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If a mutation can develop, a mutation can decay?

Discussion in 'Creation & Evolution' started by Gottservant, Feb 26, 2021.

  1. Because you can always turn more left

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  2. Because if you suddenly mutate right handedness, it will automatically work with left turns

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  3. Because if you just replace the steering wheel at random, eventually you'll get one with both turns

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  4. Because if you turn left enough, sometimes it will seem like you are turning right

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  5. Because everyone tempted with left, is tempted with right even more

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  6. Because every generation creates left and right, all over again (and so has to re-evolve)

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  7. These are all a confusion of small changes, with bigger consequences

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  1. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    Hi there!

    So I am just wondering where you stand on this: its basically a question aimed at whether the working component of Evolution ("mutation") is able to be polarized, or not? Like when you are in a car, you say "if I can turn left, I can turn right" - the whole premise of steering is not that you travel in one direction, just making changes in how wide or how far around the circle you go, but actually keeping your focus, and going. The thing is that the selection pressure here, is ubiquitous and needs to be addressed - selection pressures do not wait for the right moment; even an engine can rev or brake.

    If selection pressures do not wait for the right moment, there must be some sort of principle, that drives Evolution on. A planet of species that all choose the exact same adaptation are going to wipe themselves out, by consuming resources, each other and any leadership that could lead them out of such a predicament. For every one of us that buys a fossil fuel guzzling car, we are that much closer to polluting the only planet we have? It's a problem, right? Like how do we make sense of the selection pressures we even are bringing on ourselves? An Evolutionist will say "we always were going to discover fossil fuels! we always were going to make cars that pump out pollution!" but that's not fair! I don't want to persist with an old model car until something similar comes out, I want the next model to be far and above the selection pressure that pollution represents. Having the mentality that mutation puts selection pressure in focus, doesn't make sense, if the steering is locked in to 'turning left' - wouldn't you want to unlock the steering, first?

    The point of all this, is that there is a divine order, which things are created in and an obstacle at one level, has many solutions above and below. How is it possible, that Creation not proceed by accident? Because adaptations do not happen in a vacuum - the adaptation that creates left and right handed steering, happens because the same design can be used to define each alternative. A car with a missing wheel, needs to use the spare; a car, in the rain, needs some of the power of the car, to move its window wipers. Each step in the car's Evolution, is advanced by carefully calculated adjustments to the overall design. If a lock on the car door doesn't work, you don't through out the door, you throw out the lock!

    So we come to the premise of the mutation, and we ask "what mutation as a rule, doesn't simply spread?" and "how is spreading simply good??" The answer is that you can do more than make left hand turns, hoping one of them comes to be right hand turning, and you can also determine - from the design - whether or not the steering wheel needs to be replaced. If the car used to be able to steer right, but now does not: you can change the steering wheel. The mutation that spreads beyond its usefulness, can be retracted. The cancer that would have developed from a mutation, can be made to decay! Can you evolve, while in a "state of decay"? Evidently you don't; evidently the design you had already, prior to any changes, is far more important, even across generations, given that you need to know how to proceed without a "state of decay" taking over!

    So mutations can go back and forth, we've established that? We understand that the body is a design in flux, for which things can add or subtract strength, difference, precision? The car that can turn left and right, eclipses those that need to spend the whole time perfecting a single turn. This is called a micro-leap, a change in design functionality that does not undo the development of the species' design - but rather encourages parallel adaptations to function together, until the greater flourishing of the creature becomes the heart's cry of a generation, for adaptations like that, in the generations to come. That is true Evolution, not adaptation for the moment, but for the lifespan of each successive generation. This too has a name, but I reserve the place of the Holy Spirit, to unite both it and micro-leaps.

    The point being, that successive micro-leaps, have nothing to do with the level above by which they are incorporated into successive generations. A micro-leap may benefit one generation or many, but never all - in principle - since the premise on which all of them are made is "rest". The car that has the airbag, still has the seatbelt - it's possible for many mutations to be tried and tested, without discarding the adaptations which consistently appear to be invoked by them; as long as you are not forced to continue making left turns, the initial attempt to turn a little left, can be moderated by successful adaptation of the right hand turn and then a variation thereof, for both left and right. If all you do is switch at random to developing right hand turns, the association with the left, will be lost! There is no selection pressure, that tells the whole story - at some point you have got to go with your gut and be humble, not proud, of how far you have come.

    I get that you don't want to be told to make your "Evolution" 'work', "or make way for something else, besides 'Evolution'" but I have set out as simply as seemed to make sense to me, that injudicious response to "Evolution: the theory" will not save you, in the way you think it does. You have to accept that at times, the greater good of the whole, is a better bet than hammering away at an ever more fragile, pre-extant shot at survival that doesn't keep it's bearings. You were there, in the beginning, you remember how hard it was to keep going while God shaped your "clay" - right? That's what I am getting at: there is a master-design that unites all other designs; a master-design that is stronger maintaining the path it walked in the beginning, than swerving to accomodate more and more dissipation - as if the right level of dissipation can only ever be good?

    The right level of dissipation, is something you can commit to the Holy Spirit, but if you will not hear spiritual advice, what hope is there for you and your theory? I put it to you that you have not yet reckoned with God as to what "Evolution" you have got and what relationship to the "Master Design" it has - but if you will pray to God, to uphold His Spirit in you, your accountability to Him, will deliver both you and your design!

    Your thoughts?
     
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  2. DaisyDay

    DaisyDay blind squirrel

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    Cars don't reproduce themselves.
     
  3. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    God's plan for one Atom:
    [​IMG]
     
  4. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    Are you saying "God doesn't create cars"? Or "I don't like cars that are similar to other cars"?
     
  5. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

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    Mutation is not a choice.
    Evolution is not a possession.
    Adaptation is not a decision.
    Cars don't breed so they can't evolve.

    Your statements are false.

    You should stop posting about evolution unless you are willing to learn what it says. People have informed you multiple times.

    You need to try to focus on your faith and your theology, because evolution isn't what you think it is and it's clearly distracting you from thinking about what you truly care about.



    They aren't saying either of those things.

    Evolution is a process that happens to things that reproduce over generations. Cars do not reproduce or have generations like life forms, so they can't evolve.
     
  6. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    Yes but can you understand that in order for a computer to evolve a neural network that correctly interprets imagery, it needs to be shown thousands of examples of the type of image in question - before it has the strength, to even poorly approximate what it is that is being asked?

    The computer does not see a handful of images and come up with a linear progression from to the other, that is something only the human imagination can do?

    The power of your argument is that there is a standard of Evolution, that I would have, if I believed it, but then if Evolution were true, wouldn't I have to evolve it, for it to mean what you assume it does?

    Your head is in the sand? All you can see is the "Evolution" you last imagined, before you ended up with your head a foot in the ground...

    I do not possess the problem of context, my design is the same whether I thought it a moment ago, or nearly a lifetime ago: the problem with belief in design, is that you need to defend it from people that want to change it, when if you did, you would get nothing either way.

    If you want to put your head in the sand, for the sake of exaggerating "Evolution" further (while it is still in your mind), go ahead, but why goad me with something that is in your imagination, when you have no hope of helping anyone else, the more you keep it that way?

    Am I supposed to be "generous" because you "believe in Evolution"? That's a problem.
     
  7. Warden_of_the_Storm

    Warden_of_the_Storm Well-Known Member

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    Mutations aren't comparable to a car changing direction.
     
  8. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    Up and down the genetic double-helix, not ring a bell?
     
  9. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

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    Neural nets and self re-writing code operates on principles based on biological evolution, but it isn't exactly the same thing.

    The repeated images create the environment for the software to find patterns in.



    Here's where you get back to nonsense.

    Evolution is not relevant to belief and individuals do not posses their evolution or an evolution.

    An individual does not evolve in the biological sense.

    This isn't making sense.

    The Theory of Evolution is an evidence based scientific theory to explain the natural process of evolution.

    It isn't a faith and it is not relevant to beliefs I may or may not have.

    If you were intelligently designed then your body would be as fixed as if you evolved... both are irrelevant to your choices and beliefs.


    Please point out what you think I'm exaggerating or merely imagining. If you do, please point out direct quotes... don't just make up stories about my thoughts. If you have questions I'll answer them.

    No, I expect you to behave in a minimum of politeness by attempting to listen to others when you talk to them, and attempt to understand their answers when you receive them.
     
  10. Warden_of_the_Storm

    Warden_of_the_Storm Well-Known Member

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    That's not comparable. A car changes direction because the person driving the car, operating the machine, turns a wheel that turns an axle that changes the direction of the wheels.

    Genetic mutation is a very different thing, requiring multiplication of genes, the necessity of reproduction and the continuation of the animal with the gene. Even if a mutation occurs in an animal, there is no guarantee that the mutation will take hold. It's much more trial and error than turning a car's steering wheel.
     
  11. Frank Robert

    Frank Robert Active Member

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    At any one time there are multiple mutations ranging from deleterious to neutral to beneficial. Beneficial mutations will be selected and some neutral or nearly neutral may bypass selection, deleterious ones will not be selected.

    I may be wrong but you appear to be asking what if two beneficial mutations are competing for selection. Then selection will be chance and both mutations will remain in the population. Genes for hair color come to mind.
     
  12. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Evolution is hell-bent on belittling everyone and hammering people into submission as a speck in the Cosmos. That just proves it's source is a perversion of reality. But that facts remain after the perversion is identified. It's doesn't mean a species doesn't change. It just means that promoting the religion of "randomness" is harmful to society.
     
  13. Warden_of_the_Storm

    Warden_of_the_Storm Well-Known Member

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    Evolution isn't 'hell bent' on anything. Evolution is just a biological response to environmental change and pressures. Species change and adapt to changes in their environment, it's basic science.
    And it's certainly not a 'religion of randomness'.
     
  14. DaisyDay

    DaisyDay blind squirrel

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    No, clearly I am saying what I said: cars don’t reproduce themselves, therefore biological evolution cannot affect their development.
     
  15. Shemjaza

    Shemjaza Regular Member Supporter

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    False.

    It's just an explanation for the evidence.

    Can you point out any of these supposed harms to society that aren't more common in less scientifically literate cultures?
     
  16. driewerf

    driewerf a day at the Zoo

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    Evolution is equally hell bent on doing the things that you wrote, as
    • the sun is hell bent making plants grow
    • as the Moon is hell bent on causing tides
    • as the rain is hell bent on making people we
    So evolution isn't hell bent on anything.
    Oh I forgot, the post I quote is written by someone who claimed:
     
  17. Bungle_Bear

    Bungle_Bear Whoot!

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    You creationists are an inconsistent, confused bunch.

    If you want to be taken seriously you need to pick an argument and stick to it, not flip flop around goading and trolling.
     
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  18. Frank Robert

    Frank Robert Active Member

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    Evolution is not random, mutation is random but natural selection itself is not random at all. See:
    Misconceptions about natural selection

    [​IMG]
     
  19. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    A There is no such thing as random.
    B No, mutations are not random, they are both designed and directed by the environment.
    C See A
     
  20. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    That's not my problem. So sorry.
     
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