idk if this belongs here or what? But i have to be getting this all wrong...

[Harley.]

Can you not see that Isaiah 65 talks about both the Millennium and Eternity?
Isaiah himself says that his Prophesies are a little here, a little there. Isaish 28:13

Obviously the beating of swords into ploughs, is Millennial, as is births and death. None of that will be in the Eternal state. Revelation 21 to 22.

Exactly. For example the parts about people not dying before 100 is about the millennium. The part where it talks about Gods elect long enjoying the works of their hands, id say thats about eternity

 

[Jamdoc]

Can you not see that Isaiah 65 talks about both the Millennium and Eternity?
Isaiah himself says that his Prophesies are a little here, a little there. Isaish 28:13

Obviously the beating of swords into ploughs, is Millennial, as is births and death. None of that will be in the Eternal state. Revelation 21 to 22.

Isaiah 65 isn't saying there will be deaths, it's just a way of saying there won't be death, but it appears there will be births.

 

[keras]

Isaiah 65 isn't saying there will be deaths, it's just a way of saying there won't be death, but it appears there will be births.

Isaiah 65:20 No child will die in infancy.....he who dies at 100, is just a youth.......
There WILL be deaths, but people will live much longer, as they did in antediluvian times.

Your wrong comments show up your biased and erroneous beliefs.

 

[Jamdoc]

Isaiah 65:20 No child will die in infancy.....he who dies at 100, is just a youth.......
There WILL be deaths, but people will live much longer, as they did in antediluvian times.

Your wrong comments show up your biased and erroneous beliefs.

I'm going by what it says not by what I've been taught it is, which I've been taught it's MK, but it says New Heavens and New Earth.

 

[keras]

I'm going by what it says not by what I've been taught it is, which I've been taught it's MK, but it says New Heavens and New Earth.

Isaiah 65:17 refers to the new heavens and earth, as proof of the final Fullment. It does not say that will happen before the Millennium, as described in Isaiah 65:18-25
Your belief creates a Biblical anomaly. Death will be no more in Eternity, as per Revelation 21 to 22.

 

[Jamdoc]

Isaiah 65:17 refers to the new heavens and earth, as proof of the final Fullment. It does not say that will happen before the Millennium, as described in Isaiah 65:18-25
Your belief creates a Biblical anomaly. Death will be no more in Eternity, as per Revelation 21 to 22.

I agree, death won't be anymore, I don't think that it's saying anyone living on the new earth dies, the accursed die the second death, is what I think it's referring to.

 

[Lulav]

A Long time ago I got to thinking about 'heaven' and what it would be like. Revelation is my favorite book in the bible and only second to Genesis. But from the same who wrote down the Revelation of the Messiah in his gospel we read this.

John 14:1“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”​

That is Jewish wedding speak. His disciples would have perfectly understood that.

I'm sure you've heard of the 'Marriage of the Lamb' the 'bride who clothes herself in white linen'. But do you understand how a Jewish marriage worked back then?

The man choose his bride, went to her father for permission to be 'espoused' to her. He gave the father gifts and he gave the bride-to-be gifts. Then he went away.

Where? Back to his Father's house

To do what? Prepare a place for them to live forever with each other.

He would go back to his Father's house and there would build upon it a place for him and his wife to live.
This could take some time to do and the espoused bride needed to be ready at all times for she did not know when her bridegroom would come for her.
----------------Think about the parable of the 10 bridesmaids-------
Now when the marriage home had been built and furnished then the groom would round up his groomsmen and then would go out at midnight to capture the bride and bring her back to her new home.
There would be much dancing and celebrating on the way.
Once they arrived at the Father's house there would commence the Wedding Supper of the Groom (lamb)
After which they would go and live in that home he prepared for them.

Now as to what Messiah said to his disciples,
'In My Father’s house are many mansions'

I looked at that as a giant building like something you would see in Dubai which contained many, many rooms or apartment like dwellings. Not for all to be in one room together, but each of us, as we are created differently, have our own 'space' and in there would be prepared for us things only special to us, as individuals. There we could meet with the humans we loved in life, but also to meet with our Savior , Our GOD for 'one on one' time.

This would be like a child spending special time with their Father. Having all his attention, speaking what was on their minds, asking numerous questions (I can't wait for that part, I have so many questions and He is so awesome that if it could be measured would take longer than any time all put together!)
This dwelling would be prepared with things only we liked, things that had meaning only to us.
This is how special our Creator thinks of us.

I think @Ggz is stuck on what is happening in heaven now and not on who is doing it.
In Isaiah we read of Isaiah's meeting with the Creator of the Universe.

1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.​

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.​

They were created to do this worship

Maybe this part in Revelation has you confused?
Before you read it, remember it is about one group of people.

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:​

​

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,​

Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”​

​

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”​

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”​

​

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

​

15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”​

These are those from the Great Tribulation, not believers past or present. They are especially grateful for surviving it and in their gratefulness all they want to do is worship the King.

I hope that sets your heart at ease.

 

[Harley.]

A Long time ago I got to thinking about 'heaven' and what it would be like. Revelation is my favorite book in the bible and only second to Genesis. But from the same who wrote down the Revelation of the Messiah in his gospel we read this.

John 14:1“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”​

That is Jewish wedding speak. His disciples would have perfectly understood that.

I'm sure you've heard of the 'Marriage of the Lamb' the 'bride who clothes herself in white linen'. But do you understand how a Jewish marriage worked back then?

The man choose his bride, went to her father for permission to be 'espoused' to her. He gave the father gifts and he gave the bride-to-be gifts. Then he went away.

Where? Back to his Father's house

To do what? Prepare a place for them to live forever with each other.

He would go back to his Father's house and there would build upon it a place for him and his wife to live.
This could take some time to do and the espoused bride needed to be ready at all times for she did not know when her bridegroom would come for her.
----------------Think about the parable of the 10 bridesmaids-------
Now when the marriage home had been built and furnished then the groom would round up his groomsmen and then would go out at midnight to capture the bride and bring her back to her new home.
There would be much dancing and celebrating on the way.
Once they arrived at the Father's house there would commence the Wedding Supper of the Groom (lamb)
After which they would go and live in that home he prepared for them.

Now as to what Messiah said to his disciples,
'In My Father’s house are many mansions'

I looked at that as a giant building like something you would see in Dubai which contained many, many rooms or apartment like dwellings. Not for all to be in one room together, but each of us, as we are created differently, have our own 'space' and in there would be prepared for us things only special to us, as individuals. There we could meet with the humans we loved in life, but also to meet with our Savior , Our GOD for 'one on one' time.

This would be like a child spending special time with their Father. Having all his attention, speaking what was on their minds, asking numerous questions (I can't wait for that part, I have so many questions and He is so awesome that if it could be measured would take longer than any time all put together!)
This dwelling would be prepared with things only we liked, things that had meaning only to us.
This is how special our Creator thinks of us.

I think @Ggz is stuck on what is happening in heaven now and not on who is doing it.
In Isaiah we read of Isaiah's meeting with the Creator of the Universe.

1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. 2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.​

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.​

They were created to do this worship

Maybe this part in Revelation has you confused?
Before you read it, remember it is about one group of people.

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:​

​

“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,​

Be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”​

​

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”​

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”​

​

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.​

​

15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”​

These are those from the Great Tribulation, not believers past or present. They are especially grateful for surviving it and in their gratefulness all they want to do is worship the King.

I hope that sets your heart at ease.

I still dont understand, what If I live through the Great trib? Then im part of that group, I just dont understand this tbh.

 

[Jamdoc]

I still dont understand, what If I live through the Great trib? Then im part of that group, I just dont understand this tbh.

well, pretrib will do this.
They will separate out themselves from "those other believers" and create second class citizens of heaven.
They have to do this because as you seem to note, the great trib involves persecution of the saints. so there have to be saints during the great trib.

They just want it to be "those other people' and not them.
so they fabricate a separate group to suffer instead.

 

[Jamdoc]

I dunno if I'd say anyone should say they're "happy" to go through with it, it is suffering after all. But God has ordained it happen for some good, possibly because persecution actually grows the church.

as for us, we were not designed to be a choir, at least not exclusively. We were designed to bear God's image, and have dominion on the Earth, and be His agents ministering to His creation.

The fall made it so that Angels became His ministers instead for a time, but they were designed to be that choir, not us.

 

[Lulav]

Delight yourself in the Lord,
and he will give you the desires of your heart. Psalms

He knows you, probably even better than you know yourself, do you not think he wants you to be happy in heaven with him?

Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.

 

[Lulav]

I still dont understand, what If I live through the Great trib? Then im part of that group, I just dont understand this tbh.

Here's another verse to meditate on.

1 John 2 15 Do not love the world or the things in the world.
If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world—the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride of life
—is not from the Father but is from the world.
17 And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever.

 

[Harley.]

I dunno if I'd say anyone should say they're "happy" to go through with it, it is suffering after all. But God has ordained it happen for some good, possibly because persecution actually grows the church.

as for us, we were not designed to be a choir, at least not exclusively. We were designed to bear God's image, and have dominion on the Earth, and be His agents ministering to His creation.

The fall made it so that Angels became His ministers instead for a time, but they were designed to be that choir, not us.

By happy I mean im prepared to go through it for God. Not that I want to, but if it comes to that, so be it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

So, Idk where to start this. But I have a confession to make, I dread heaven, the new earth, whatever. Now before you attack me, let me explain.

I love Jesus. I love God. I am not an atheist trying to knock the faith. I have had experiences that I can only attribute to God, so I know hes real. However, I still dread heaven.

Ive been taught by multiple people that all we do in heaven is have one big old sing along around the throne. Bowing down for eternity. And I thought "nah theres no way thats right. That the INFINITE God is making heaven less diverse then present life". So I approached the scriptures, I studied, and studied, I looked at different meanings. And all I see is singing, singing and more singing.

I have no problem bowing down to God, in fact I look forward to it. But like all things, you want to do it only so much at a time. I, thanks to being made in Gods image, love to create. I write music, I like exploring, I like building. And I like seeing my creations being enjoyed, just like God does. Again, we are made in his image, so we have alot of the same characteristics. However, I always hoped to be able to do this on the new earth as well. Go exploring? Write music? Explore different cities that popped up around the earth? But from what I can see...its just singing...? Perpetual worship.

Just executing one command again and again and again!

Why? How is this supposed to excite me? All it does is make life purposeless. Why would I develop skills in this life if im not even going to be able to use them in the next? Whats the point of ANYTHING then?!!

I know this seems blasphemous. It probably is. But Ive kept it inside for way too long and I need to get it off my chest. Its not like God doesnt already know I feel this way...

I've encountered the idea that the Age to Come will be nothing but literally bowing down for eternity, but I don't think that makes sense.

According to the Prophet Isaiah, in the Age to Come, there will be a lot of living to be done:

"For behold, I create new heavens
and a new earth,
and the former things shall not be remembered
or come into mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever
in that which I create;
for behold, I create Jerusalem to be a joy,
and her people to be a gladness.
I will rejoice in Jerusalem
and be glad in my people;
no more shall be heard in it the sound of weeping
and the cry of distress.
No more shall there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not fill out his days,
for the young man shall die a hundred years old,
and the sinner a hundred years old shall be accursed.
They shall build houses and inhabit them;
they shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
They shall not build and another inhabit;
they shall not plant and another eat;
for like the days of a tree shall the days of my people be,
and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
They shall not labor in vain
or bear children for calamity,
for they shall be the offspring of the blessed of the Lord,
and their descendants with them.
Before they call I will answer;
while they are yet speaking I will hear.
The wolf and the lamb shall graze together;
the lion shall eat straw like the ox,
and dust shall be the serpent's food.
They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord." - Isaiah 65:17-25

People are building homes, they have vineyards, there are animals, there are children, etc. That sounds like a lot of living to me.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

keras, if it were the millennial kingdom, then there wouldn't be children by any of the redeemed either.

by most premillennial's interpretation they'll have all been resurrected, and so, not having children by that understanding,
and by your interpretation, they're still dead and not resurrected, only the martyrs will have been resurrected, but in either case, only unbelievers who survived armageddon will have children according to both of your interpretations.

I mean in your interpretation we just all soul sleep during the millennium I guess, so we just miss out on it entirely.

However what does Isaiah 65 say?

23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them.

the seed of the blessed of the Lord are unbelievers?

Now how both this and Matthew 22:30 can be true about eternity is a mystery, but to reconcile it as millennial kingdom unbelievers doesn't fit.

 

[keras]

by most premillennial's interpretation they'll have all been resurrected, and so, not having children by that understanding,
and by your interpretation, they're still dead and not resurrected, only the martyrs will have been resurrected, but in either case, only unbelievers who survived armageddon will have children according to both of your interpretations.

Most pre-Millennium believers are wrong.
There is no general resurrection when Jesus Returns; ONLY the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4 And they are not given immortality, as they can die again, as Lazarus did. Revelation 20:5-6

I mean in your interpretation we just all soul sleep during the millennium I guess, so we just miss out on it entirely.

Only those people who die: Killed or natural go into soul sleep. Their next conscious moment will be as they stand before God on His GWT.
Those faithful Christians living when Jesus Returns, will go into the Millennium with Him. People will live for much longer, but there is still Death, which is only done away with in Eternity. Revelation 21:1-7

 

[ViaCrucis]

Most pre-Millennium believers are wrong.
There is no general resurrection when Jesus Returns; ONLY the GT martyrs. Revelation 20:4 And they are not given immortality, as they can die again, as Lazarus did. Revelation 20:5-6

Only those people who die: Killed or natural go into soul sleep. Their next conscious moment will be as they stand before God on His GWT.
Those faithful Christians living when Jesus Returns, will go into the Millennium with Him. People will live for much longer, but there is still Death, which is only done away with in Eternity. Revelation 21:1-7

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just believe the plain words of Scripture? Which says that when Christ returns the dead will be raised, and at the resurrection death is swallowed up in victory.

Why butcher the Bible with scissors and duct-tape? It honestly doesn't make any sense to me. Is it about feeling special because you have secret doctrines that nobody else knows?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jamdoc]

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just believe the plain words of Scripture? Which says that when Christ returns the dead will be raised, and at the resurrection death is swallowed up in victory.

Why butcher the Bible with scissors and duct-tape? It honestly doesn't make any sense to me. Is it about feeling special because you have secret doctrines that nobody else knows?

-CryptoLutheran

I mean to be fair, a lot of people scissors and duct tape scripture. pre-trib is all about scissors and duct tape, hard dispensationalism is all scissors and duct tape. Not saying keras is either of those but I'm just saying some very popular doctrines ARE in fact held together by scissors and duct tape. It is to some degree, understandable because at times 2 passages about a specific thing can seem to give opposing views, how do you reconcile them? Calvinism vs Arminianism, there are supporting scriptures for both, it's difficult to reconcile, so we can't really consider anyone holding to either camp as heretics because we can understand how they came to that understanding.

another instance is.. the contrast between Matthew 22:30, and Isaiah 65:23. Marriage has always been the only legal way to have offspring, anything else is fornication and sin. Matthew 22 says no marriage after the resurrection, Isaiah 65 has offspring being born on the New Earth.

To reconcile there are a few ways to look at it.
keras and most premillennials have chosen to inject the millennial kingdom into this passage rather than accept that God is describing the New Earth. That way they can reconcile that there is no marriage and no births on the New Earth, but there are among people who survived the 70th week in unbelief. However as I pointed out there's a problem with that in Isaiah's text saying that these are redeemed people's offspring, not unbelievers.

I have a different way of reconciling it.. but I don't like to just put it out there explicitly because of how bad the pushback will likely be because the eternally celibate eternity is a very popular doctrine.

But because I do not inject the Millennium into the text, God says new heavens and new earth and proceeds to describe it.. so I have to reconcile Matthew 22 with Isaiah 65 as both being true, and both being post resurrection.

 

[keras]

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to just believe the plain words of Scripture

That is what I do.

Which says that when Christ returns the dead will be raised, and at the resurrection death is swallowed up in victory.

The three proof texts that Prophecy the glorious Return do not say there will be a general resurrection then. Zechariah
14:4, Matthew 24:40-41, Rev 19:11-21. ONLY in Revelation 20:4-6, is there any mention of a resurrection; that of the GT Martyrs.

Any other Prophesies which say there will be a resurrection and people changed, ALL refer to after the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

keras and most premillennials have chosen to inject the millennial kingdom into this passage rather than accept that God is describing the New Earth.

It is plainly obvious that Isaiah 65:18-25 & Isaiah 2:2-5, Zechariah 14:16-21, cannot mean those things happen in Eternity.
But they all fit in the forthcoming Millennium, on earth, with mortal humans and animals.

 

[Jamdoc]

That is what I do.

The three proof texts that Prophecy the glorious Return do not say there will be a general resurrection then. Zechariah
14:4, Matthew 24:40-41, Rev 19:11-21. ONLY in Revelation 20:4-6, is there any mention of a resurrection; that of the GT Martyrs.

Any other Prophesies which say there will be a resurrection and people changed, ALL refer to after the GWT Judgment. Rev 20:11-15

It is plainly obvious that Isaiah 65:18-25 & Isaiah 2:2-5, Zechariah 14:16-21, cannot mean those things happen in Eternity.
But they all fit in the forthcoming Millennium, on earth, with mortal humans and animals.

Isaiah 2 is not talking about the New Earth, Isaiah 2 is talking about the Messianic Kingdom.

It's Isaiah 65 that specifically says, a New Earth.