FYI.

I concur. Sproul is great. I even love his laugh.

Here he is in his younger days:

 

[Hank77]

if Calvinism is correct in its assertion that God predestined some for salvation and many others for wrath, would that affect your view or relationship with God in any way?

So in other words, those of you who read this as believers, if you knew even in a brief moment of time that God granted you salvation (Predestination) but has eternally prevented others from being so, would that affect your view or relationship with him in any way?

How would you react to such a revelation? Or would it?

I guess I would have to take the same stance as Spurgeon. On the subject of babies being thrown into the lake of fire, Spurgeon said that went too far for him, that he did not serve a God like Molech. But if he should find out that was true, he would just have to accept it.

I would just have to accept it and hope and pray that I was one of the elect.
Would I look at God differently, no. God is God and He can do only what is right and just. He doesn't make mistakes.

 

[Hank77]

Should this be in the deeper fellowship forum as a denomination based study?

What denomination? The question was put to people who do not believe in Calvinism.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

What denomination? The question was put to people who do not believe in Calvinism.

umm the calvanist denomination ... deeper fellowship is for all denominations and I think the statement of purpose says that denomination specific topics should be in those forums .

 

[ByTheSpirit]

Should this be in the deeper fellowship forum as a denomination based study?

I wasn't sure where to put it. If the mods want to move it they certainly can do so

 

[ByTheSpirit]

umm the calvanist denomination ... deeper fellowship is for all denominations and I think the statement of purpose says that denomination specific topics should be in those forums .

There is no "Calvinist Denomination". Many Denominations hold to Calvinist teachings

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

There is no "Calvinist Denomination". Many Denominations hold to Calvinist teachings

GT seems to be the place to discuss it perhaps. Maybe you could get the thread moved

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why quote Wikipedia when you could quote the Bible?

Question: Why quote Wikipedia when you could quote the Bible?

Answer: Well, because the Bible does not say what Calvinists are saying.

For God and Jesus criticized people for their unbelief. Certainly God and Jesus would not have criticized people if they were not personally responsible for their unbelief.

For God urges the unbeliever to clearly believe within Scripture.

9 "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
(Romans 10:9-11).

And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

– Mt 24:31

"The Elect" is just another way of saying the "Corporate Church" as a whole.

The following Jewish believers in Christ became part of the Church or the Body of Christ and as a result, they became part of "the Elect." The Church is "the Elect" and not any individual alone.

1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, ..."

In other words,

#1. Peter.
#2. Strangers throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

Are the Elect as a whole.

The nation of Israel was elected by the Lord God to be His people. This election is as a nation. Some individuals in the elect had faith in God and others did not. This election is the Old Testament covenant between Israel and God and is the basis for naming the Scriptures the Old Testament, meaning Old Covenant.

3 "And I will give you the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that you may know that I, the LORD, who call you by your name, am the God of Israel.
4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel my elect, I have even called you by your name: I have named you, though you have not known me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God besides me: I girded you, though you have not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is none else." (Isaiah 45:3-6).

Here we see above Israel was "elect" but yet they did not know God.

– Acts 15:17-18

17 "That the rest of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who does all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." (Acts of the Apostles 15:17-18).

Right here in God's Word the word "might." The word "might" suggests a possibility and not a guarantee. For example: If I said to you, "I might be over your house tomorrow." You would not take that as me saying that was a promise or as a guaranteee but as a possibility.

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

– Romans 8:28- 30

I bolded the word "Those" in the passage above for you to see that this Scripture is talking about "corporate election of the church" and it is not talking about individual election. For the word "Those" implies a group and not any one individual alone. For there is no forced election of individuals alone being spoken about here in this passage (regardless of their behavior). We see that it is THOSE [i.e. the corporate faithful church] who LOVE God.

As for the mention of "Those who love God" (i.e. The Corporate Faithful Church): This is not some automatic thing. Jesus gave us the two greatest commandments to love God and to love your neighbor. If loving God and loving your neighbor were just automatic things as a part of God's forced salvation, then God would not have to give us any commandments to tell us how to love. These commandments tell us what WE need to DO. We are not automatically God's love robots doing His will perfectly.

Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

– Rom 8:33

God justifies who? Just anyone?
No. God justifies those who believe. The elect is the corporate church here. Not individuals alone.
For a believer is a part of a collective whole and cannot say they do not have no need of the other body parts. But we see in Revelation certain churches are judged and are not going to make it (See Revelation 2-3).

for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

– Romans 9:11

In Romans 9:11, we have to understand the underlying point Paul is talking about as a whole in the book of Romans. In the book of Romans, Paul is making a point about Justification (Initial Salvation through Jesus, the chosen Messiah) and not by a system of works alone under the false pharisee religion that required "circumcision salvation." Romans 3:1 says, "What advantage then has the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?" Paul says clearly in Galatians 5:2, "that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." For circumcision was something of the Old Law (that is no more) by the New Covenant that was made by Christ's death on the cross.

The Jews at that time had a false system of works salvation (that was never a part of the Old Covenant ways). They were now trying to deceive new believers into being circumcised as a part of the Old Law that was no more as a part of their false religion. These Jews were trying to WILL themselves into God's kingdom without the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

Paul then says of them,

1 "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believes.
5 For Moses describes the righteousness which is of the law, That the man who does those things shall live by them. (Romans 10:1-5).

So Romans 9 is not about Calvinistic Predestination, but it is about the calling of God's purpose through Jesus Christ in whom Israel rejected. It is talking about purpose of election of the corporate church. God is saying He is going to save in the way He says so (with His corporate election of the church) and not in the Jew's way of thinking that they are saved by their willing themselves alone into God's kingdom with their false pharisee religion. The "elect" are a chosen group. Yes, Paul mentions individuals in Romans 9 in regards to His chosen corporate elect (the church). But he does this so as to make a point. The point is that God is speaking about His foreknowledge over men's free will choices (i.e. God's Sovereignty). Scripture says pharoah hardened his own heart to begin with (Exodus 7:14). God is telling the Israelites in Romans 9-11, that they are His elect because God knows they will return, but yet because of their free will choice, they have rejected their Messiah on a corporate or a national level now. Paul says it is his desire that Israel be saved. Yet, they are God's elect.
So just being "elect" does not mean one is saved. Remember, certain churches were in deep spiritual trouble with the Lord in Revelation 2-3. The luke warm church was a church that Christ was going to spew out of his mouth. How can a church go from a saved state to an unsaved state? By what they do. They can start to become unfaithful in certain areas of their life and justify sin and evil.

For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Again, Romans 9:15 hammers home the point about being Justified by Jesus vs. the Jews false pharisee religion that seeked to will themselves into God's kingdom by a system of works alone without Jesus Christ. God is saying He will have compassion in the way that He says according to His Word and it does not depend on the pharisee's will to run but on God who has mercy through Jesus Christ.

We can see from the following verse on election that the individual had to be diligent in order to become one of the elect in the kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. That diligence is faith and obedience for which the person himself is responsible.

10 "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;
11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:10-11).

Why do we have to make our call and election sure if it is something God does alone without our say so?

5 "By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. (Hebrews 11:5-6).

Why are those who come to God told that they "must believe that He is" (i.e. that He exists)?

The following verse indicates that the Gentiles are the elect but have not yet obtained salvation. Paul is hopeful that they may obtain salvation, but the wording shows the possibility they may not. This verse contradicts the theology of Unconditional Election which teaches that election is equal to salvation.

8 "Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel,
9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, [even] to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. (2 Timothy 2:8-10).



Source Used:
Bible Life Ministries - Calvinism - Unconditional Election
(Note: I did use a lot of my own wording and my own points in this post; So this post is not a complete copy and paste job) (May God bless you greatly this fine day).


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[ByTheSpirit]

GT seems to be the place to discuss it perhaps. Maybe you could get the thread moved

A staff member has already commented on the thread here, they saw no issue with it. Like I said if they want it moved they can do so, but the thread was not/is not meant as a doctrine debate. I just wanted to know how people would react to certain things if it were revealed to be true. Thus I didn't put it in the GT forum.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

A staff member has already commented on the thread here, they saw no issue with it. Like I said if they want it moved they can do so, but the thread was not/is not meant as a doctrine debate. I just wanted to know how people would react to certain things if it were revealed to be true. Thus I didn't put it in the GT forum.

Well it didn't used to be acceptable format for the df forum when it was first established and now that it is changed again to spiritual formation it seems less on topic. But unless I were to become mod I would not know the policies now.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Knowing myself, I would be apathetic towards God if I knew He saved some and damned others beyond any free will choice that I had made. I would just sit back and wait for God to make a move.

I think most people who are honest with themselves would also feel this way, as well.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Also, what is the barometer of God choosing some to be saved and others to not be saved?
Does God just randomly make some to be saved and others to not be saved?
Why would God create some to be unsaved? Would that not go against God's good character?
Why would God just choose to create souls just so that they burn forever in the flames of the Lake of Fire?
Sounds kind of saddistic and cruel.


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[Silmarien]

if Calvinism is correct in its assertion that God predestined some for salvation and many others for wrath, would that affect your view or relationship with God in any way?

So in other words, those of you who read this as believers, if you knew even in a brief moment of time that God granted you salvation (Predestination) but has eternally prevented others from being so, would that affect your view or relationship with him in any way?

How would you react to such a revelation? Or would it?

I would most respectfully return Him the ticket.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

"God saw what the people did. He saw that they stopped doing evil. So God changed his mind and did not do what he planned. He did not punish the people." (Jonah 3:10). (ERV).

Now, how can God change his mind in regards to His wrath in the moment with the Ninevites if He already has a pre-set plan from the beginning to damn certain individuals? If God was truly Calvinistic, then this verse would not read like this at all. It would say that God never planned any wrath or judgment against the Ninevites to begin with because God knew that they would repent. Granted, I am not saying God did not know what the Ninevites were going to do. What I am saying is that God would not threaten the Ninevites with punishment if the actual threat was not real. In the Calvinistic world, you are either damned or saved. So no wrath of God should have ever threatened the Ninevites (if they are truly "elect" and saved since the foundation of the world).


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[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Precisely,,, a very debatable topic

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't think Calvinism is even debatable. It has no merits whatsoever in Scripture to even stand potentially in a debate. It loses by a landslide. It is just silly! God would not have a Judgment of sinners if God was the One who did not allow them any other choice but to remain as sinners. Again, that would be like creating a robot that only had the capacity to kill within his programming and yet later putting that robot on trial for it's crimes. It makes no sense to do that!


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[Hank77]

umm the calvanist denomination ... deeper fellowship is for all denominations and I think the statement of purpose says that denomination specific topics should be in those forums .

It is my understanding of the rules that if this discussion was in the Calvinism forum only Calvinist could answer this question freely, as outsiders are only allowed to ask questions.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is my understanding of the rules that if this discussion was in the Calvinism forum only Calvinist could answer this question freely, as outsiders are only allowed to ask questions.

I take his OP (Original Post) to mean he is talking to all believers when he said,

"So in other words, those of you who read this as believers, if you knew..."

Quote By: ~ By the Spirit.​

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