If baptism is essential

[W Jay Schroeder]

You are referring to 11:16-17. Also consider verse 18: When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

The point is....... John baptized believers for repentance (Matt. 3:11), in the same way Peter was baptized by the Holy Spirit to lead the Gentiles to repentance (Acts 11:18).

There is a difference between the baptism of John and the baptism of Jesus Christ. We are commanded to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (consider Acts 19:1-5). Notice that the believers were baptized into the name of Jesus Christ (verse 5), and then later the Holy Spirit came upon them (verse 6).

Reverting back to Acts 10:47-48, the Holy Spirit fell upon the Gentiles to lead them to repentance, then Peter ordered them to be water baptized into the name of Jesus Christ. They were to be baptized because baptism: "is for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 2:38), "is to be buried into Christ's death" (Romans 6:3), "saves us"(1 Peter 3:21), etc... When harmonizing, the picture becomes much clearer.

your not harmonizing anything at all read Titus 3:4-8. Acts 19:1-5 hasnt a thing to do with Acts 11:18. You dont harmaonize verse that dont relate to each other. If you repent and are baptized, is this not what John the Baptist told people. This does not save. you believe and then you are baptized in the way Titus 3:4-8 states.

 

[julian the apostate]

dra,, i dont know if you noticed my denominational symbol,, i believe in baptismal regeneration

however, people are not going to hell if they disagree with you
(or even me,, but that may be a stretch)

 

[W Jay Schroeder]

Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit

Peter seperates them in this verse. “Repent and be baptized, water baptism. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, Spiritual baptism. He also makes the point, we don't recieve the Holy Spirit till we are Baptised with water.

But Jesus said that the Spirit gives birth to the Spirit so how can water baptism give you the Holy Spirit. It cant and doesnt. The Spirit of Christ gives you the Holy Spirit. All it states is that Jesus died for you and if you recieve this into your heart the Spirit of Christ will dwell in you. Jesus baptises with the Holy spirit and this baptism is what is mentioned in matthew 28 mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38. Its the only wat it can mean to go with John 3;16 Titus 3:4-8 All of Romans and Eph. 2:8, Read Galations 3:22-29. It speaks of the Law and how Faith ".... So that what was promised, being given THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who BELIEVE". What was promised, Salvation, how by FAITH through Christ to those who believe. Titus 3:4-8 explains this Titus 2:11-15 shows this and 1 cor. 12:12,(Christ baptises with the Holy spirit.) a realy good one is Rom. 10:8-14 Verse 8 explains this FAITH.

 

[MbiaJc]

But Jesus said that the Spirit gives birth to the Spirit so how can water baptism give you the Holy Spirit. It cant and doesnt. The Spirit of Christ gives you the Holy Spirit. All it states is that Jesus died for you and if you recieve this into your heart the Spirit of Christ will dwell in you. Jesus baptises with the Holy spirit and this baptism is what is mentioned in matthew 28 mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38. Its the only wat it can mean to go with John 3;16 Titus 3:4-8 All of Romans and Eph. 2:8, Read Galations 3:22-29. It speaks of the Law and how Faith ".... So that what was promised, being given THROUGH faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who BELIEVE". What was promised, Salvation, how by FAITH through Christ to those who believe. Titus 3:4-8 explains this Titus 2:11-15 shows this and 1 cor. 12:12,(Christ baptises with the Holy spirit.) a realy good one is Rom. 10:8-14 Verse 8 explains this FAITH.

how can water baptism give you the Holy--- You are confused sister Peter didn't say water baptism gives you the Holy Spirit. Read that verse again. God the Father is the one that sends the Holy Spirit.

At any rate you are arguing with Peter not me.

 

[W Jay Schroeder]

how can water baptism give you the Holy--- You are confused sister Peter didn't say water baptism gives you the Holy Spirit. Read that verse again. God the Father is the one that sends the Holy Spirit.

At any rate you are arguing with Peter not me.

I'm confused you said you do not recieve the spirit unless you are water baptised. But That God sends the Spirit. But only if you are Baptised. Though God said that Jesus baptises with the Holy Spirit. or should i say John the baptist said it. Peter said Repent and be baptized .... and you will recieve the Spirit. And if you say it is water baptism then how is it that God gives it. Of course it would have to be that way because you know that Water baptism cant. So if you insist that this passages means water baptism then you must say this, Other wise it Has to mean a spiritual baptism, which Jesus baptizes with and Titus 3:4-8 explains. But it does not say what you say it does. It means spiritual baptism, because like I said before, the Spirit gives birth to the Spirit. Matt. 28, Mark 16:16, and Acts 2:38, all are spiritual baptism, Just as Titus 3:4-8 states and Rom 6 explains and so on. Why do you not argue against the passages i gave you and tell me that i interpreted them wrong.

 

[- DRA -]

dra,, i dont know if you noticed my denominational symbol,, i believe in baptismal regeneration

however, people are not going to hell if they disagree with you
(or even me,, but that may be a stretch)

Your comment threw me off. It sounded like you were classifying baptism as a technicality that really didn't make any difference to God.

So then, are we agree that the baptism "in the name of the Lord" is "for the remission of sins" in Acts 2:38?

 

[- DRA -]

I'm confused you said you do not recieve the spirit unless you are water baptised. But That God sends the Spirit. But only if you are Baptised. Though God said that Jesus baptises with the Holy Spirit. or should i say John the baptist said it. Peter said Repent and be baptized .... and you will recieve the Spirit. And if you say it is water baptism then how is it that God gives it. Of course it would have to be that way because you know that Water baptism cant. So if you insist that this passages means water baptism then you must say this, Other wise it Has to mean a spiritual baptism, which Jesus baptizes with and Titus 3:4-8 explains. But it does not say what you say it does. It means spiritual baptism, because like I said before, the Spirit gives birth to the Spirit. Matt. 28, Mark 16:16, and Acts 2:38, all are spiritual baptism, Just as Titus 3:4-8 states and Rom 6 explains and so on. Why do you not argue against the passages i gave you and tell me that i interpreted them wrong.

By harmonizing Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:47-48 we understand that the baptism in the name of the Lord was in water and for the remission of sins. The baptism in the name of the Lord is not the same thing as the baptism of John. That is clear in Acts 18:24 - 19:5. There were those at Ephesus who had been baptized only in the baptism of John. When Paul discovered this, he had them baptized "in the name of the Lord."

Titus 3:5, John 3:3-5, and Romans 6:3-11 are all parallel passages that deal with one becoming born again -- not physically, but spiritually -- based on faith in the working of God (Col. 2:12).

We have a way to check our understanding of these passages. We can go to the book of Acts and study the conversions. Whatever was required to become a Christians is what it takes to be born again. If you will go to the first example and consider what was commanded to Jews that were convicted of crucifying the Christ (Acts 2:38), what they did in response to the commands they were given (Acts 2:41), and what the Lord's reaction was (Acts 2:47), then you should be on your way to understanding how one is born again. It involves dying to sin, being freed from it, and becoming alive to God (see Rom. 6:6-7,11).

 

[julian the apostate]

dra<<So then, are we agree that the baptism "in the name of the Lord" is "for the remission of sins" in Acts 2:38?

what else would it be? christianity does not use dead symbols, we use sacraments that actually convey grace

but they are not the only means of grace available to us, Christ is not limited to the sacraments

for instance, i think most adults experience conversion (aka experiential baptism) prior to being actually baptized

but we reduce baptism if we make it a contract with fine print and escape clauses and lawyerly insights instead of accepting the promise of God that is unconditionial and non-contractual without escape clause and fine print

it is a relationship not a contract
it is a promise

 

[Stinker]

dra<<So then, are we agree that the baptism "in the name of the Lord" is "for the remission of sins" in Acts 2:38?

what else would it be? christianity does not use dead symbols, we use sacraments that actually convey grace

but they are not the only means of grace available to us, Christ is not limited to the sacraments

for instance, i think most adults experience conversion (aka experiential baptism) prior to being actually baptized

but we reduce baptism if we make it a contract with fine print and escape clauses and lawyerly insights instead of accepting the promise of God that is unconditionial and non-contractual without escape clause and fine print

it is a relationship not a contract
it is a promise

Does this sound kind of legal?....................

"But as many as received Him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,...." (Jn.1:12)


Can you become what you already are?? Faith alone...without any further acts of obedience?? NOT.

 

[julian the apostate]

sorry stinkier
i dont understand

 

[Stinker]

but we reduce baptism if we make it a contract with fine print and escape clauses and lawyerly insights instead of accepting the promise of God that is unconditionial and non-contractual without escape clause and fine print

it is a relationship not a contract
it is a promise

Does this sound kind of legal?....................

"But as many as received Him, to them he gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,...." (Jn.1:12)


Can you become what you already are?? Faith alone...without any further acts of obedience?? NOT.


According to John 1:12, who has the right to become a child of God?

sorry stinkier
i dont understand

 

[julian the apostate]

well that clarifies everything

 

[- DRA -]

dra<<So then, are we agree that the baptism "in the name of the Lord" is "for the remission of sins" in Acts 2:38?

what else would it be? christianity does not use dead symbols, we use sacraments that actually convey grace

but they are not the only means of grace available to us, Christ is not limited to the sacraments

for instance, i think most adults experience conversion (aka experiential baptism) prior to being actually baptized

but we reduce baptism if we make it a contract with fine print and escape clauses and lawyerly insights instead of accepting the promise of God that is unconditionial and non-contractual without escape clause and fine print

it is a relationship not a contract
it is a promise

I, like you, have observed that many claim to have experienced conversion before baptism. However, this rationale simply doesn't harmonize with the examples of the conversions in the book of Acts, nor with passages such as Mark 16:16, Rom. 6:3-11, and 1 Pet. 3:20-21.

 

[FaithAlone]

Circumcism was the outward sign that a Isrealite man had intered into a covenant with God. Baptism is outward sign that we have intered into a covenant with God also. It should be one of our first act of odedience to Jesus Christ our Lord.

Amen I agree. It is an act of obedience after salvation.

The thief on the cross may have been under the Old Law but how do you know that he practiced the Old Law? If he was a thief there is a good chance that he did not. The Old Law was never for salvation but only a tutor to lead them to Christ. Salvation has always been by Faith. Hebrews 11. Romans 4.

So what in your opinion is the Holy Spirit and what is He for? when you receive Him do you keep Him or does He come and go. I'll post this under a new post so answer there please.

 

[ydouxist]

I, like you, have observed that many claim to have experienced conversion before baptism. However, this rationale simply doesn't harmonize with the examples of the conversions in the book of Acts, nor with passages such as Mark 16:16, Rom. 6:3-11, and 1 Pet. 3:20-21.

Speaking of Acts.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?


Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.


Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

 

[Ave Maria]

Requiring baptism is legalism plain and simple.

 

[Stinker]

Requiring baptism is legalism plain and simple.

"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God..." (Jn.1:12)

Legalism here? Well, you can't become what you already are!

 

[- DRA -]

Requiring baptism is legalism plain and simple.

If this is true, then Jesus was a legalist, as were the apostles and first-century Christians (see Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Acts 8:12,35-39, Acts 16:30-34, Rom. 6:3-11, and 1 Pet. 3:20-21).

Food for thought:
Was Jesus a legalist for requiring faith or belief (see John 8:24)? Assuming that we are agreed that He was not, how does the acceptance of the requirement that unites us with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection so that we die to sin, are freed from it, and become alive to God make one a legalist (see Rom. 6:3-11)?

 

[- DRA -]

Speaking of Acts.

Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.


Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?


Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.


Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Look at Acts 10:48. The baptism "in the name of the Lord" was commanded. What was the reason for this baptism given in Acts 2:38?

Yes, Jesus promised to give the baptism with the Holy Spirit. He did that in both Acts chapter 2 and 10. However, the baptism "in the name of the Lord" was for a totally different reason. What was that reason as stated in Mark 16:16? How about Acts 22:16?

 

[- DRA -]

Amen I agree. It is an act of obedience after salvation.

The thief on the cross may have been under the Old Law but how do you know that he practiced the Old Law? If he was a thief there is a good chance that he did not. The Old Law was never for salvation but only a tutor to lead them to Christ. Salvation has always been by Faith. Hebrews 11. Romans 4.

So what in your opinion is the Holy Spirit and what is He for? when you receive Him do you keep Him or does He come and go. I'll post this under a new post so answer there please.

Whether or not the thief on the cross kept the law of Moses or not is irrelevant. Jesus' testament or will didn't go into effect until after His death (Heb. 9:15-17). After His death, the terms to His will were read in Acts chapter 2. In Acts 2:38, we see that both repentance and baptism were required "for the remission of sins" (see this same phrase in Matt. 26:28).

Salvation is indeed by faith (for without it one cannot please God - Heb. 11:6), but NOT by faith alone (see James 2:14-26). What did those of Judea and Samaria do when they believed the preaching of Philip in Acts 8:12? Why? They had faith in the working of God (see Col. 2:12 and Rom. 6:3-11).