LDS If a universal apostasy really happened?

[Peter1000]

So "common sense" tells you, not the text. That was my point - you're importing these ideas from somewhere other than the author of the text.

If you are making that point, show me in the text that anyone besides Peter was given the 'keys'? We know from the text that Peter was given the 'keys', and the power to bind and loose. (Matthew 16) We also know from the text that the other apostles was given the power to bind and loose, but does not say that they were going to receive the 'keys'.

So you had to be using your common sense or some other source to come up with your conclusions, besides the text. The text is on my side. If you do not think so, show me by the text in Matthew 18 or any where else, that Jesus says, I give all of you the 'keys' to the kingdom of heaven.

My position: Peter was to receive the 'keys' to the KOH from Jesus in Matthew 16, with the power to bind and loose. Later in Matthew 18, the other apostles received the power to bind and loose, but no mention of the 'keys' to the KOH.

Matthew 18 is where you depart from the text by saying, I believe that at this time, the other apostles also received the 'keys' of the KOH. The text does not say that, so you cannot say that, unless you want to start interpreting or speculating ot importing your own beliefs about what the text is saying.

Again, your challenge is to show me from the text that anyone but Peter received the
'keys' to the KOH. Thank you.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

You accuse it becoming a power game after the Apostles but you have your history wrong. No doubt power and politics entered into the Church but that was only during the 3rd century and it was unavoidable given the domination of Christianity as a cultural force. Even then we still have good Church leaders whom were dedicated to the truth and strategies were come up with to deal with worldly influence, such as monasticism the LDS Church despises.

I don't believe for a second your organisation is free of corruption or men who don't want power and if you are going to accuse the historic Church in general of being subject tot he whims of men searching for power, give examples and demonstrate how each and every man was so corrupted that God could not have possibly used him to reveal the true Gospel.

Mind you, you don't have any other refrain. You have to blame men for failing the Church rather than God for failing to provide Apostles. When we contradict you that there were people who loved God, you admit as much and yet double down that the corruption in the Church was too immense. What is it? Were there people who actually loved God and were faithful, or was everyone corrupt? If the former existed there's no reason why they couldn't have been appointed Apostles. If the latter existed then you implicate your own LDS Church. God's promises of it being preserved are meaningless when he already let it fall once before.

after JS died many tried to grab power by starting their own LDS church.
Here in Michigan there was the King Strang group on Beaver Island.

How a Mormon king shaped a sleepy island in Lake Michigan

 

[Daniel Marsh]

If you are making that point, show me in the text that anyone besides Peter was given the 'keys'? We know from the text that Peter was given the 'keys', and the power to bind and loose. (Matthew 16) We also know from the text that the other apostles was given the power to bind and loose, but does not say that they were going to receive the 'keys'.

So you had to be using your common sense or some other source to come up with your conclusions, besides the text. The text is on my side. If you do not think so, show me by the text in Matthew 18 or any where else, that Jesus says, I give all of you the 'keys' to the kingdom of heaven.

My position: Peter was to receive the 'keys' to the KOH from Jesus in Matthew 16, with the power to bind and loose. Later in Matthew 18, the other apostles received the power to bind and loose, but no mention of the 'keys' to the KOH.

Matthew 18 is where you depart from the text by saying, I believe that at this time, the other apostles also received the 'keys' of the KOH. The text does not say that, so you cannot say that, unless you want to start interpreting or speculating ot importing your own beliefs about what the text is saying.

Again, your challenge is to show me from the text that anyone but Peter received the
'keys' to the KOH. Thank you.

That was asked and answered in Acts 1 and Acts 15 there were church councils where the group made the decisions, not just Peter.

 

[Peter1000]

after JS died many tried to grab power by starting their own LDS church.
Here in Michigan there was the King Strang group on Beaver Island.

How a Mormon king shaped a sleepy island in Lake Michigan

You are right, at the time of JS death many people grouped together to form small offshoots from the main group that went west with BY.

None of the offshoots, however, grew to be a rival with the true Church of Jesus Christ. So there is not an offshoot branch that has challenged the mother church as to who is the true church.

The Reorganized LDS (now known as the Community of Christ, did, for a while looked like it would rival the mother church, but it took a turn south, lost most of the Mormon flavor and turned into another Christian church.

The FLDS was a split off group that maintained that plural marriage should be continued. It did well for a time, but has lost most of its membership and are not doing well.

These are the only 2 split offs that amounted to anything. The Strangites imploded many years ago and were never a rival of the mother church.

You see, once they left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, their priesthood was not functional as the keys were taken from them and were in the hands of BY. Without priesthood authority, their churches floundered, and the Salt Lake church has been a dynamic, growing, world wide church now and is recognized as one of the fastest growing church still in the world that teaches Jesus Christ.

The split offs from our church will not be like the major schisms that happened to the original Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints. They were rather catastrophic in nature, where millions of people split off and started major rival churches, so much so that by 1200ad you could not know which of the churches was the true Church of Jesus Christ.

After the reformation the split offs increased dramatically and by today you have thousands of Christian churches, none of which will tell you that they are the only true church of Jesus Christ, except maybe the Catholic church, because they still maintain that Peter passed his keys to the second bishop of Rome after Peter, and that their bishops have held those keys since that time down to our age.

 

[Peter1000]

That was asked and answered in Acts 1 and Acts 15 there were church councils where the group made the decisions, not just Peter.

That does not answer the question. If the question was who made the decisions in the councils of the church in Acts 1 and Acts 15, then you would be right. you will notice that Peter did speak first, as the leader of the council, but others obviously had the right to speak and did. But this does not say, all that attended or spoke had the 'keys to the KOH'. Nothing like that.

But I asked where the text says that anyone but Peter received the 'keys of the KOH'? Acts 1 and Acts 15 does not answer that question.

 

[Peter1000]

That was asked and answered in Acts 1 and Acts 15 there were church councils where the group made the decisions, not just Peter.

Again, this does not answer the question, but I am suggesting that if Peter did not agree with what was taking place, he would have changed the outcome. Having the 'keys of the KOH' it is his responsibility to make sure the outcome was what Jesus would have done. Since the outcome was pressed forward, and messengers sent with epistles in hand, we can know that he agreed full-heartedly, and the church moved forward peacefully, and as one.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

You are right, at the time of JS death many people grouped together to form small offshoots from the main group that went west with BY.

None of the offshoots, however, grew to be a rival with the true Church of Jesus Christ. So there is not an offshoot branch that has challenged the mother church as to who is the true church.

The Reorganized LDS (now known as the Community of Christ, did, for a while looked like it would rival the mother church, but it took a turn south, lost most of the Mormon flavor and turned into another Christian church.

The FLDS was a split off group that maintained that plural marriage should be continued. It did well for a time, but has lost most of its membership and are not doing well.

These are the only 2 split offs that amounted to anything. The Strangites imploded many years ago and were never a rival of the mother church.

You see, once they left the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, their priesthood was not functional as the keys were taken from them and were in the hands of BY. Without priesthood authority, their churches floundered, and the Salt Lake church has been a dynamic, growing, world wide church now and is recognized as one of the fastest growing church still in the world that teaches Jesus Christ.

The split offs from our church will not be like the major schisms that happened to the original Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints. They were rather catastrophic in nature, where millions of people split off and started major rival churches, so much so that by 1200ad you could not know which of the churches was the true Church of Jesus Christ.

After the reformation the split offs increased dramatically and by today you have thousands of Christian churches, none of which will tell you that they are the only true church of Jesus Christ, except maybe the Catholic church, because they still maintain that Peter passed his keys to the second bishop of Rome after Peter, and that their bishops have held those keys since that time down to our age.

The world's 20 largest religions and their number of believers are:

Christianity (2.1 billion)
Islam (1.3 billion)
Nonreligious (Secular/Agnostic/Atheist) (1.1 billion)
Hinduism (900 million)
Chinese traditional religion (394 million)
Buddhism 376 million
Primal-indigenous (300 million)
African traditional and Diasporic (100 million)
Sikhism (23 million)
Juche (19 million)
Spiritism (15 million)
Judaism (14 million)
Bahai (7 million)
Jainism (4.2 million)
Shinto (4 million)
Cao Dai (4 million)
Zoroastrianism (2.6 million)
Tenrikyo (2 million)
Neo-Paganism (1 million)
Unitarian-Universalism (800,000)
What are the most widely practiced religions of the world?

2 Christianity – 2.42 billion
2.1 Catholic Church – 1.285 billion
2.2 Protestantism – 920 million
2.2.1 Anglicanism – 85 million
2.3 Eastern Orthodox Church – 270 million
2.4 Oriental Orthodoxy – 80 million
2.5 Non-trinitarian Restorationism – 35 million
2.6 Independent Catholicism – 18 million
2.7 Minor branches – 3 million
List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

A Portrait of Mormons in the U.S.

I can not find stats on minor LDS Sects.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

That does not answer the question. If the question was who made the decisions in the councils of the church in Acts 1 and Acts 15, then you would be right. you will notice that Peter did speak first, as the leader of the council, but others obviously had the right to speak and did. But this does not say, all that attended or spoke had the 'keys to the KOH'. Nothing like that.

But I asked where the text says that anyone but Peter received the 'keys of the KOH'? Acts 1 and Acts 15 does not answer that question.

It answers the question because it shows that all the Apostles exercise their use of the keys.

 

[Yekcidmij]

My position: Peter was to receive the 'keys' to the KOH from Jesus in Matthew 16, with the power to bind and loose. Later in Matthew 18, the other apostles received the power to bind and loose, but no mention of the 'keys' to the KOH.

Then your position is contradictory. In your view, Jesus only seems to give the apostles the capability to bind and loose. But in actuality he gives it only to Peter. I don't see how you can that Jesus gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose when they don't have the "keys" to do so. What you're saying is that he really didn't give it to them - contrary to what he says in Matt 18.

Your conclusion leads to an inconsistency because you try to separate keys from the activity of binding and loosing (which supposedly would require keys, and which you even seem to realize). And you do this because you have a prior commitment to interpreting this passage due to LDS particular doctrines.

For these reasons, your position is unpersuasive. The better view is that Jesus gave all of the apostles the authority to bind and loose, and this activity isn't to be understood as separate from the "keys" in Matt 16.

I think you would be in a better position admitting to a prior commitment to Joseph Smith as a Prophet and the LDS particular doctrines as authoritative for interpreting the New Testament, and then on this basis to interpret Matthew the way you do. I mean, your inconsistency between Matt 16 and 18 still wouldn't go away, but at least you would be able to provide some other justification.

Again, your challenge is to show me from the text that anyone but Peter received the
'keys' to the KOH. Thank you.

Right there in Matthew 18. You're welcome. My position seems to be pretty clear and well articulated at this point. So just constantly asserting your position without adequately addressing my position and my points is really insufficient.

 

[Peter1000]

The world's 20 largest religions and their number of believers are:

Christianity (2.1 billion)
Islam (1.3 billion)
Nonreligious (Secular/Agnostic/Atheist) (1.1 billion)
Hinduism (900 million)
Chinese traditional religion (394 million)
Buddhism 376 million
Primal-indigenous (300 million)
African traditional and Diasporic (100 million)
Sikhism (23 million)
Juche (19 million)
Spiritism (15 million)
Judaism (14 million)
Bahai (7 million)
Jainism (4.2 million)
Shinto (4 million)
Cao Dai (4 million)
Zoroastrianism (2.6 million)
Tenrikyo (2 million)
Neo-Paganism (1 million)
Unitarian-Universalism (800,000)
What are the most widely practiced religions of the world?

2 Christianity – 2.42 billion
2.1 Catholic Church – 1.285 billion
2.2 Protestantism – 920 million
2.2.1 Anglicanism – 85 million
2.3 Eastern Orthodox Church – 270 million
2.4 Oriental Orthodoxy – 80 million
2.5 Non-trinitarian Restorationism – 35 million
2.6 Independent Catholicism – 18 million
2.7 Minor branches – 3 million
List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

A Portrait of Mormons in the U.S.

I can not find stats on minor LDS Sects.

Did you google lds offshoots, or something like that?

 

[Peter1000]

Then your position is contradictory. In your view, Jesus only seems to give the apostles the capability to bind and loose. But in actuality he gives it only to Peter. I don't see how you can that Jesus gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose when they don't have the "keys" to do so. What you're saying is that he really didn't give it to them - contrary to what he says in Matt 18.

Your conclusion leads to an inconsistency because you try to separate keys from the activity of binding and loosing (which supposedly would require keys, and which you even seem to realize). And you do this because you have a prior commitment to interpreting this passage due to LDS particular doctrines.

For these reasons, your position is unpersuasive. The better view is that Jesus gave all of the apostles the authority to bind and loose, and this activity isn't to be understood as separate from the "keys" in Matt 16.

I think you would be in a better position admitting to a prior commitment to Joseph Smith as a Prophet and the LDS particular doctrines as authoritative for interpreting the New Testament, and then on this basis to interpret Matthew the way you do. I mean, your inconsistency between Matt 16 and 18 still wouldn't go away, but at least you would be able to provide some other justification.



Right there in Matthew 18. You're welcome. My position seems to be pretty clear and well articulated at this point. So just constantly asserting your position without adequately addressing my position and my points is really insufficient.

I will acknowledge your position, here it is:

You believe that Jesus gave the 'keys of the KOH' with the power to bind and loose to all of the apostles. Am I right?

 

[Peter1000]

It answers the question because it shows that all the Apostles exercise their use of the keys.

We cannot really know this from this council. That is because all of the apostles present agreed with each other and they moved forward.

If 2 apostles had disagreed and really got into an argument, we may have seen Peter take his leadership role and make the final decision. But we didn't in this incident. So the question is unanswered.

One of the first scenes in Acts after Jesus was ascended, was that Peter stood up in his position of head apostle and gave his day-of-Pentecost speech. Peter was also give the first revelation from Jesus to teach the Cornelius family, who were the first non-Jews to be members of the Church of Jesus Christ of First-century Saints.

So Peter was an important apostle of the apostles. The reason he was so important is that Jesus had given him the 'keys of the KOH'.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Then your position is contradictory. In your view, Jesus only seems to give the apostles the capability to bind and loose. But in actuality he gives it only to Peter. I don't see how you can that Jesus gave all the apostles the authority to bind and loose when they don't have the "keys" to do so. What you're saying is that he really didn't give it to them - contrary to what he says in Matt 18.

Your conclusion leads to an inconsistency because you try to separate keys from the activity of binding and loosing (which supposedly would require keys, and which you even seem to realize). And you do this because you have a prior commitment to interpreting this passage due to LDS particular doctrines.

For these reasons, your position is unpersuasive. The better view is that Jesus gave all of the apostles the authority to bind and loose, and this activity isn't to be understood as separate from the "keys" in Matt 16.

I think you would be in a better position admitting to a prior commitment to Joseph Smith as a Prophet and the LDS particular doctrines as authoritative for interpreting the New Testament, and then on this basis to interpret Matthew the way you do. I mean, your inconsistency between Matt 16 and 18 still wouldn't go away, but at least you would be able to provide some other justification.



Right there in Matthew 18. You're welcome. My position seems to be pretty clear and well articulated at this point. So just constantly asserting your position without adequately addressing my position and my points is really insufficient.

Matthew 18:18-20 21st Century King James Version (KJ21)
18 Verily I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven; and so whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.

19 “Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth concerning anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in Heaven.

Shall be bound in heaven (estai dedemena en ouranwi). Future passive periphrastic perfect indicative as in "shall be loosed" (estai lelumena). In Matthew 16:19 this same unusual form occurs. The binding and the loosing is there addressed to Peter, but it is here repeated for the church or for the disciples as the case may be.
Matthew 18:18 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

The context of Matthew 18:18 Jesus seems to be addressing all of the apostles as a collective group.


18:18 Ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν· ὅσα ἐὰν δήσητε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς
18:18 Most certainly I tell you, whatever things you bind on earth

"you" [humin] and "you bind" [dēsēte] here are both 2nd person plural

ἔσται δεδεμένα ἐν οὐρανῷ,
will have been bound in heaven,

καὶ ὅσα ἐὰν λύσητε ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς
and whatever things you release on earth

"you release" [lusēte] is 2nd person plural

ἔσται λελυμένα ἐν οὐρανῷ.
will have been released in heaven.

Here, Jesus is speaking to "the disciples" (18:1) more broadly.

20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.”
Is the Greek of "you" in Mathew 18 singular or plural and what does this say about who is granted authority?

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Did you google lds offshoots, or something like that?

I googled Later Day Saints Sects Population.

I just tried your suggestion with no luck.

lds offshoots populations - Google Search

Thanks Friend,
Daniel

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Acts 15 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
The Meeting at Jerusalem
15 Then some men came to Antioch from Judea and began teaching the non-Jewish believers: “You cannot be saved if you are not circumcised as Moses taught us.” 2 Paul and Barnabas were against this teaching and argued with these men about it. So the group decided to send Paul, Barnabas, and some others to Jerusalem to talk more about this with the apostles and elders.

3 The church helped them get ready to leave on their trip. The men went through the countries of Phoenicia and Samaria, where they told all about how the non-Jewish people had turned to the true God. This made all the believers very happy. 4 When the men arrived in Jerusalem, the apostles, the elders, and the whole church welcomed them. Paul, Barnabas, and the others told about all that God had done with them. 5 Some of the believers in Jerusalem had belonged to the Pharisees. They stood up and said, “The non-Jewish believers must be circumcised. We must tell them to obey the Law of Moses!”

6 Then the apostles and the elders gathered to study this problem. 7 After a long debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “My brothers, I am sure you remember what happened in the early days. God chose me from among you to tell the Good News to those who are not Jewish. It was from me that they heard the Good News and believed. 8 God knows everyone, even their thoughts, and he accepted these non-Jewish people. He showed this to us by giving them the Holy Spirit the same as he did to us. 9 To God, those people are not different from us. When they believed, God made their hearts pure. 10 So now, why are you putting a heavy burden[a] around the necks of the non-Jewish followers of Jesus? Are you trying to make God angry? We and our fathers were not able to carry that burden. 11 No, we believe that we and these people will be saved the same way—by the grace of the Lord Jesus.”

12 Then the whole group became quiet. They listened while Paul and Barnabas told about all the miraculous signs and wonders that God had done through them among the non-Jewish people. 13 When they finished speaking, James said, “My brothers, listen to me. 14 Simon Peter has told us how God showed his love for the non-Jewish people. For the first time, God accepted them and made them his people. 15 The words of the prophets agree with this too:

16 ‘I will return after this.
I will build David’s house again.
It has fallen down.
I will build again the parts of his house that have been pulled down.
I will make his house new.
17 Then the rest of the world will look for the Lord God—
all those of other nations who are my people too.
The Lord said this.
And he is the one who does all these things.’

18 ‘All this has been known from the beginning of time.’

19 “So I think we should not make things hard for those who have turned to God from among the non-Jewish people. 20 Instead, we should send a letter telling them only the things they should not do:

Don’t eat food that has been given to idols. This makes the food unclean.

Don’t be involved in sexual sin.

Don’t eat meat from animals that have been strangled or any meat that still has the blood in it.

21 They should not do any of these things, because there are still men in every city who teach the Law of Moses. The words of Moses have been read in the synagogue every Sabbath day for many years.”

The Letter to the Non-Jewish Believers
22 The apostles, the elders, and the whole church wanted to send some men with Paul and Barnabas to Antioch. The group decided to choose some of their own men. They chose Judas (also called Barsabbas) and Silas, men who were respected by the believers. 23 The group sent the letter with these men. The letter said:

From the apostles and elders, your brothers,

To all the non-Jewish brothers in the city of Antioch and in the countries of Syria and Cilicia.

Dear Brothers:

24 We have heard that some men have come to you from our group. What they said troubled and upset you. But we did not tell them to do this. 25 We have all agreed to choose some men and send them to you. They will be with our dear friends, Barnabas and Paul. 26 Barnabas and Paul have given their lives to serve our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 So we have sent Judas and Silas with them. They will tell you the same things. 28 We agree with the Holy Spirit that you should have no more burdens, except for these necessary things:

29 Don’t eat food that has been given to idols.

Don’t eat meat from animals that have been strangled or any meat that still has the blood in it.

Don’t be involved in sexual sin.

If you stay away from these, you will do well.

We say goodbye now.

30 So Paul, Barnabas, Judas, and Silas left Jerusalem and went to Antioch. There they gathered the group of believers together and gave them the letter. 31 When the believers read it, they were happy. The letter comforted them. 32 Judas and Silas, who were also prophets, said many things to encourage the believers and make them stronger in their faith. 33 After Judas and Silas stayed there for a while, they left. They received a blessing of peace from the believers. Then they went back to those who had sent them. 34 [c]

35 But Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch. They and many others taught the believers and told other people the Good News about the Lord.

Paul and Barnabas Separate
36 A few days later, Paul said to Barnabas, “We should go back to all the towns where we told people the message of the Lord. We should visit the believers to see how they are doing.”

37 Barnabas wanted to bring John Mark with them too. 38 But on their first trip John Mark did not continue with them in the work. He had left them at Pamphylia. So Paul did not think it was a good idea to take him this time. 39 Paul and Barnabas had a big argument about this. It was so bad that they separated and went different ways. Barnabas sailed to Cyprus and took Mark with him.

40 Paul chose Silas to go with him. The believers in Antioch put Paul into the Lord’s care and sent him out. 41 Paul and Silas went through the countries of Syria and Cilicia, helping the churches grow stronger.

There were disputing people, Christians there and they answered the problem as a group. Thus all of them were binding and Loosing.

Again, how do you unlock a lock without a key? I am not sure you addressed that question.

 

[Yekcidmij]

The context of Matthew 18:18 Jesus seems to be addressing all of the apostles as a collective group.

Yes. I think Peter1000 even concedes that much.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Yes. I think Peter1000 even concedes that much.

Thank You, I wonder how he is having a problem understanding at all the Apostles have the authority represented figuratively by the keys to bind and loose.

Matthew 16:15-19 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
15 “But you,” He asked them, “who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!”

17 And Jesus responded, “Simon son of Jonah, you are blessed because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the forces of Hades will not overpower it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth is already bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is already loosed in heaven.”

Matthew 18:15-20


Matthew 18:15-20 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Restoring a Brother
15 “If your brother sins against you, go and rebuke him in private. If he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 But if he won’t listen, take one or two more with you, so that by the testimony of two or three witnesses every fact may be established. 17 If he pays no attention to them, tell the church. But if he doesn’t pay attention even to the church, let him be like an unbeliever and a tax collector to you. 18 I assure you: Whatever you bind on earth is already bound[g] in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is already loosed[h] in heaven. 19 Again, I assure you: If two of you on earth agree about any matter that you pray for, it will be done for you[j] by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there among them.”

There has been research in Greek Grammar that shows that what has been bound or loosed was already done first in Heaven itself. This is consistent with the chain of authority. A person repents, the angels rejoice, members of the church hear the person's testimony and then admits them into the physical church on earth. Thus I think the keys are simply the Gospel itself.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you are making that point, show me in the text that anyone besides Peter was given the 'keys'? We know from the text that Peter was given the 'keys', and the power to bind and loose. (Matthew 16) We also know from the text that the other apostles was given the power to bind and loose, but does not say that they were going to receive the 'keys'.

So you had to be using your common sense or some other source to come up with your conclusions, besides the text. The text is on my side. If you do not think so, show me by the text in Matthew 18 or any where else, that Jesus says, I give all of you the 'keys' to the kingdom of heaven.

My position: Peter was to receive the 'keys' to the KOH from Jesus in Matthew 16, with the power to bind and loose. Later in Matthew 18, the other apostles received the power to bind and loose, but no mention of the 'keys' to the KOH.

Matthew 18 is where you depart from the text by saying, I believe that at this time, the other apostles also received the 'keys' of the KOH. The text does not say that, so you cannot say that, unless you want to start interpreting or speculating ot importing your own beliefs about what the text is saying.

Again, your challenge is to show me from the text that anyone but Peter received the
'keys' to the KOH. Thank you.

If the keys were given as the unique possession of Peter, then it would follow that only Peter's successors would retain those keys. There are two Petrine Sees directly founded and instituted by Peter, those of Antioch and Rome.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Yekcidmij]

If the keys were given as the unique possession of Peter, then it would follow that only Peter's successors would retain those keys. There are two Petrine Sees directly founded and instituted by Peter, those of Antioch and Rome.

-CryptoLutheran

A good point. Might be able to include Alexandira too. Wonder what he would make of the theory of the Pentarchy

Pentarchy - Wikipedia

.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

If the keys were given as the unique possession of Peter, then it would follow that only Peter's successors would retain those keys. There are two Petrine Sees directly founded and instituted by Peter, those of Antioch and Rome.

-CryptoLutheran

Hi Friend, based on if two or three pray in my name in Matthew 18:18 it is my opinion that the keys of salvation or Gospel will be passed on to anyone doing Church Discipline since that is the context of Matthew 18. Great Question.