LDS If a universal apostasy really happened?

ViaCrucis

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Like I say, the nearest description I can give for the pentarchy is "a game of thrones", all fighting for supremacy and money and power both church authority and secular authority.

Perhaps pick up a history book instead of using your imagination then.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Daniel Marsh

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You can say what you read from historians, but the fact is that according to the scriptures Jesus gave Peter and only Peter the keys to the kingdom of God. He was the leader and I have shown you many examples of his leadership, so let's again agree to disagree.

You are right again, about future councils that they were not done through divine fiat, but through a coming together, agreement, and consensus of the Church. And I will say that it is this consensus that broke the church into so many pieces that you cannot today recognize with piece is the true church from any of the other pieces.

When Jesus was alive do you think the councils he held with his apostles ended in a consensus or did the apostles look to Jesus to make the final decision. Jesus always had the last word. Do you think that was different when Jesus went to heaven. No.

The council was held, many gave their inputs and then a decision was made by the presidency, Peter being the leader of that presidency by virtue of holding the keys. But that decision was not made until they went to Jesus for a divine revelation to know he was OK with their decision. Jesus was the chief cornerston still, even from heaven.

You are ignoring Eph 2:20 which clearly says all the Apostles are the Rocks.
Acts 15 and the Councils clearly demonstrates that it is the full church that makes decisions, not a dictator.

Make a list of all your LDS doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Whom the Apostles taught. Yes, this is a challenge for a new thread which I will start. It is here: LDS - Make a list of all your LDS doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Wh
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Ephesians 2:20 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
20 You believers are like a building that God owns. That building was built on the foundation that the apostles and prophets prepared. Christ Jesus himself is the most important stone in that building.

https://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:1012174/FULLTEXT01.pdf

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Daniel Marsh

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God did not abandon them, they abandoned God. Too many scriptures of churches not listening to the apostles, in fact turning away from the apostles. Too many prophecies that the apostasy 0 was starting, even in the times of the apostles. Too much history in the church records of feuds, and wars, and evil leaders, and rebellious people to reject the idea of apostasy.

Like I say, the nearest description I can give for the pentarchy is "a game of thrones", all fighting for supremacy and money and power both church authority and secular authority. The leaders wanted the political power as well as the church power, and it lead to great upheavals and much wickedness, and certainly was not a model of the Church of Jesus Christ.

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Your church history is no different, so lets not waste our time going there.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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God did not abandon them, they abandoned God. Too many scriptures of churches not listening to the apostles, in fact turning away from the apostles. Too many prophecies that the apostasy 0 was starting, even in the times of the apostles. Too much history in the church records of feuds, and wars, and evil leaders, and rebellious people to reject the idea of apostasy.

Like I say, the nearest description I can give for the pentarchy is "a game of thrones", all fighting for supremacy and money and power both church authority and secular authority. The leaders wanted the political power as well as the church power, and it lead to great upheavals and much wickedness, and certainly was not a model of the Church of Jesus Christ.

In order for this to work you would have to suggest that every Patriarch or Pope within Pentarchy was utterly corrupt, cared nothing for the Gospel and had no knowledge of the scripture. This is unbelievable, given the writings we do have of certain Patriarchs and Popes. Also the knowledge we have of their lives. It's an overly simplistic view borne out of necessity, not actually looking at the lives of the men who lead the Church. Can you say, without reserve or qualification, that each of the Patriarchs and Popes were Godless men devoid of knowledge of the scripture? I don't think you can, if you are knowledgeable or honest.

Still. I ask, what should the Church have done? What should the faithful have done? God wasn't revealing anything to those whom were actually faithful and you have said elsewhere that the Holy Spirit was still with believers. This implies that there was legitimate faith yet God abandoned them to their error and the supposed corruption of every single Christian Bishop and Priest. It's not like they didn't read the bible. Christians have read the bible more times in history than there are Mormons. So you can't blame a lack of devotion to the scriptures.

The only reason there was an apostasy was due to God not supplying Prophets and Apostles. It was within his power to do so. There were good and faithful people, even good and faithful Patriarchs. Why couldn't God have used Martin Luther in the 15th century? Why couldn't have God used John Chrysostom in the 4th? Either he couldn't do it or was unwilling. You can't blame God's inaction on the Church when it is not within the Chuch's power to appoint Apostles. Yet you continue to do this.

I've repeated this point over and over and we only seem to be going in circles. Then when it gets to this part of the conversation there is nothing but silence from the LDS side because there is no alternative explanation. Face it, your God wanted the Apostasy to happen or he did not have the power to overcome human sinfulness. The second is an odd claim given how Mormons claim their own Church operates. It is still entirely possible, I suppose, that Mormons are somehow better people than the rest of us but i highly doubt that.
 
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Peter1000

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Perhaps pick up a history book instead of using your imagination then.

-CryptoLutheran
When was the last time you read a comprehensive history of the Christian church? After the apostles died it reads just like a game of thrones. Same kinds of intrigue. Try it.
 
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Peter1000

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Your church history is no different, so lets not waste our time going there.
Read a comprehensive history of the Christian church. After the apostles died, it reads like a game of thrones. The intrigues and power struggle are astonishingly similar. Try it.
 
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ViaCrucis

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When was the last time you read a comprehensive history of the Christian church? After the apostles died it reads just like a game of thrones. Same kinds of intrigue. Try it.

Church History in Plain Language by Dr. Bruce. Shelley
The Story of Christianity by Dr. Justo L. Gonzalez
The Orthodox Church by Metr. Kallistos Ware

Your summation of the history after the death of the apostles does not mesh with the history books.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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dzheremi

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Am I the only one who is bummed that actual Church history is not a "game of thrones"? I think I know what Peter is trying to say with that phrase, but given what little I've seen of the TV show of that name, I must say church history would probably be much more exciting to laypeople if it included more midgets, sword fights, and dragons. (Yes, yes, okay...there already is St. John the Short, and St. George of Lydda, and St. Mercurius Philopateer/Abu Seifein...fiiiine.)
 
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Peter1000

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At least you weren't hoping for the gratuitous sex and nudity as part of that Church history... :eek:
You can laugh all you want but the next time you read a comprehensive history of the Christian church, watch for the intrigue and excommunications and wars and tortures and murders and sex and power and greed and cruelties committed by the 5 major sees of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Notice how they council to overthrow and to control and to dominate and to be the highest. It is truly the game of thrones. You did know that each archbishop or Patriarch or Pope or archpope of the 5 major sees at one time excommunicated each other, so they did not have a great deal of love between them, finally to schism and fall away from each other in a big cloud of dust. So much for the real true Church of Jesus Christ.
 
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dzheremi

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At least you weren't hoping for the gratuitous sex and nudity as part of that Church history... :eek:

Well no...that's why I couldn't make it past the third episode...gratuitous is a good way to put it. At first I thought they might've used it as a hook to get people to watch enough of the show to get them hooked on it, but it had the opposite effect on me. I mean, we do have examples like St. Mary of Egypt, who was formerly what you might call a nymphomaniac, but that's the point: she was one; she obviously isn't one anymore.

The fact that we don't celebrate that stuff, but rather the internal transformation away from the lust-filled life, is another stark contrast between traditional Christianity and Mormonism, as Mormonism's carnal, sex-filled heaven has nothing to do with Christianity.
 
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dzheremi

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You can laugh all you want but the next time you read a comprehensive history of the Christian church, watch for the intrigue and excommunications and wars and tortures and murders and sex and power and greed and cruelties committed by the 5 major sees of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Notice how they council to overthrow and to control and to dominate and to be the highest. It is truly the game of thrones. You did know that each archbishop or Patriarch or Pope or archpope of the 5 major sees at one time excommunicated each other, so they did not have a great deal of love between them, finally to schism and fall away from each other in a big cloud of dust. So much for the real true Church of Jesus Christ.

Come on...how is this still your view of things after talking for so long with Christians of all stripes? My own Church basically 'lost' at one ecumenical council -- in that we were cast out from/left communion with the Greco-Roman/Western churches as a result of our stance towards the theology expressed in a document it declared as Orthodox -- and we still do not talk this way! I think you find whatever it is you're looking for, but that doesn't mean that you know what you're talking about by invoking the Pentarchy or whatever. If I taught you that word or concept, I'd like to formally apologize to this board and to Christianity itself more generally. I'm sorry. I thought it might help, but clearly it just created more problems. Lord have mercy.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing if it stays little and bound by later 'revelation'.
 
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Peter1000

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Come on...how is this still your view of things after talking for so long with Christians of all stripes? My own Church basically 'lost' at one ecumenical council -- in that we were cast out from/left communion with the Greco-Roman/Western churches as a result of our stance towards the theology expressed in a document it declared as Orthodox -- and we still do not talk this way! I think you find whatever it is you're looking for, but that doesn't mean that you know what you're talking about by invoking the Pentarchy or whatever. If I taught you that word or concept, I'd like to formally apologize to this board and to Christianity itself more generally. I'm sorry. I thought it might help, but clearly it just created more problems. Lord have mercy.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing if it stays little and bound by later 'revelation'.
Yes, thank you for the word 'Pentarchy', it bolsters my position mightily. Just kidding. :)
 
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BigDaddy4

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You can laugh all you want but the next time you read a comprehensive history of the Christian church, watch for the intrigue and excommunications and wars and tortures and murders and sex and power and greed and cruelties committed by the 5 major sees of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Notice how they council to overthrow and to control and to dominate and to be the highest. It is truly the game of thrones. You did know that each archbishop or Patriarch or Pope or archpope of the 5 major sees at one time excommunicated each other, so they did not have a great deal of love between them, finally to schism and fall away from each other in a big cloud of dust. So much for the real true Church of Jesus Christ.
And yet you still have not provided your source documents for your claims. So, I guess we can disregard as unfounded accusations?
 
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Daniel Marsh

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When will be the great apostasy???

2 Thessalonians 2:1-10 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

2 Brothers and sisters, we have something to say about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We want to talk to you about that time when we will meet together with him. 2 Don’t let yourselves be easily upset or worried if you hear that the day of the Lord has already come. Someone might say that this idea came from us—in something the Spirit told us, or in something we said, or in a letter we wrote. 3 Don’t be fooled by anything they might say. That day of the Lord will not come until the turning away from God happens. And that day will not come until the Man of Evil appears, the one who belongs to hell.[a] 4 He will stand against and put himself above everything that people worship or think is worthy of worship. He will even go into God’s Temple and sit there, claiming that he is God.

5 I told you before that all these things would happen. Remember? 6 And you know what is stopping that Man of Evil now. He is being stopped now so that he will appear at the right time. 7 The secret power of evil is already working in the world now. But there is one who is stopping that secret power of evil. And he will continue to stop it until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then that Man of Evil will appear. But the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath that comes from his mouth. The Lord will come in a way that everyone will see, and that will be the end of the Man of Evil.

9 When that Man of Evil comes, it will be the work of Satan. He will come with great power, and he will do all kinds of false miracles, signs, and wonders. 10 The Man of Evil will use every kind of evil to fool those who are lost. They are lost because they refused to love the truth and be saved.

2 Timothy 3:1-9 ESV
But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people

1 Timothy 4:1-3 ESV
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
 
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