If baptism is essential

[muffler dragon]

As a public service, here is a list of all (to my knowledge) possible proof texts that can be used to argue an assertion that baptism is necessary for salvation. All can be refuted.

The only problem is that some refuse to understand that.

Again, sorry to but into your thread. Since I really have no interest in this argument, I will leave. God bless you all.

What's with this feigned humility? You're too old (and aged like a fine wine) to think that will slip by that easily. You know you are loved all over the world!!!

Have a great weekend, brother! Enjoy that Rocky Mountain Winter!

Love, peace, hair grease.

m.d.

 

[Toney]

m.d.,

Our little liberal forum, Whosoever Will May Come, has a couple of threads on the front page right now that may be of interest to you. I hope you, Andyman and others will pay us a visit.

I also tire of dualing proof texts quite easily. At WWMC we seldom go there, having a general distaste for religous absolutes.

Quick edit-in: Thanks to all for making me feel welcome here. I had never visited the non-denominational forum before.

 

[muffler dragon]

m.d.,

Our little liberal forum, Whosoever Will May Come, has a couple of threads on the front page right now that may be of interest to you. I hope you, Andyman and others will pay us a visit.

I also tire of dualing proof texts quite easily. At WWMC we seldom go there, having a general distaste for religious absolutes.

You know, there's a post-modern thread in GT you'd probably get a kick out of.

I'll head over to your neck o' the woods and see what's going on.

 

[aggie03]

As a public service, here is a list of all (to my knowledge) possible proof texts that can be used to argue an assertion that baptism is necessary for salvation. All can be refuted.

Matthew 28:19-20; Mark 16:16; Luke 7:30; John 3:5; John 19:34; Acts 2:38; Acts 8:35-38; Acts 10:48; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-4; I Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 5:25-26; Colossians 2:12; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 10:22 and I Peter 3:19-21.

Again, sorry to but into your thread. Since I really have no interest in this argument, I will leave. God bless you all.

Your assertion has yet to be proved. The verses may be contested - this thread is proof of that - but the idea, the understanding, the belief that God has commanded those who wish to become Christians to be baptized for the remission of their sins has never been refuted.

I also believe that Andy was quite right - you're welcome here any time you'd like

 

[Jim Woodell]

DRA / Stinker / Jim / Wes..........etc.

Would you guys do me a favor and list out all the verse you use to substantiate the doctrine of Baptismal regeneration (ie Baptism saves).

Thanks.

Andyman,

If you read the article by Bert Thompson you know that the term baptismal regeneration is a misnomer. I think also there is a difference in saying, "baptism saves" and saying that is where God places the forgiveness of sins.

In 1 Peter 3:21 scripture states, "And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrectionof Jesus Christ." As Noah built the ark and people found safety inside it while God used water to dispell the wickedness of the world, now there is safety and security in Christ and God has chose to use water as a medium to bring people into the body of Christ (Gal. 3:26-28; Col. 2:12).

If a person truly believed in baptismal regeneration he could force people to be baptized and they would be saved whether they wanted to be or not! No one that I know believes this. I don't believe in baptismal regeneration, but I do believe that baptism is a "faith response" to Jesus Christ and is where God placed "forgiveness of sins" (Acts 2:38;22:16).

I sing with enthuiasm the song, NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS. You are probably familiar with it. "What can wash away my sins, what can make me whole again, ..."

What I believe the Bible teaches is that God placed forgiveness at baptism. That is when the (what) blood of Jesus washes away our sins.

Some folks will say: "Oh, that is salvation by works!" and then turn around and say, "What you really need to do is call on the name of the Lord in prayer!" or "What you really need to do is confess Jesus before man." or "Invite Jesus into your heart." etc., etc.

Perhaps you are one who believes a person is saved by Divine Election and you don't do anything, but in all of the cases above, whether baptism or one of the others people are exercising their human will to accept the Lord. As for me I believe we ought accept the salvation God offers as a gift (Romans 5:15-17; 6:23) in the way that God has directed in his word (Mark 16:15-16) and has provide examples of throughout Acts (Acts 2:22-24,36-47; Acts 8; Acts 9; Acts 10; Acts 16; Acts 18; Acts 19:1-5).

When God gave what is commonly called the Great Commission in Matt. 28:19-20 he commanded that men "make disciples and baptize them" and then teach them to "observe all things I have commanded you." What had he just commanded? Make disciples and baptize them. This was a work of disciples. Also, he pointed out that this would last till the end of the age!

HOpe this helps with understanding where some of us are coming from. JESUS saves!!

 

[Andyman_1970]

Andyman,

If you read the article by Bert Thompson you know that the term baptismal regeneration is a misnomer. I think also there is a difference is saying, "baptism saves" and saying that is where God places the forgiveness of sins.

I'll be sure and look that up when I get home.

Perhaps you are one who believes a person is saved by Divine Election!!

Nope, I'm not a Calvinist by any stretch of the imagination.

HOpe this helps with understanding where some of us are coming from. JESUS saves!!

Thank you Jim for your pleasant post, I appreciate it.

 

[jsfrk2]

If a person truly believed in baptismal regeneration he could force people to be baptized and they would be saved whether they wanted to be or not! No one that I know believes this. I don't believe in baptismal regeneration, but I do believe that baptism is a "faith response" to Jesus Christ and is where God placed "forgiveness of sins" (Acts 2:38;22:16).

I think this is the most accurate position on the subject, Because we are saved by Grace through faith, not of works,right?

 

[W Jay Schroeder]

Andyman,

If you read the article by Bert Thompson you know that the term baptismal regeneration is a misnomer. I think also there is a difference in saying, "baptism saves" and saying that is where God places the forgiveness of sins.

In 1 Peter 3:21 scripture states, "And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you - not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrectionof Jesus Christ." As Noah built the ark and people found safety inside it while God used water to dispell the wickedness of the world, now there is safety and security in Christ and God has chose to use water as a medium to bring people into the body of Christ (Gal. 3:26-28; Col. 2:12).

In 1 Peter 3:21 naoh built the ark by Faith and God did use water to dispell the wickedness of the world. BUT God now uses the Holy Spirit to cleans us as a medium to him through Christ. Notice he says "this water now symbolizes what cleanses you now, not the removal of dirt(because its spiritual) but by a good conscience towards God". So like then noahs Faith compelled him and he built the ark and water cleansed the earth, Now by Faith you believe in him and the Holy Spirit cleanses your soul. It is about the individual now not the world. Cleansed as ion what Titus 3:4-7 say. So by this the other passages you mention are of the one baptism of the Holy Spirit.

If a person truly believed in baptismal regeneration he could force people to be baptized and they would be saved whether they wanted to be or not! No one that I know believes this. I don't believe in baptismal regeneration, but I do believe that baptism is a "faith response" to Jesus Christ and is where God placed "forgiveness of sins" (Acts 2:38;22:16).

I sing with enthuiasm the song, NOTHING BUT THE BLOOD OF JESUS. You are probably familiar with it. "What can wash away my sins, what can make me whole again, ..."

What I believe the Bible teaches is that God placed forgiveness at baptism. That is when the (what) blood of Jesus washes away our sins.

Some folks will say: "Oh, that is salvation by works!" and then turn around and say, "What you really need to do is call on the name of the Lord in prayer!" or "What you really need to do is confess Jesus before man." or "Invite Jesus into your heart." etc., etc.

Perhaps you are one who believes a person is saved by Divine Election and you don't do anything, but in all of the cases above, whether baptism or one of the others people are exercising their human will to accept the Lord. As for me I believe we ought accept the salvation God offers as a gift (Romans 5:15-17; 6:23) in the way that God has directed in his word (Mark 16:15-16) and has provide examples of throughout Acts (Acts 2:22-24,36-47; Acts 8; Acts 9; Acts 10; Acts 16; Acts 18; Acts 19:1-5).

When God gave what is commonly called the Great Commission in Matt. 28:19-20 he commanded that men "make disciples and baptize them" and then teach them to "observe all things I have commanded you." What had he just commanded? Make disciples and baptize them. This was a work of disciples. Also, he pointed out that this would last till the end of the age!

HOpe this helps with understanding where some of us are coming from. JESUS saves!!

well in matt. it says "make disciples, baptizing them into" its not disciples and baptize its disciples, baptizing. They were all one sentence. It wasnt a discription of how to do some act. it was to go make disciples(teach) and they will be saved by the name, power and virtue of God. Which they certainly did.

 

[Jim Woodell]

In 1 Peter 3:21 naoh built the ark by Faith and God did use water to dispell the wickedness of the world. BUT God now uses the Holy Spirit to cleans us as a medium to him through Christ. Notice he says "this water now symbolizes what cleanses you now, not the removal of dirt(because its spiritual) but by a good conscience towards God". So like then noahs Faith compelled him and he built the ark and water cleansed the earth, Now by Faith you believe in him and the Holy Spirit cleanses your soul. It is about the individual now not the world. Cleansed as ion what Titus 3:4-7 say. So by this the other passages you mention are of the one baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I'm sorry. I don't know what version of scripture you are quoting from, but I have never read such a translation. The NIV translates 1 Peter 3:20-21, "In it (the ark) only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also - not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ..."

I agree that God uses the Holy Spirit to cleanse our lives of sin (that is not the same as forgiveness), by His empowerment. Only the blood of Christ can take away sin (Heb. 9:22). The promised Holy Spirit is connected with water baptism in Acts 2:38 and is promised to the obedient in Acts 5:32. We are also taught in scripture that we must be born of water and the Spirit to enter God's kingdom (John 3:3-7), and that because we are Sons of God he has sent His Spirit into our hearts (Gal. 4:6). You cannot read Romans 8 and not see that the Holy Spirit is given to aid the Christian in overcoming the pull of the flesh (Romans 8:9-17).

It is also interesting that God tells us that it is by His Spirit that we are baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13), and that there are three who bear witness to our salvation (1 John 5:6-9).

When I study the cases of conversion in the book of Acts I see the enactment of the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20) and how the disciples baptized those that chose to follow Christ (Acts 2:36-47; 8:1-40). In the case of the Ethiopian we know that JESUS was preached but the Ethiopian wanted to be baptized in water. Have you ever wondered why? AND have you ever noticed in the Bible those desiring salvation were baptized immediately (like the Ethiopian)? The Jailer was baptized after midnight, along with all of his family (Acts 16:25-34). Why the urgency??

This is not "baptismal regeneration." It is loving God and doing as he commands.

 

[daverain]

.

I really can't understand how some people can deny grace.

There were people in Acts who received the baptism of The Holy Spirit before they were baptised with water.

How can they deny it?

It's really sad.

Here's a (possible) reason...



(possible) Reason:
------------------

Many people are afraid to disagree with their

'proud-exalted-false-pastor',

who BURDENS, LIES-TO, AND FLEECES THEM.
-------------------------------------------

.

 

[W Jay Schroeder]

I'm sorry. I don't know what version of scripture you are quoting from, but I have never read such a translation. The NIV translates 1 Peter 3:20-21, "In it (the ark) only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also - not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ..."

I agree that God uses the Holy Spirit to cleanse our lives of sin (that is not the same as forgiveness), by His empowerment. Only the blood of Christ can take away sin (Heb. 9:22). The promised Holy Spirit is connected with water baptism in Acts 2:38 and is promised to the obedient in Acts 5:32. We are also taught in scripture that we must be born of water and the Spirit to enter God's kingdom (John 3:3-7), and that because we are Sons of God he has sent His Spirit into our hearts (Gal. 4:6). You cannot read Romans 8 and not see that the Holy Spirit is given to aid the Christian in overcoming the pull of the flesh (Romans 8:9-17).

It is also interesting that God tells us that it is by His Spirit that we are baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13), and that there are three who bear witness to our salvation (1 John 5:6-9).

When I study the cases of conversion in the book of Acts I see the enactment of the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20) and how the disciples baptized those that chose to follow Christ (Acts 2:36-47; 8:1-40). In the case of the Ethiopian we know that JESUS was preached but the Ethiopian wanted to be baptized in water. Have you ever wondered why? AND have you ever noticed in the Bible those desiring salvation were baptized immediately (like the Ethiopian)? The Jailer was baptized after midnight, along with all of his family (Acts 16:25-34). Why the urgency??

This is not "baptismal regeneration." It is loving God and doing as he commands.

So you do teach that the baptism of water and the Holy Spirit are the same, yet its not they are different and mean very different things. As for this 1 John 5:8 you think its the Spirit water baptiusm and his blood on the cross, but what do you go by. Read John 19:34 "Instead, on of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear bringing a sudden flow of BLOOD and WATER. The man who saw it has given TESTEMONY, and his TESTEMONY is TRUE" . You do know this is prophecy fullfilled and that is why it is said in 1 John 5:9 the next verse, " We accept man's testimony, but Gods testimony is greater because... read on and see that it is believing in Gods son into his heart John 3:16. As for 1 Peter 20-22 you still dont get it, it says TROUGH not BY, in Hebrews it says in 11:7 it speaks of Faith and this faith made him build the ark which saved him, but it was his faith that saved him everything else was just what was done to show this faith. The water purified the earth then but now your Faith saves you and the Holy Spirit cleanses you.This water symbolizes baptism that now saves you, what baptism the ONE baptism of Christ whom John the baptist spoke of, of the holy Spirit, which he wanted Christ to give him, but Jesus said"let it be so FOR NOW". Read galations 3:2 which you will not answer. did you receive the spirit by observing the law or by BELIEVING what you heard. Matt. 28:19 disciple(teach) and Baptize into, BELIEVE AND RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. When you receive the holy Spirit it cleanses you. NO WATER BAPTISM is mentioned or needed. WE are JUSTIFIED BY OUR FAITH. READ Rom. 5 it shows this so much it hard to believe you cant see it. And God never commanded any ordances except in the old testement and in Hebrews 9:10 he did away with them in the new order. As for the born of water and spirit we already showed this to be a natural birth, if this were as you say then there was no reason to say the Spirit gives birth to the Spirit, since you say the water gives you the spirit.And in the same conversation he says John 3:16, which would go against what he just said if you go by your thinking.

 

[Jim Woodell]

I think this is the most accurate position on the subject, Because we are saved by Grace through faith, not of works,right?

We are saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9), but WHEN?? The WHEN has been the subject of this thread for the most part. The WHO is JESUS. The WHAT is the blood of Christ. Obviously (at least to me) if a person does not respond from faith (believeing God is and that God rewards those that seek him (Heb. 11:6)) the response is of no value, BUT that still does not answer the WHEN?

I think we ought to take God at his word (Mark 16:16;Acts 2:38; 22:16). God placed the when of salvation at baptism. The act of baptism properly depicts the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Baptism is the surrender of a believer to Jesus; it is a burial from which one rises to "walk in newness of life." (Rom. 6:3-4).

 

[xenia]

"I thank thank God that I baptized none of you but Crispus and Gaius;

Why did Paul thank God that he didn't baptize more people? He gives the answer in the same sentence:

Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

This verse doesn't answer the question either way; it explains why Paul was leery of baptizing people himself.

 

[ydouxist]

xenia Why did Paul thank God that he didn't baptize more people? He gives the answer in the same sentence.

Luke 18:9-14

[9] To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: [10] "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [11] The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men -- robbers, evildoers, adulterers -- or even like this tax collector. [12] I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'

Self righteous

[13] "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'

Righteous

[14] "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."


Good works will not produce righteous
But righteous will produce good works

 

[xenia]

I have never met a single Christian who was confident in his own righteouness. Not one.

 

[Jim Woodell]

So you do teach that the baptism of water and the Holy Spirit are the same, yet its not they are different and mean very different things. As for this 1 John 5:8 you think its the Spirit water baptiusm and his blood on the cross, but what do you go by. Read John 19:34 "Instead, on of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear bringing a sudden flow of BLOOD and WATER. The man who saw it has given TESTEMONY, and his TESTEMONY is TRUE" . You do know this is prophecy fullfilled and that is why it is said in 1 John 5:9 the next verse, " We accept man's testimony, but Gods testimony is greater because... read on and see that it is believing in Gods son into his heart John 3:16. As for 1 Peter 20-22 you still dont get it, it says TROUGH not BY, in Hebrews it says in 11:7 it speaks of Faith and this faith made him build the ark which saved him, but it was his faith that saved him everything else was just what was done to show this faith. The water purified the earth then but now your Faith saves you and the Holy Spirit cleanses you.This water symbolizes baptism that now saves you, what baptism the ONE baptism of Christ whom John the baptist spoke of, of the holy Spirit, which he wanted Christ to give him, but Jesus said"let it be so FOR NOW". Read galations 3:2 which you will not answer. did you receive the spirit by observing the law or by BELIEVING what you heard. Matt. 28:19 disciple(teach) and Baptize into, BELIEVE AND RECEIVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. When you receive the holy Spirit it cleanses you. NO WATER BAPTISM is mentioned or needed. WE are JUSTIFIED BY OUR FAITH. READ Rom. 5 it shows this so much it hard to believe you cant see it. And God never commanded any ordances except in the old testement and in Hebrews 9:10 he did away with them in the new order. As for the born of water and spirit we already showed this to be a natural birth, if this were as you say then there was no reason to say the Spirit gives birth to the Spirit, since you say the water gives you the spirit.And in the same conversation he says John 3:16, which would go against what he just said if you go by your thinking.

Jay,

I try to teach just what the scriptures teach. Read Acts 2:38. Baptism in water and receiving the Holy Spirit occured along with forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:32 says God gives the Holy Spirit to those that obey him. Cornelius received the Holy Spirit (this was an exceptional case) to prove to the Jews that the gentiles were accepted by God, and then he was "commanded" to be baptized in water. 1 Cor. 12:13 says that "By one Spirit we are all baptized into the one body." Gal. 4:6 says BECAUSE you are sons God sent forth His Spirit to us so that we cry abba Father..."

Yes, Christians possess the same Holy Spirit Peter, Paul, James and John possessed, but the demonstration of the Spirit is not the same through us. Read 2 Cor. 12:12.

Please show me a scripture that teaches what you have placed in your post above. You say the Holy Spirit cleanses, as if He forgives our sins. The Bible does not teach that. Scripture is clear that only the blood of Christ cleanses us of sin. The Holy Spirit empowers the Christian to do what is right, IF we yeild to His leading (Rom. 8:9-17; Gal. 5:16-26).

I would encourage you to read more carefully Matt. 28:19-20. Disciples are sent forth (men) to make disciples. The disciples are to baptize those that are discipled (this is not Holy Spirit baptism; you have correctly stated that only Christ can baptize with the Holy Spirit); here human beings are baptizing human beings. After these disciples are baptized they are to be taught everything God has commanded. He had just commanded them to "Go, make disciples, baptizing them..."

 

[daverain]

.



Unfortunately along the way...

MANY FALSE TEACHINGS 'crept-in',

So...

Depending on who 'disciples' who,

in SOME way,


It will be 'the blind leading the blind'

(=being discipled by a man, and not a Man)




.

 

[Toms777]

Why did Paul thank God that he didn't baptize more people? He gives the answer in the same sentence:

This verse doesn't answer the question either way; it explains why Paul was leery of baptizing people himself.

Don't forget the rest of Paul's writings, for example:

1 Cor 1:16-17
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
NKJV

Note how Paul was not sent to baptize but to preach the gospel.

The gospel is the good news of salvation, and Paul differentiates between the gospel and baptism. He was sent to preach the gospel (salvation) but not to baptize.

Paul is very clear about his focus:

1 Cor 2:1-3
2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
NKJV

 

[Fat]

This would be funny if it weren't so sad. The first verse they teach a kid in sunday school and probably the only one politician's ever learn is John 3:16, the requirements of salvation, the new covenant. Who spoke these words? Did Christ mislead the world in John 3:16 so the verse could be easily remembered for Sunday School kids?

John the Baptist asked Christ to baptize him with water but Christ refused his request. In fact Christ never baptized with water, why?

In Luke 23:34 Christ asked the Father, "forgive them, because they do not know what they are doing." But in verse 43 "I assure you: Today you will be with Me in paradise." Why did he not asked the Father to forgive this man? Instead he made the promise to fulfill John 3:16 for the first time. If Christ baptized this man with the Holy Ghost upon or shortly after Christ death then it all stands true. But if not, well what is the new covenant? Some would have you believe that the new covenant is not clear, that Christ failed to give the full terms of the new covenant and his words were spoken haphazardly, unclear and misleading. Some say that it is too simple and failed to include the participation of the Church high-archy, unlike the old law that required the priest to participate. Some say where are the works, there must be more!

Acts 8:36-37*(King James Version)

*36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

*37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

He had no right to the ordinance of baptism, unless he had faith in Christ, and made a profession of it; nor would Philip administer it to him without it; from whence it appears, that faith in Christ, and a profession of it, are necessary prerequisites to baptism: and this faith should not be a mere historical and temporary faith, nor a feigned one, but a believing in Christ with the heart unto righteousness.

I say to all on this board that I accept John 3:16 as truth and without qualifications or revisions. I accept that Christ was the Son of God given to me by Gods Love and Grace. I accept the explanation of Christ death as a gift of salvation for my eternal life.

So as not to take John 3:16 out of contex:

1*There was a man from the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2*This man came to Him at night and said, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher, for no one could perform these signs You do unless God were with him." 3*Jesus replied, "I assure you: Unless someone is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4*"But how can anyone be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked Him. "Can he enter his mother's womb a second time and be born?" 5*Jesus answered, "I assure you: Unless someone is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6*Whatever is born of the flesh is flesh, and whatever is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7*Do not be amazed that I told you that you must be born again. 8*The wind blows where it pleases, and you hear its sound, but you don't know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." 9*"How can these things be?" asked Nicodemus. 10*"Are you a teacher of Israel and don't know these things?" Jesus replied. 11*"I assure you: We speak what We know and We testify to what We have seen, but you do not accept Our testimony. 12*If I have told you about things that happen on earth and you don't believe, how will you believe if I tell you about things of heaven? 13*No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven--the Son of Man. 14*Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15*so that everyone who believes in Him will have eternal life. 16*"For God loved the world in this way: He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. 17*For God did not send His Son into the world that He might judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18*Anyone who believes in Him is not judged, but anyone who does not believe is already judged, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19*"This, then, is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20*For everyone who practices wicked things hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed. 21*But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God."

There is another thing Christ must have left out in verse 6 (whatever is born of water is water) You think?

 

[Jim Woodell]

.

Unfortunately along the way...

MANY FALSE TEACHINGS 'crept-in',

So...

Depending on who 'disciples' who,

in SOME way,


It will be 'the blind leading the blind'

(=being discipled by a man, and not a Man)
.

And these false teachers did not accurately use scripture or in some cases used none at all, but you have quoted the Man (Matt. 15:14) who knew what He was talking about.

Acts 17:11, "Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all eagerness, examining the scriptures daily to see if these things were so."