If baptism is essential

[W Jay Schroeder]

Jay,

I try to teach just what the scriptures teach. Read Acts 2:38. Baptism in water and receiving the Holy Spirit occured along with forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:32 says God gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him. Cornelius received the Holy Spirit (this was an exceptional case) to prove to the Jews that the gentiles were accepted by God, and then he was "commanded" to be baptized in water. 1 Cor. 12:13 says that "By one Spirit we are all baptized into the one body." Gal. 4:6 says BECAUSE you are sons God sent forth His Spirit to us so that we cry abba Father..."

So I'm right about 1 John correct. It doesnt say in water does it it just says baptism, used in many places as sympolic to being saved byt he Spirit AS in He will BAPTIZE you with the Holy Spirit. You may want to read 1 Cor. 2:14. According to this passage we cant obey God with out the Spirit, So your passage has nothing to do with getting saved. Cornelius was not a exceptional case, it never says he was, he was just used to show Peter and the others that they to are worthy and not below them. He was saved the same way as any other. He believed and was baptized by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor: 12:13 is of the Holy Spirit because this is how we are cleansed Titus 3:5 which also goes against what you are saying " He saved us NOT because of righteous things we have done( being obedent to get water baptized is a righteous act is it not to you), BUT because of his MERCY. He SAVED us THROUGH the washing of rebirth and renewal (Rom. 6) BY the Holy Spirit.

Yes, Christians possess the same Holy Spirit Peter, Paul, James and John possessed, but the demonstration of the Spirit is not the same through us. Read 2 Cor. 12:12.

Yes your right but this hasnt a thing to do with how we are saved

Please show me a scripture that teaches what you have placed in your post above. You say the Holy Spirit cleanses, as if He forgives our sins. The Bible does not teach that. Scripture is clear that only the blood of Christ cleanses us of sin. The Holy Spirit empowers the Christian to do what is right, IF we yeild to His leading (Rom. 8:9-17; Gal. 5:16-26).

I showed you above one. Who do you think the Holy Spirit is It is God And Christ the Trinity. You got this confused i think. Empowers us after we are saved. again read 1 Cor 2:14 this explain Rom 8:9-17 and Gal 5:16-26

I would encourage you to read more carefully Matt. 28:19-20. Disciples are sent forth (men) to make disciples. The disciples are to baptize those that are discipled (this is not Holy Spirit baptism; you have correctly stated that only Christ can baptize with the Holy Spirit); here human beings are baptizing human beings. After these disciples are baptized they are to be taught everything God has commanded. He had just commanded them to "Go, make disciples, baptizing them..."

So according to what i have shown you above, the disciples ( disciples are those who teach a doctrine or principle) and were water baptized, this would show that water baptism is for after they are saved. So doesnt this show that water baptism is not used in the salvation process but for after salvation.

 

[xenia]

Mr. Fat,

This would be funny if it weren't so sad. The first verse they teach a kid in sunday school and probably the only one politician's ever learn is John 3:16, the requirements of salvation, the new covenant.

But as a Calvinist, when Jesus said "For God so loved the world" you do not believe he meant the whole world, right? Just those He predestined to salvation?

I am not bringing this up to debate the merits of Calvinism but to show that even the most basic and beloved of verses, good old John 3:16, is open to interpretation.

 

[daverain]

.

Acts 17:11, "Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so."

Yes.

This is how -PAUL- was treated by

The Bereans

(who nobly received the truth he spoke. -Unlike those <Synagogue-Jews> in Thessalonica, who had
-rejected- him,
and the-gospel-of-Christ.)



Paul however...
---------------


Was an APOSTLE, who had "SIGNS and WONDERS" following him...


And


Who spoke TRUTH

(believe that he did, because of the 'signs and wonders')

---------------------------------
---------------------------------



As far as 'following' other people of today however...


That's a 'whole other can-of-worms'.



(lol)




.

 

[daverain]

Mr. Fat,

But as a Calvinist, when Jesus said "For God so loved the world" you do not believe he meant the whole world, right? Just those He predestined to salvation?

.

What about...


For God loved THE WHOLE WORLD.

YET...

Surely He knew of those who WOULD RECEIVE HIM.


--------------------------------


POSSIBLY (therefore):


A CERTAIN love exists for the whole world,

AND...

A CERTAIN love exists for Christians.


--------------------------------------



-Peace in Christ.



.

 

[Jim Woodell]

W Jay Schroeder]So I'm right about 1 John correct. It doesnt say in water does it it just says baptism, used in many places as sympolic to being saved byt he Spirit AS in He will BAPTIZE you with the Holy Spirit.

Jay,

I answered your previous post, believe it or not, there was a transmission error and it went south. I spent about an hour on it, so I am moving on to this post.

Regarding 1 John 5:6-13. No I don't think you are correct. You interpret the three witnesses of the Spirit, the Water, and the Blood as the human witness of John. I believe they are the three witness as God's testimony to man's salvation. (1 John 5:7-8). He is saying we will accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is better and "This is the testimoy: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life." (1 John 5:11-12)

It is interesting that all three of these elements are present in Acts 2:38:
Water = baptism
Blood = Forgiveness of sins
Spirit = you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

You may want to read 1 Cor. 2:14. According to this passage we cant obey God with out the Spirit, So your passage has nothing to do with getting saved.

I have read 1 Cor. 2:14. The passage does not say that we cannot obey God, it says, and I quote: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." I have known people who had the outward appearance of obedience, but it turned out that they were devoid of the Spirit of God.

I am not meaning to be nitpicky, but I think it is important for us to read the passage for what it really says.

Cornelius was not a exceptional case, it never says he was, he was just used to show Peter and the others that they to are worthy and not below them. He was saved the same way as any other. He believed and was baptized by the Holy Spirit.

If Cornelius was not an exceptional case, why did Peter have to go back to the beginning for another example (Acts 11:15)?? And what was the beginning? Acts 2:1-4. The beginning of the Christian movement.

1 Cor: 12:13 is of the Holy Spirit because this is how we are cleansed

Jay, Where does 1 Cor. 12:13 say what you are saying. "By one Spirit we are all baptzed into the one body..." Our sins are forgiven by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:22).

Titus 3:5 which also goes against what you are saying " He saved us NOT because of righteous things we have done( being obedent to get water baptized is a righteous act is it not to you), BUT because of his MERCY. He SAVED us THROUGH the washing of rebirth and renewal (Rom. 6) BY the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who is baptized as a "righteous, meritorious act" will not receive forgiveness of sin. Baptism in water is a surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, but I do believe tht Titus 3:5 is referring to the humble submssion of oneself to God in water baptism, and it is because of HIS MERCY, HE SAVED US THROUGH THE WASHING OF REBIRTH AND RENEWAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. All of this harmonizes with Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38; Rom. 6:3-5; Gal. 3:26-28; Col. 2:12; 1 Peter 3:20-21; 1 Cor. 12:13; Matt. 28:19-20.

I showed you above one. Who do you think the Holy Spirit is It is God And Christ the Trinity. You got this confused i think. Empowers us after we are saved. again read 1 Cor 2:14 this explain Rom 8:9-17 and Gal 5:16-26

So according to what i have shown you above, the disciples ( disciples are those who teach a doctrine or principle) and were water baptized, this would show that water baptism is for after they are saved. So doesnt this show that water baptism is not used in the salvation process but for after salvation.

I am assuming by this that you are saying that you have shown me a verse that says the Holy Spirit saves us, but I haven't seen it. It looks like you have changed your mind and are now saying that the Holy Spirit empowers us. That is what the Bible teaches.

No to your last paragraph.

 

[daverain]

I am assuming by this that you are saying that you have shown me a verse that says the Holy Spirit saves us, but I haven't seen it.

Here's one Jim...

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3:3



Do you see?



A man 'sees the kingdom of God' by:


BEING BORN AGAIN.


There.



There's your verse that says:


The Holy Spirit Saves us.








-Peace in Christ.




.

 

[daverain]

Jay,



If Cornelius was not an exceptional case, why did Peter have to go back to the beginning for another example (Acts 11:15)?? And what was the beginning? Acts 2:1-4. The beginning of the Christian movement.

I've addressed the 'Cornelious issue elsewhere.

ONE had suggested that Cornelious had NOT heard any message (and was saved anyway.)

Cornelious DID hear a message.


(By the way... The Beginning refers to the beginning of salvation. More on this later.)


Here's the original reply (this addresses many issues here.):



Peter talking to Cornelious:
--------------------------



To me I've -ALWAYS- SEEN THIS AS:


Peter telling them about Jesus (and what He did for us).

I believe they WERE RECIEVING CHRIST into their hearts as he said the message of TRUTH.

I feel this is 'Natural', to one who's heart God has prepared.

Please re-read this passage (and try to see this):



11:1 Now the apostles and the brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles also had RECEIVED THE WORD OF GOD.

11:2 And when Peter was come up to Jerusalem, they that were of the circumcision contended with him,

11:3 saying, Thou wentest in to men uncircumcised, and didst eat with them.

11:4 But Peter began, and expounded `the matter' unto them in order, saying,

11:5 I was in the city of Joppa praying: and in a trance I saw a vision, a certain vessel descending, as it were a great sheet let down from heaven by four corners; and it came even unto me:

11:6 upon which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw the fourfooted beasts of the earth and wild beasts and creeping things and birds of the heaven.

11:7 And I heard also a voice saying unto me, Rise, Peter; kill and eat.

11:8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath ever entered into my mouth.

11:9 But a voice answered the second time out of heaven, What God hath cleansed, make not thou common.

11:10 And this was done thrice: and all were drawn up again into heaven.

11:11 And behold, forthwith three men stood before the house in which we were, having been sent from Caesarea unto me.

11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction. And these six brethren also accompanied me; and we entered into the man's house:

11:13 and he told us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, Send to Joppa, and fetch Simon, whose surname is Peter;

11:14 who shall speak unto thee WORDS, WHEREBY thou shalt be saved, thou and all thy house.

11:15 And as I began to SPEAK, the Holy Spirit fell on them, EVEN as on US at the beginning.

11:16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how he said, John indeed baptized with WATER; BUT YE shall be BAPTISED in the HOLY SPIRIT.

11:17 If then God gave unto them the like gift as `he did' also unto us, WHEN WE BELIEVED ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, who was I, that I could withstand God?

11:18 And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, SAYING, Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted REPENTANCE unto life.


Please Notice what the bible says about:
---------------------------------------

The Gentiles (in the above passage):


They:
-----

*Recieved the word of God;

*Were saved BY THE WORDS that Peter spoke to them;

*The Holy Spirit thus fell on them "in the same way" as the Apostles, at 'the

beginning' ,

*They were baptised in The Holy Spirit,

when they

*'believed on The Lord Jesus Christ'.



*They had repented unto life.


(This was not a mere 'mystical response' to the 'hypnotic-tone' in Peter's voice.)

(They responded -in their hearts- to a MESSAGE.)


P.S. Please -everyone-, check out my marriage threads (there may be -other- 'tables to overturn', as it were...



-Some of-

My Marriage Threads:
--------------------

(God can tell us if a legal marriage is NOT true love.)

http://www.christianforums.com/t122...-true-love.html

---------------------------------------

(Is divorce EVER an option?)

http://www.christianforums.com/t121...-an-option.html


-----------------------------------------

(God marries the un-saved , as well)

http://www.christianforums.com/t121...ed-as-well.html


------------------------------------------






-Peace in Christ.

 

[daverain]

This was a reply to ONE in another thread, as well.

I provide it for your edification:



1.) Peter went to give a message (Remember, IT'S"...by HEARING." and this doesn't have to be with the ears, either.)

Jesus speaks of sowing "The Word of God."

(The TRUTH about Jesus, DOES save people. They hear, and receive The Holy Spirit.)


2.) When Cornelious was listening to what Jesus did for us...

he (=Cornelious) did NOT have to finish listening to every little detail, before accepting Christ.

It's CLEAR he accepted Christ, then and there.


3.) The Holy Spirit WAS given to save him.


4.) Peter (and the other apostles), HAD a beginning where they received The Holy Spirit (=At Pentecost).


If A (who's saved) leads B to Christ,

B will be like A at the beginning (of salvation).


I repeat:
--------
(This was not a mere 'mystical response' to the 'hypnotic-tone' in Peter's voice.)

(They responded -in their hearts- to a MESSAGE.)




P.S. Please -everyone-, check out my marriage threads (there may be -other- 'tables to overturn', as it were...



-Some of-

My Marriage Threads:
--------------------

(God can tell us if a legal marriage is NOT true love.)

http://www.christianforums.com/t122...-true-love.html

---------------------------------------

(Is divorce EVER an option?)

http://www.christianforums.com/t121...-an-option.html


-----------------------------------------

(God marries the un-saved , as well)

http://www.christianforums.com/t121...ed-as-well.html


------------------------------------------








-Peace in Christ.

 

[W Jay Schroeder]

Jay,

I answered your previous post, believe it or not, there was a transmission error and it went south. I spent about an hour on it, so I am moving on to this post.

Regarding 1 John 5:6-13. No I don't think you are correct. You interpret the three witnesses of the Spirit, the Water, and the Blood as the human witness of John. I believe they are the three witness as God's testimony to man's salvation. (1 John 5:7-8). He is saying we will accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is better and "This is the testimoy: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son does not have life." (1 John 5:11-12)

It is interesting that all three of these elements are present in Acts 2:38:
Water = baptism
Blood = Forgiveness of sins
Spirit = you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.



I have read 1 Cor. 2:14. The passage does not say that we cannot obey God, it says, and I quote: "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." I have known people who had the outward appearance of obedience, but it turned out that they were devoid of the Spirit of God.

I am not meaning to be nitpicky, but I think it is important for us to read the passage for what it really says.



If Cornelius was not an exceptional case, why did Peter have to go back to the beginning for another example (Acts 11:15)?? And what was the beginning? Acts 2:1-4. The beginning of the Christian movement.




Jay, Where does 1 Cor. 12:13 say what you are saying. "By one Spirit we are all baptzed into the one body..." Our sins are forgiven by the blood of Christ (Heb. 9:22).



Anyone who is baptized as a "righteous, meritorious act" will not receive forgiveness of sin. Baptism in water is a surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, but I do believe tht Titus 3:5 is referring to the humble submssion of oneself to God in water baptism, and it is because of HIS MERCY, HE SAVED US THROUGH THE WASHING OF REBIRTH AND RENEWAL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. All of this harmonizes with Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38; Rom. 6:3-5; Gal. 3:26-28; Col. 2:12; 1 Peter 3:20-21; 1 Cor. 12:13; Matt. 28:19-20.




I am assuming by this that you are saying that you have shown me a verse that says the Holy Spirit saves us, but I haven't seen it. It looks like you have changed your mind and are now saying that the Holy Spirit empowers us. That is what the Bible teaches.

No to your last paragraph.

Well you will not do a good job of understanding scripture if you cant even get Titus 3:4-8 right. IT is not water and it is very clear. You said give me a passage that says the Holy Spirit saves us i did and you changed it to fit your ideas. How do you get by water in this passage when it CLEARLY says saved........BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. Before this verse he says we are not saved by any righteous thing we have done, But being water baptized for you would be righteous, and again you ignore this as well. And you ignored 1 Cor. 2:14 which says we cant accept anything of the Spirit without the Spirit. You could also interpret 1 John 5:7,8 with his Spirit which helps us in Truth, the water which is his water baptism by John to signify his comming and beginning minstry and fulfillment of prophecy and his blood as his death to cover our sins. Your interpretation does not fit because it shows the World(verse4) the testimony, it is not a personal one we do to give testimony it is the three giving testimony to the world. You are reading all these with one interpretation in mind, to fit in with the need of water for salvation. God forgives, the blood covers our sins, and the Holy Spirit cleanses us. So what does the water do, nothing. It could be to show our obediance, but as i stated before 1 Cor 2:14 we cant do this with out the Spirit in us already. We dont get the Spirit without the other Three GOD, Christ blood and the Holy Spirit. I Hope I'm not being to mean sounding, it just accured to me i might be, if so sorry. In 1 John 5. it seems to me he is saying that we have a mans testimony, which i gave you two ways. And then he says but we have a better one that is written in our hearts, our salvation which is eternal and no man can take it away.

 

[aggie03]

May I cut in?

Well you will not do a good job of understanding scripture if you cant even get Titus 3:4-8 right.

This is not profitable and is not necessary. I have asked several times (one very recently) that these types of statements be avoided. This nothing more than an appeal to ridicule and does not further your point nor negate Mr. Woodell's. This adds nothing to our discussion.

IT is not water and it is very clear.

I disagree

You said give me a passage that says the Holy Spirit saves us i did and you changed it to fit your ideas. How do you get by water in this passage when it CLEARLY says saved........BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

I presonally don't believe that Mr. Woodell has changed this verse at all. In fact, I'll go ahead and quote it again so that this will be plain for all to see:

Titus 3:4-7 ASV

But when the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love toward man, appeared, (5) not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, (6) which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour; (7) that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I've tried to highlight what I believe to be the most crucial phrases and words to our discussion. We all must remember, though, to keep everything in the proper context of the letters we find it in, so let's always try to help one another with that aspect. Back to the verse...

If you'lll notice in the phrase that we're directly discussing, there is an important word that you seem to be leaving out: "and". According to God's mercy, He saved us through the washing of regeneration AND the renewing of the Holy Spirit. The word "and" is joining to separate things together. Think about it like this:

If you go to an iced cream store and purchase vanilla iced cream, after eating two spoonfulls, which of the following would you say: "I have eaten vanilla iced cream and vanilla iced cream" or "I have eaten vanilla iced cream" ? Obviously the second phrase is correct because you have only eaten one thing. However, were you to eat two separate things, like chocolate and vanilla icead cream, it would then be necessary to say "I have eaten vanilla AND chocolate iced cream".

I believe that the same principle applies here. There are two separate things that are occurring: the washing of regeneration AND the renewing of the Holy Spirit. I believe that the phrase "washing of regeneration" refers specifically to being baptized. Acts 2 shows that baptism is for the remission of sins. It literally is a "washing of regeneration".

Before this verse he says we are not saved by any righteous thing we have done, But being water baptized for you would be righteous, and again you ignore this as well.

I disagree with you again, and I believe perhaps that you misunderstand the significance of baptism. It is not a prideful thing, it is not something that one can boast about. It is not something that is difficult to do so that it somehow merits my being saved. In fact, I would even agree with you that baptism is not really what saves us (though this doesn't make it unnecessary). I believe the Bible is very clear that we are saved by the mercy and grace of God, however, I believe the Bible is equally clear that under the New Covenant God will give this mercy and grace to those who have been baptized for the remission of their sins.

And you ignored 1 Cor. 2:14 which says we cant accept anything of the Spirit without the Spirit.

I believe this may have been taken out of context, and does not lend support to your argument. If you wish to discuss this point separately, I will be more than happy to do so

You could also interpret 1 John 5:7,8 with his Spirit which helps us in Truth, the water which is his water baptism by John to signify his comming and beginning minstry and fulfillment of prophecy and his blood as his death to cover our sins. Your interpretation does not fit because it shows the World(verse4) the testimony, it is not a personal one we do to give testimony it is the three giving testimony to the world. You are reading all these with one interpretation in mind, to fit in with the need of water for salvation.

I do not understand what you are trying to say here. Would you please reword this a little more clearly. 1 John 5:8 seems to be pretty clear that there are three who bear witness to the world.

God forgives, the blood covers our sins, and the Holy Spirit cleanses us. So what does the water do, nothing. It could be to show our obediance, but as i stated before 1 Cor 2:14 we cant do this with out the Spirit in us already.

1 John 5:6-8 ASV This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. (7) And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth. (8) For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one.

What does the verse say the water does? It says the water bears witness in verse 8. How would you explain this? Also notice that the water is specifically listed separate from the Holy Spirit, therefore, it cannot be the Holy Spirit.

We dont get the Spirit without the other Three GOD, Christ blood and the Holy Spirit. I Hope I'm not being to mean sounding, it just accured to me i might be, if so sorry. In 1 John 5. it seems to me he is saying that we have a mans testimony, which i gave you two ways. And then he says but we have a better one that is written in our hearts, our salvation which is eternal and no man can take it away.

I think that you may be taking this entire passage out of its context. However, I will allow you to reply and perhaps clear things up because it may be that I am simply misunderstanding what you are trying to say. I hope that you have had a wonderful day, and I look forward to hearing back from you

 

[daverain]

.

Titus 3:4-7 ASV

Here's something I grabbed off of Google.

While I MAY not agree with everything,

please consider the possibilities.


NOT BY WORKS!
----------------
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5 KJV)

Does "washing" equal water baptism? It does? Book, chapter, and verse please?

Do you have a verse that says water baptism regenerates a dead spirit? I have some that say it doesn't:

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Colossians. 2:11-12 KJV)

When we were born again God did a spiritual operation on us, separating the spirit from the flesh and giving the spirit a new birth. This is where we get the "washing" at from the "Living Water" that puts "off the body of the sins of the flesh." Even so:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV)

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 3:21 KJV)

Here again we see that water does not: regenerate a person, wash away sins, nor save. "Like figures" do not save anybody! Furthermore, the holy Spirit says himself that water baptism does not put away "the filth of the flesh,"!


-------------------


Peace in Christ.




.

 

[Jim Woodell]

.






Here's something I grabbed off of Google.

While I MAY not agree with everything,

please consider the possibilities.


NOT BY WORKS!
----------------
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5 KJV)

Does "washing" equal water baptism? It does? Book, chapter, and verse please?

Do you have a verse that says water baptism regenerates a dead spirit? I have some that say it doesn't:

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Colossians. 2:11-12 KJV)

When we were born again God did a spiritual operation on us, separating the spirit from the flesh and giving the spirit a new birth. This is where we get the "washing" at from the "Living Water" that puts "off the body of the sins of the flesh." Even so:

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV)

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 3:21 KJV)

Here again we see that water does not: regenerate a person, wash away sins, nor save. "Like figures" do not save anybody! Furthermore, the holy Spirit says himself that water baptism does not put away "the filth of the flesh,"!
------------------

Peace in Christ.
.

I refer you to post #130 by Aggie03. He answered this post very well, I think.

Furthermore, the holy Spirit says himself that water baptism does not put away "the filth of the flesh,"!

Whoever wrote this for google did a poor job in this instance.

It is clear to me that Peter is saying the "baptism that now saves us" (1 Pet. 3:21) is not for the purpose of washing the body (like taking your weekly bath (Arkansas people would understand what I mean)), but has spiritual significance. It is a commitment to God.

1 Peter 3:21 also says, "it is the answer of a good conscience toward God." The physical act of baptism is a "line in the sand" for when a person surrenders to the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. I can always take Satan to the day that I was baptized to remind him, and myself, that I am a child of God, if doubts arise.

Daverain, how do you know that you are saved?

 

[Toms777]

I refer you to post #130 by Aggie03. She answered this post very well, I think.

You should read both the post and Aggie's profile more carefully. I disagree with you on both points.

SHE is a HE.

 

[Jim Woodell]

You should read both the post and Aggie's profile more carefully. I disagree with you on both points.

SHE is a HE.

Sorry, I didn't read the profile, SO Tom, this is probably something we can agree on.

Thanks for the correction, and I will correct it.

By the way, you are fast. I just posted that!!

 

[daverain]

.

Daverain, how do you know that you are saved?

"Lord Jesus, I hereby do respond to you and thus, receive you into my heart."

"May Jesus NOW and ALWAYS, be my Lord and Saviour."


(That's how I know.)





Peace in Christ.





.

 

[servant4ever]

38“Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you: 41“ ‘Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.’[a]” (Acts 13:38-41, NIV)

yes, that was Paul speaking in the Book of Acts. No mention of baptism there. Paul also says that it is through Jesus that we have forgiveness of sins. This the first (and only) evangelist sermon we hear out of Paul in the book of Acts and it is after Paul was studying the Scriptures and trying to justify his beliefs with what the Torah said (some "contradictions" he saw from the Pharisaic upbringing to Christianity). He got it straightened out, obviously, if He and Barnabas were the first missionaries sent out from a Church. You would think if baptism is required for salvation, EVERY single passage mentioning salvation would have to mention baptism.

servant4ever

 

[Jim Woodell]

.

"Lord Jesus, I hereby do respond to you and thus, receive you into my heart."

"May Jesus NOW and ALWAYS, be my Lord and Saviour."

(That's how I know.)

Peace in Christ.

Would you PLEASE give me one example from the Bible where your example of how you can "know" you are saved is recorded??

1 John 5:13 "I WRITE this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life."

 

[- DRA -]

38“Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses. 40Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you: 41“ ‘Look, you scoffers,
wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days
that you would never believe,
even if someone told you.’[a]” (Acts 13:38-41, NIV)

yes, that was Paul speaking in the Book of Acts. No mention of baptism there. Paul also says that it is through Jesus that we have forgiveness of sins. This the first (and only) evangelist sermon we hear out of Paul in the book of Acts and it is after Paul was studying the Scriptures and trying to justify his beliefs with what the Torah said (some "contradictions" he saw from the Pharisaic upbringing to Christianity). He got it straightened out, obviously, if He and Barnabas were the first missionaries sent out from a Church. You would think if baptism is required for salvation, EVERY single passage mentioning salvation would have to mention baptism.

servant4ever

Can we please God without faith according to Heb. 11:6?
Where exactly is faith mentioned in Acts 2:37-38,41?

Hmmm. Confused yet? Now go over and carefully read Acts 16:30-34 -- don't stop reading at verse 31 -- continue reading through verse 34. Note what is stated in verse 34 -- "And he rejoiced, having believed." So, at what point did the jailer believe? Think about it.

 

[daverain]

Hmmm. Confused yet?

Now go over and carefully read Acts 16:30-34 -- don't stop reading at verse 31 -- continue reading through verse 34. Note what is stated in verse 34 -- "And he rejoiced, having believed." So, at what point did the jailer believe? Think about it.

Confused?

You should see how ONE could actaully get Infant Baptism out of said passage, if mis-read.


I got the following off of Google. I MAY not agree with everything, but please consider the possibilities, and how ONE is meant to 'read' scripture:
I provide it for your edification:


------




Apologetics Press :: Reason & Revelation
July 2004 - 3[7]:25-R

Do the “Household Baptisms” Justify Infant Baptism?
by Caleb Colley
Printer version | Email this article

On occasion, advocates of infant baptism appeal to Acts 10, Acts 16, and 1 Corinthians 1 for proof that infant baptism is scriptural. Acts 10:24-48 relates the account of Cornelius and his “relatives and close friends” hearing the Gospel and being baptized. Acts 16 includes the accounts of two sets of baptisms: (1) the baptism of the members of Lydia’s family (verse 15); and (2) the baptism of the Philippian jailer and “all his family” (verse 33). Paul revealed that he baptized members of the household of Stephanas (1 Corinthians 1:16). These are the so-called “household baptisms” (see Coffman, 1977, p. 320; Mare, 1984, pp. 192-193). Proponents of infant baptism assume that there were children in Cornelius’ house, Lydia’s family, the jailer’s house, and Stephanas’ house, and that the infants were baptized. Since there is no mention of infants in any of these passages, those who use these passages to justify infant baptism base their claims upon two assumptions: (1) infants were present in the households; and (2) the contexts of Acts 10 and 16 allow for the baptism of infants as part of “household baptisms.”

In each example of “household baptism,” the people who were baptized were ones who had been taught what they needed to do in order to receive salvation (Acts 10:34-43; 16:14, 32; 1 Corinthians 1:16-18; 16:15-16). They were the people who could hear and understand the Word of God (Acts 10:44), believe (10:31-33), and devote themselves to the ministry of the saints (1 Corinthians 16:15). The absence of the noun “belief,” and the verb “believe,” in some of the conversion accounts, does not necessarily imply that the ones who were baptized did not, or could not, believe. Also, the context of the household conversions does not demand that any infants were baptized. Yet, some insist that infants must have been present in the “households,” and that the infants must have been baptized.

Lydia did not live in Philippi (she was from Thyatira, on the other side of the Aegean Sea). Since she was traveling, she probably did not bring her children with her, if she had any. Because oikos seems to denote “property” in this instance, it was probably Lydia’s servants who were baptized (Lydia certainly was wealthy enough to have servants; see Jackson, 2000, pp. 201-02; Lenski, 1944, p. 660). Notice also that, in the case of Lydia’s conversion, the evangelists spoke to a group of women who had “come together,” indicating that the members of Lydia’s household could have been found within that group of women (the very group who was praying and who heard Paul’s message; see Coffman, 1977, p. 313; Lenski, 1944, p. 659).

Some allege that Lydia’s family members were baptized, not because they believed, but only because they were in Lydia’s family, while Lydia herself did believe (e.g., Barnes, 1972, p. 241). This allegation rests on the fact that Acts 16:14-15 denotes Lydia’s belief, but does not specifically reveal that her family believed. The Bible clearly teaches, however, that belief must precede baptism (see Mark 16:16; Acts 8:37; Romans 10:10-11; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 1:21), and that a sinner cannot be forgiven of sin based on the faith of another (Matthew 12:36; Romans 14:12; 1 Peter 2:7; 4:5; 1 John 3:23).

Furthermore, Acts 16:34 (part of the account of a “household baptism”) reports that the Philippian jailer’s family, at the time of the “household baptism,” was made up entirely of “believers” (excluding infants), and the accounts of both Cornelius’ and the jailer’s conversions specifically indicate that candidates for baptism were those who had “heard the word” (Acts 10:44,47). When inspired writers wrote about “hearing” the Word of God, “hearing” often denoted not only the recognition of audible sounds, of which infants are capable, but also understanding the message, of which infants are incapable (see Deuteronomy 5:1; Romans 10:17; Job 13:17; Luke 14:35). The contexts of Acts 10 and Acts 16 imply that meaning of the verb “hear” (akouo). Some base their claim that infants of the jailer’s household were baptized, upon the assumption that there would not have been enough water in a jail to immerse adults. Thus, they say, sprinkling was the mode of baptism, which would have been appropriate for infant baptism. However, Acts 16 suggests that Paul and Silas were not in the jail at the time of the major part of the teaching and the baptism, because they had been “brought out”—likely out of the prison itself—and taken to a place where the prisoners’ stripes could be washed. It was at this place that the baptisms took place, so it is an imposition on the text to imply that Paul and Silas did not have access to enough water for immersion. There are other examples of household conversions, whose contexts attest to the fact that, when “households” of people were baptized, infants were not baptized. When the inspired writers mentioned the so-called “household baptisms,” they said that all believers in the households were baptized. To assert otherwise is to put an unnecessary strain on the text, and to teach that which contradicts unambiguous, definitive Bible teaching (see Mark 16:16; Acts 8:37-38; Romans 10:10-11).

---------------------------


Peace in Christ.





.

 

[aggie03]

Here's something I grabbed off of Google.

While I MAY not agree with everything,

please consider the possibilities.

Ok I'll consider the article in the light of the passage that we find it in. However, I am going to abide by a rule N. B Hardeman (a very good debator) always tried to establish when delaing with the Scriptures. Frequently we fall into committing what he called "an old schoolboy trick" when we talk about the Bible. Someone has brought forth Titus 3 as a passage that we should look at - so we must look at it. We cannot run to a different place in the Bible and simply pit verses one against the other. We must all try to explain and understand Titus 3 within the context of the rest of the Bible, not in opposition to it.

So having said this, I will try to deal with the points put forward in this "google article" without committing the schoolboy fallacy. I will also, however, be watching to make sure that no one else does the same thing .

NOTE: Please don't misunderstand what I am saying; we should try to harmonize the Bible, just not pit verses against each other. If this isn't a clear explanation please let me know.

NOT BY WORKS!
----------------
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3:5 KJV)

Does "washing" equal water baptism? It does? Book, chapter, and verse please?

The phrase "washing" could mean just about anything. The problem here is that God didn't simply say "washing". God has referred to a specific type of washing - "washing of regeneration". This is the point that your article fails to address.

Do you have a verse that says water baptism regenerates a dead spirit? I have some that say it doesn't:

This is the school boy fallacy. Your author runs away from the verse in Titus to others that apparently contradict it rather than trying to explain what the verse means.

In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Colossians. 2:11-12 KJV)

I don't see anywhere in this verse where it states what your author has claimed.

When we were born again God did a spiritual operation on us, separating the spirit from the flesh and giving the spirit a new birth. This is where we get the "washing" at from the "Living Water" that puts "off the body of the sins of the flesh." Even so:

Here he assumes things that the verse seems to contradicts. Colossians 2:12 says that God works through baptism...this does not support your view.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17 KJV)

This is a vague reference that does not prove or disprove anything. This simply states something that I would agree with: when someone becomes a Christian, they are reborn.

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 3:21 KJV)

Here again we see that water does not: regenerate a person, wash away sins, nor save. "Like figures" do not save anybody! Furthermore, the holy Spirit says himself that water baptism does not put away "the filth of the flesh,"!

Your author offers no evidence to support his claims. Simply because he negates something doesn't make it so.

I'm going to keep from commenting at large about this article so as to give you a chance to pick up where your author performed "the schoolboy trick". It wouldn't be fair for me to introduce this guideline (which I think will help us all once properly understood and enacted), and then simply dismiss this entire post because it didn't follow that new rule.

I am trying to be fair

I hope that you've had a good day, and I look forward to hearing back from you