If a Protestant Gives You a Bible

PeaceB

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Could you please explain to me what Catholics find objectionable about the King James Bible? We Orthodox generally use it, or a version of it, and reading it without footnotes isn't considered dangerous. The only thing we have issue with is that it uses the Masoretic text as a basis for the Old Testament translation, and even that isn't such a big deal.

As for other Bibles, the only time we ever have a problem, no matter who made it, is if the translation strays from literalness excessively. Yes, some terms are open to different translations, but if you find a consistent translation of a term, you will generally be okay no matter who made it; but if you have three dozen different ways of a translating a word, that can also be a problem.
I honestly don't know. I have a 1611 KJV on my shelf and I use it. I can only speak for myself, but I view it as a good enough translation. Perhaps the Catholic Church has not approved it for official use because apparently King James told the translators to make sure that the translation was consistent with the teachings of the Church of England, and we have the Douay-Rheims, which seems to be pretty similar in style.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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I honestly don't know. I have a 1611 KJV on my shelf and I use it. I can only speak for myself, but I view it as a good enough translation. Perhaps the Catholic Church has not approved it for official use because apparently King James told the translators to make sure that the translation was consistent with the teachings of the Church of England, and we have the Douay-Rheims, which seems to be pretty similar in style.
He never told them that. The translation, in the 1611 version (which you say you have), is in fact loaded with margin notes with differing translations for various words and passages. Accuracy was the main concern, I mean what other translation puts inserted words in italics (or bold, in the 1611 version)? It's pretty scrupulous.

The Bible has nothing to hide.
 
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bbbbbbb

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He never told them that. The translation, in the 1611 version (which you say you have), is in fact loaded with margin notes with differing translations for various words and passages. Accuracy was the main concern, I mean what other translation puts inserted words in italics (or bold, in the 1611 version)? It's pretty scrupulous.

The Bible has nothing to hide.

I agree. Just as a matter of fact, the New American Standard translation also uses italics for inserted words, following the example of the KJV translators.

The only translation of the Bible I would completely reject is the New World translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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I agree. Just as a matter of fact, the New American Standard translation also uses italics for inserted words, following the example of the KJV translators.

The only translation of the Bible I would completely reject is the New World translation of the Jehovah's Witnesses.
I'd completely reject any Bible which plays fast and loose with the translation to support an agenda, like the NRSV--or really, any fast and loose translation, like the "Message". The quality of a translation of the Bible is pretty simple: the more literal and consistent it is, the better, and the only transgression of this should be ensuring the language is coherent in English grammar.
 
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PeaceB

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He never told them that. The translation, in the 1611 version (which you say you have), is in fact loaded with margin notes with differing translations for various words and passages. Accuracy was the main concern, I mean what other translation puts inserted words in italics (or bold, in the 1611 version)? It's pretty scrupulous.

The Bible has nothing to hide.
Well, here is what Wikipedia says about the matter:

King James Version - Wikipedia

James gave the translators instructions intended to ensure that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its belief in an ordained clergy.[8]
But I certainly cannot prove that he said that, not being there at the time.

Other than that, I agree that the KJV is a good enough translation and that the Bible has nothing to hide.
 
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PeaceB

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I'd completely reject any Bible which plays fast and loose with the translation to support an agenda, like the NRSV--or really, any fast and loose translation, like the "Message". The quality of a translation of the Bible is pretty simple: the more literal and consistent it is, the better, and the only transgression of this should be ensuring the language is coherent in English grammar.
I think it depends on the purpose for which the translation is being used. If you are sitting down for a hard-core bible study, you would probably want one of the more literal translations. When I just want to have a quick "leisurely" read of some Scripture on my sofa one evening, I might go with one of the more "dynamic" translations that are just a lot easier to read. Or I can often use a NIV to get the point of Catholic teaching across to a non-Catholic, even though I feel that one of the Catholic-approved translations is more accurate. . .
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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Well, here is what Wikipedia says about the matter:

King James Version - Wikipedia

James gave the translators instructions intended to ensure that the new version would conform to the ecclesiology and reflect the episcopal structure of the Church of England and its belief in an ordained clergy.[8]
But I certainly cannot prove that he said that, not being there at the time.

Other than that, I agree that the KJV is a good enough translation and that the Bible has nothing to hide.
All he said is that "episkopos" should be translated as "bishop" when his input was asked on that. That's not really biased, "presbtyros" was still translated as "elder" ("hierus" being translated as "priest").
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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When I just want to have a quick "leisurely" read of some Scripture
What.

Scripture is not for reading in a "quick" or "leisurely" way. It's not for entertainment or relaxation, that's disrespectful to Scripture. Do you also eat popcorn with it??
 
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1stcenturylady

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What should a Roman Catholic do if a Protestant gives them a Bible?

I found one answer from a blog called Eponymousflower. This is a blog by traditionalist Catholics, deeply suspicious of post-Vatican II Popes, but still within the Roman Catholic Church.

The answer: Refuse the gift of a Protestant Bible. If it comes in the mail, or you don't unwrap it until you get home, burn it. Yes, throw it into a fire, or light a fire to burn this Protestant Bible.

Where does this bizarre attitude come from? The blog cites the Catechism of Pope Pius X, who reigned from 1903-1914, and was canonized as a saint by Pope Pius XII in 1954.

An excerpt from the Catechism of Pope Pius X under the heading The Ninth Article of the Creed and Communion of the Saints:

<< Q. What should a Christian do who has been given a Bible by a Protestant or by an agent of the Protestants?
A. A Christian to whom a Bible has been offered by a Protestant or an agent of the Protestants should reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church. If it was accepted by inadvertence, it must be burnt as soon as possible or handed in to the Parish Priest. >>

Note: "burnt as soon as possible." Why does Pius X take this position?

<< 33 Q. Why does the Church forbid Protestant Bibles?
A. The Church forbids Protestant Bibles because, either they have been altered and contain errors, or not having her approbation and footnotes explaining the obscure meanings, they may be harmful to the Faith. It is for that same reason that the Church even forbids translations of the Holy Scriptures already approved by her which have been reprinted without the footnotes approved by her. >>


In other words, the footnotes approved by the Vatican are more important than the text of the Bible, even if the translation is both accurate and approved. Even if there are no Protestant notes, it is still forbidden. It really sounds like Pius X is afraid to have Catholics read the text of the Bible.

The article where this occurs is written by Giuseppe Nardi. So far the blog might be on good ground if you respect popes more than you respect the Bible. There is one word of caution that might make sense even to a traditionalist Catholic. The Catechism of Pius X was only used in Rome and parts of Italy. It was never addressed to the whole Church or to all priests. Even Pius X wasn't foolish enough to send this Catechism to a country with lots of Protestants.

For myself, the lack of respect for Scripture here is appalling. I don't know whether to be more amazed that a Twentieth Century Pope said such a thing, that he was later elevated to sainthood, or that people are still quoting and following one of the most foolish things he ever said.


Link to Blog:
http://eponymousflower.blogspot.com/2015/06/pope-kisses-waldensian-bible-pope.htm

Link to Catechism of Pius X:
CATECHISM OF ST

I'm not appalled at this attitude as other Protestants might be. Personally, I want all of God's Word and why I like the New King James Version. It has more complete verses than many of the modern versions. Catholics have more books. If they believe they are canonical, why wouldn't they chose the most of God's word like I do. So I can relate.

Romans 8:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

1 John 5:7 (NKJV)
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

1 John 5:7 (NASB)
7 For there are three that testify:

See what I mean?
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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I'm not appalled at this attitude as other Protestants might be. Personally, I want all of God's Word and why I like the New King James Version. It has more complete verses than many of the modern versions. Catholics have more books. If they believe they are canonical, why wouldn't they chose the most of God's word like I do. So I can relate.

Romans 8:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

1 John 5:7 (NKJV)
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

1 John 5:7 (NASB)
7 For there are three that testify:

See what I mean?
The 1611 King James Bible actually has all the books of a Catholic Bible.

As for these later discrepancies, they are because the KJV uses a different text as a basis for translation, than many contemporary Bibles do. The KJV uses the Textus Receptus (which is actually closer to the text used by us Orthodox), whereas contemporary Bibles tend to use the Critical Text.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I'd completely reject any Bible which plays fast and loose with the translation to support an agenda, like the NRSV--or really, any fast and loose translation, like the "Message". The quality of a translation of the Bible is pretty simple: the more literal and consistent it is, the better, and the only transgression of this should be ensuring the language is coherent in English grammar.

I agree entirely. I don't have any paraphrases in my library. I find Young's and Darby to be helpful as they are quite literal. When I am in China teaching the Bible I have discovered many errors in the Chinese translation. Not helping matters at all is the fact that the New International Version is the only English translation commonly found in China. Chinese Christians are keen to learn the Bible despite these drawbacks.
 
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PeaceB

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All he said is that "episkopos" should be translated as "bishop" when his input was asked on that. That's not really biased, "presbtyros" was still translated as "elder" ("hierus" being translated as "priest").
OK. If you say so. I do not particularly care to debate it with you, to be honest.
 
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PeaceB

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What.

Scripture is not for reading in a "quick" or "leisurely" way. It's not for entertainment or relaxation, that's disrespectful to Scripture. Do you also eat popcorn with it??
Oh please. Get off of your high horse. There is no need to be that quick to judge. Did I say that I read it for entertainment or for relaxation? If I want to be entertained I will go see a movie. If I want to be relaxed I will go get a nice massage.

I will read Scripture however I choose to read it, whenever I choose to read it, at whatever speed I choose to read it, and I will use whatever translation that I please. I could care not care less about your opinion. Thank you.
 
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PeaceB

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Then you're irreverent
I could not care less about your personal opinions concerning whether the manner in which I read Scripture is sufficiently reverent. You know almost nothing about me. With all due respect, you can take your judgment and place it where the sun does not shine.
 
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Vicomte13

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Infallible statement from Vatican I


If anyone says that it is possible that at some time, given the advancement of knowledge, a sense may be assigned to the dogmas propounded by the Church which is different from that which the Church has understood and understands: let him be anathema.

That's nice. Are you a sedevacantist?

Are you in communion with Pope Francis and the Catholic Church.

Was Vatican II a valid and binding Council of the Church?

Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church validly issued by the Teaching Authority of the Church?

Are you asserting that what the Church says NOW differs from what was said before (it does), and that THEREFORE, because of Vatican I, that the current Church is anathema? That sure seems to be what you're saying.

In which case we're already in schism.
 
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Vicomte13

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1. Your beef is with the Church. I did not alter the text at all
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Of course it is. The problem is that the Church makes dogmatic and absolute statements. And then contradicts them with other dogmatic statements. And then claims that there is never any conflict.
This latter claim is self-evidently false, and it causes the whole souffle to fall, leaving one with a mess.

It makes the Church sound just like Protestants when their logic fails: a retreat to authority.

And the problem with the Church's claim to absolute and unquestioned authority is that the Church murdered too many people and raped too many boys over the years to be trusted with absolute and unquestioned authority. It has lost the claim to unquestioned authority, and has to demonstrate its bona fides. Would you unhesitatingly and unquestioningly trust the babysitting of your young boy to the priests in the rectory? Not if you're a responsible parent.

So you have indeed put your finger on just exactly the problem. The Church blew itself up by murdering and raping people. It does not any longer have unquestionable authority. Its authority is questionable, and its agents are suspect, as the fruit of their own actions.

That doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is all gone. It DOES mean that simple claims of infallible and unchanging doctrine, when they collide with obvious changes in doctrine, can't be settled by an appeal to authority, because both doctrines had authority - and also because the Church has lost absolute authority: it and its agents are not entirely trustworthy or creditable.

We are thrown back upon reason, and upon our reasonable levels of trust. Had the Church not misbehaved so terribly over the course of time, this would not be so. But the Church murdered and raped tens of thousands, and so it is so.

The Church used to say in the absolute what you said.
And now it says something different.
The Church has indeed said that nothing can be changed.
But is has indeed changed things.
To claim that it hasn't is to be dishonest: it very clearly has.
What, then?
Well, most people choose the doctrine they like best, or that seems most reasonable to them, in light of SOMETHING.

In my own case, I compare everything to things that God has manifestly done in the world, and to the specific recorded words of Jesus. Whatever corresponds to reality or to Jesus (or ideally both) is the right answer, as far as I am concerned.

Other Catholics parse things differently.
Appeals to the authority of the Church don't solve things, because I don't trust the Church enough to babysit my little boy unsupervised, and that distrust and fear has been earned by the behavior of the Church. So it's not simply a matter of saying that a Pope said thus and so in 1871. A closer look at what he said, and whether or not it makes sense is required. Otherwise one ends up with the doctrine of 1871, in conflict with the doctrine of 2017 on important points, and in conflict with one's own reason and good conscience.

Ultimately, to hold the Church together people have to accept a pretty significant degree of ambiguity, because that's what we've really got.
 
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4x4toy

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Of course it is. The problem is that the Church makes dogmatic and absolute statements. And then contradicts them with other dogmatic statements. And then claims that there is never any conflict.
This latter claim is self-evidently false, and it causes the whole souffle to fall, leaving one with a mess.

It makes the Church sound just like Protestants when their logic fails: a retreat to authority.

And the problem with the Church's claim to absolute and unquestioned authority is that the Church murdered too many people and raped too many boys over the years to be trusted with absolute and unquestioned authority. It has lost the claim to unquestioned authority, and has to demonstrate its bona fides. Would you unhesitatingly and unquestioningly trust the babysitting of your young boy to the priests in the rectory? Not if you're a responsible parent.

So you have indeed put your finger on just exactly the problem. The Church blew itself up by murdering and raping people. It does not any longer have unquestionable authority. Its authority is questionable, and its agents are suspect, as the fruit of their own actions.

That doesn't mean that the Holy Spirit is all gone. It DOES mean that simple claims of infallible and unchanging doctrine, when they collide with obvious changes in doctrine, can't be settled by an appeal to authority, because both doctrines had authority - and also because the Church has lost absolute authority: it and its agents are not entirely trustworthy or creditable.

We are thrown back upon reason, and upon our reasonable levels of trust. Had the Church not misbehaved so terribly over the course of time, this would not be so. But the Church murdered and raped tens of thousands, and so it is so.

The Church used to say in the absolute what you said.
And now it says something different.
The Church has indeed said that nothing can be changed.
But is has indeed changed things.
To claim that it hasn't is to be dishonest: it very clearly has.
What, then?
Well, most people choose the doctrine they like best, or that seems most reasonable to them, in light of SOMETHING.

In my own case, I compare everything to things that God has manifestly done in the world, and to the specific recorded words of Jesus. Whatever corresponds to reality or to Jesus (or ideally both) is the right answer, as far as I am concerned.

Other Catholics parse things differently.
Appeals to the authority of the Church don't solve things, because I don't trust the Church enough to babysit my little boy unsupervised, and that distrust and fear has been earned by the behavior of the Church. So it's not simply a matter of saying that a Pope said thus and so in 1871. A closer look at what he said, and whether or not it makes sense is required. Otherwise one ends up with the doctrine of 1871, in conflict with the doctrine of 2017 on important points, and in conflict with one's own reason and good conscience.

Ultimately, to hold the Church together people have to accept a pretty significant degree of ambiguity, because that's what we've really got.
My outlook is more like when a church body breaks out in revival , the Holy Spirit moves from repentance and humility and draws folks . When the revival begins to fizzle and people try to hold on with particulars the revival breaks out afresh in another body, then man begins to take credit and maybe add doctrines then another outbreak in another body .. If we do not hear what the Holy Spirit is saying to the church we get left behind and become stale until we do .. It is a self correcting process imo .. Seeking and waiting on the Lord
 
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concretecamper

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That's nice. Are you a sedevacantist?

Are you in communion with Pope Francis and the Catholic Church.

Was Vatican II a valid and binding Council of the Church?

Is the Catechism of the Catholic Church validly issued by the Teaching Authority of the Church?

Are you asserting that what the Church says NOW differs from what was said before (it does), and that THEREFORE, because of Vatican I, that the current Church is anathema? That sure seems to be what you're saying.

In which case we're already in schism.

1. Haha, to quote Vatican I is to be a sedevacanist?
2. Yes, I am in Communion with the Pope
3. Vatican II was indeed a valid council.
4. The CCC is valid.
5. I am saying your interpretation of what the CCC says and what you are promoting are both incorrect.
6. Vatican II did not define or change dogma. You MUST read VII and the CCC in light of Church Tradition.
 
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