idk if this belongs here or what? But i have to be getting this all wrong...

[keras]

Much of it will be fulfilled literally but sometimes Jesus used figurative language. John 3:13 was one of them. "nobody goes to heaven" was not His point.

Rubbish. His point was: nobody goes to heaven, except Himself. And He supported that truth with six more scriptures.

the great tribulation that precedes the Day of the Lord.

This false idea makes a total mish-mash of Revelation.
The great and terrible Day the Lord will change the world and commence all the end times events, is the Sixth Seal. Which HAS to come before the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, because the Seals of a scroll must be removed before the scroll can be opened.

You only know that through hindsight. If you were alive prior to the first coming of Jesus you'd probably be having a preterist view of it because it's 70 weeks and the weeks would have been fulfilled long in the past. But because you were born well after Jesus, the idea that the 70 weeks were 70 sets of 7 years instead became established.

I doubt this. Sure; hindsight is our great advantage now, but what Daniel 9:24-27 says is plain to me. The Messiah, Jesus; will be cut off at the end of the 69th 7 year period. Then the final 7 years, or at least the second half of it is described many times in Revelation, culminating with the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for the next thousand years.
The first half; Daniel 9:27....with one half spent..... will be peaceful, as the treaty holds.

 

[Jamdoc]

Rubbish. His point was: nobody goes to heaven, except Himself. And He supported that truth with six more scriptures.

Context of John 3 is not "nobody goes to heaven", Context of John 3 is how to see the Kingdom of God, to get born again, note that Nicodemus tries to interpret it literally "how can I go back into my mother's womb to get born again?"

Hebrews 11

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Where was Enoch taken then? Because biblically it's understood he was taken by God, and has never died.

2 Kings

1 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

...

11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Are these just lies then?

Is only John 3:13 true and the rest of the bible just allegory and lies?

This is what I mean, you take 1 verse, build a doctrine on it that doesn't fit the rest of scripture, and just ignore it when it's conflicted.

This false idea makes a total mish-mash of Revelation.
The great and terrible Day the Lord will change the world and commence all the end times events, is the Sixth Seal. Which HAS to come before the Great Trib of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, because the Seals of a scroll must be removed before the scroll can be opened.

Matthew 24 uses the signs of the sixth seal as those that happen at Jesus' return. you've injected something else in there instead.

I doubt this. Sure; hindsight is our great advantage now, but what Daniel 9:24-27 says is plain to me. The Messiah, Jesus; will be cut off at the end of the 69th 7 year period. Then the final 7 years, or at least the second half of it is described many times in Revelation, culminating with the glorious Return of Jesus to reign on earth for the next thousand years.
The first half; Daniel 9:27....with one half spent..... will be peaceful, as the treaty holds.

It says weeks

I'd think that it's obvious when Jesus uses "the day of vengeance, and year of recompenses" interchangeably it'd make it clear that it's not a 24 hour day, especially because throughout scripture the Lord comes down from heaven and then DOES things, goes places, saves His people, destroys His enemies, various locations in particular Edom and Idumea.

 

[keras]

Are these just lies then?

The lie is the 'rapture' theory. The idea that God will take the Christian peoples to heaven before His wrath or any tribulation.
3 times we are told to endure until the end. We must face trials and testing; 1 Peter 4:12

It says weeks

That word in Hebrew simply means - sevens. We know it refers to seven years because of the time from the Kings decree for the Jewish return to Jesus was 69 X 7 -'weeks' = 483 years.

Matthew 24 uses the signs of the sixth seal as those that happen at Jesus' return. you've injected something else in there instead.

The glorious Return bears no relation to the Prophesied worldwide disasters of the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. You are guilty of changing Revelation to conflate the Great Day of Almighty God, Revelation 16:14, and the terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath.

 

[Jamdoc]

The lie is the 'rapture' theory. The idea that God will take the Christian peoples to heaven before His wrath or any tribulation.
3 times we are told to endure until the end. We must face trials and testing; 1 Peter 4:12

I never said it was before tribulation, it is however, before His wrath. You're not expected to weather God's wrath, we're not appointed to God's wrath. But we are expected to endure tribulation, that is, persecution by men.

That word in Hebrew simply means - sevens. We know it refers to seven years because of the time from the Kings decree for the Jewish return to Jesus was 69 X 7 -'weeks' = 483 years.

That is, hindsight. I'm saying if you were living before Jesus was born? You'd have probably thought 70 weeks is 70 sets of 7 days. Because it's that same logic of thinking that drives your interpretation of anything related to the day of the Lord.

The glorious Return bears no relation to the Prophesied worldwide disasters of the Lord's Day of fiery wrath. You are guilty of changing Revelation to conflate the Great Day of Almighty God, Revelation 16:14, and the terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath.

It does though, it is throughout the Old Testament that the Lord comes down in wrath to punish the Ungodly.

the wrath of God comes with and after His return.

great tribulation =/= the wrath of God. Nowhere in the bible is the wrath of God referred to as tribulation. That's pretribulationist thinking that linked the two of them together, because the bible doesn't teach it.

 

[JulieB67]

So, Idk where to start this. But I have a confession to make, I dread heaven, the new earth, whatever. Now before you attack me, let me explain.

Don't worry. I don't think we will care about the former things that have passed away. I trust God that it will be even better than what we can even imagine. And it's written that the former things will not even come to mind. I have interests but nothing so important that I would not let them go for something better in what our Father has in store for us.

I guess I'm lucky, there's not much of this world I'm too happy about anymore. Not that I'm not a happy person, I'm strictly talking "this world". It's getting easier and easier to look forward and not backward. Which I do from time to time (my idea of the good ole days) and then I realize the good days are ahead. I'm excited to think about what the new heavens and earth will be like.

 

[keras]

I never said it was before tribulation, it is however, before His wrath. You're not expected to weather God's wrath, we're not appointed to God's wrath. But we are expected to endure tribulation, that is, persecution by

1 Peter 4:12 refutes you. ....the fiery ordeal that will come to test you......
The great ordeal of the Sixth Seal, Revelation 7:14, that will come upon everyone, the whole world over. 2 Peter 3:7, Luke 21:34-35

the wrath of God comes with and after His return.

A direct and wilfully wrong statement. Matthew 24:29-30 and Revelation 15:1, clearly say the wrath of God is over BEFORE Jesus Returns.

great tribulation =/= the wrath of God. Nowhere in the bible is the wrath of God referred to as tribulation. That's pretribulationist thinking that linked the two of them together, because the bible doesn't teach it.

ALL of the Great Tribulation, of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls will be the wrath of God against His enemies. God will send the disasters that will punish the ungodly peoples. Revelation 16:10-11
God's wrath will only be over when His enemies are made His footstool. That is; when they are all destroyed, culminating with the destruction of the attacking armies at Armageddon. Revelation 16:16-18
Only the faithful Christian peoples will go with Jesus into the Millennium.

 

[keras]

It does though, it is throughout the Old Testament that the Lord comes down in wrath to punish the Ungodly.

Another gross error. The Lord SENDS His fiery wrath: Amos 1, Amos 2:1-5, Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:7-15, He will not be seen on that terrible Day. Habakkuk 3:4, Revelation 6:12-17

 

[Jamdoc]

Don't worry. I don't think we will care about the former things that have passed away. I trust God that it will be even better than what we can even imagine. And it's written that the former things will not even come to mind. I have interests but nothing so important that I would not let them go for something better in what our Father has in store for us.

I guess I'm lucky, there's not much of this world I'm too happy about anymore. Not that I'm not a happy person, I'm strictly talking "this world". It's getting easier and easier to look forward and not backward. Which I do from time to time (my idea of the good ole days) and then I realize the good days are ahead. I'm excited to think about what the new heavens and earth will be like.

I can empathize with this but also understand the OP's fear, because it is a popular teaching that it's all just singing and religious worship. If it were just singing and religious worship, it'd be a tough case to make any claim that it's "better" than anything other than going to hell. a 24/7 ego stroking session forever makes me feel ill. It would make God seem petty and self absorbed. It'd make the most selfless act in history, dying for the sins of His creations to save them, into the most selfish act in all creation: doing it so that people would stroke his ego over it unceasingly.

Jesus talked about not doing things just to be praised by men for it, such as doing good works.

Matthew 6

1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

So he says these words, and is our example.. and his motivation for it all... is the unceasing praise of men? How hypocritical would that be?

But.. thankfully.. that is not the relationship that God desires.

Revelation 21

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

It is more intimate, and reinforces the selflessness of the act. What the motivation is, is relationship., to have family. To mutually love.

 

[Timtofly]

Isaiah 65 isn't saying there will be deaths, it's just a way of saying there won't be death, but it appears there will be births.

Well any disobedient children will certainly be killed. Sin will not be tolerated, not allowed to enter the world.

 

[Jamdoc]

Well any disobedient children will certainly be killed. Sin will not be tolerated, not allowed to enter the world.

Everything will be made new, there won't be sin. God's plan is Eden but the whole planet rather than a garden with finite boundaries.

 

[Timtofly]

Everything will be made new, there won't be sin. God's plan is Eden but the whole planet rather than a garden with finite boundaries.

You are still talking about the 1,000 year reign of Christ? Isaiah 65 is still current creation.

Some claim there is still sin and sinners in the 1,000 year reign.

 

[JulieB67]

Let's agree to say "BLESSED" in Jesus, no luck involved at all , 'k ?

True!

 

[Jamdoc]

You are still talking about the 1,000 year reign of Christ? Isaiah 65 is still current creation.

Some claim there is still sin and sinners in the 1,000 year reign.

Isaiah 65 says its the new earth.

 

[Timtofly]

Some reading this forum today might be alive during the reign, if God Permits.

Scripture is Always, Perfectly Truthful and Reliable and Trustworthy .

If they are they will be translated out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

 

[Timtofly]

oops, back up please. Sin is tolerated /even promoted/ daily in all , or almost all groups.
What makes you think this will change when you say it will change ?

Because Daniel 9:24 will be in effect, not just symbolically understood.

How can we be in eternal righteousness now, with sin still rampant?

 

[Timtofly]

Isaiah 65 says its the new earth.

Isaiah 65 points out the cleansing of the earth with fire, as a new earth. All the stars come to earth at the Second Coming. There will be a new heaven as well. The former one rolled back as a scroll. There may not be any more stars after the Second Coming. Who knows?

The NHNE of Revelation 21, is after Jesus delivers up creation back to God. That is after the 1,000 years of new heavens and earth. This current creation needs to have the curse removed. That in itself will be a new earth. No more sin and decay, a new earth.

 

[Timtofly]

How did Jesus and His righteous faithful followers remain holy in the midst of an evil and peverse generation ?

I think the whole point was no sin at all. No one has to worry about sin. Not even Satan, as he is bound , and cannot deceive any Adams or Eves.

 

[parousia70]

How can we be in eternal righteousness now, with sin still rampant?

What power does sin have over righteousness today?

It can’t prevent salvation. It’s completely 100% powerless to do that, I can’t prevent the spread of the gospel, also, 100% powerless to do that, and it can’t prevent the advancement of the church, again, 100% powerless to do that. So, what other power do you claim sin has over righteousness today that matters?