Ideas on Ancestral and Original Sin

[GregConstantine]

@Christiancounseling, this isn't about opinions and feelings, it is about what is the Truth? Most of what we've told you so far has not been our personal feelings or opinions, but the official teachings of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church (aka "Orthodox")

Not sure why you have your name as "christiancounseling", maybe you are a counselor by trade? If you are, then you know that sometimes, you have to tell your patients when counseling them that while their feelings and opinions are certainly valid and can sometimes be helpful, they are not always indicative of what the reality on the ground might actually be, no do they dictate what that reality might be. We also have to tell them that sometimes they have to put their feelings and emotions to the side in order to come to some type of healing or resolution to a problem they are having.

It is the same thing with every aspect of life, including faith. Regardless of what one may say or feel, the teachings of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is that She alone is the true Church. No more, no less, no if's, but's, maybes, could bes, should bes, feelings, perspectives, emotions, and on and on and on.

Once one comes to terms with that then all these other things you are bringing up will suddenly become clear and make sense.

 

[GregConstantine]

<< Removed quoted post only >>

We have taken up this challenge, and we here who are converts who took up this challenge, as well as many thousands of other people outside this forum who also took up the very same challenge, became convinced of the truth of Orthodoxy because we took up that very same challenge!

 

[jckstraw72]

<< Staff Edit >>

this idea of speculative theology is strange. for us, theology is experiential. the Saints write of what they experience - they're humble people - they have no desire to put forth speculations coming from themselves.

 

[isshinwhat]

<< Staff Edit >>

As a Roman Catholic I felt much the same as you. I now see that I had to believe that way because the Orthodox Church practices the Faith as it did when Rome was in Communion with the Church. It is not the Orthodox who have changed, but Rome. Therefore just as the Anglican Church sees as valid Catholic Sacraments and invites Catholics to the Altar - yet Catholics cannot reciprocate, so the Roman Church sees the Orthodox as true Churches and invites us to Communion - yet we cannot share that view. As Catholics believe Anglicans have abandoned the faith and adopted progressive, heretical doctrine/dogma; so do we believe of Rome.

 

[Anhelyna]

Forgive me please if I ask a question here but I'm a little confused. I had made a decision not to post in this thread but some elucidation is needed.

<< Staff Edit >>

My understanding is that the Coptic Orthodox Church is not in Communion with GOA , OCA etc as they are Non-Chalcedonian - am I correct ?

 

[GregConstantine]

Rome is also not in communion with them too

 

[ArmyMatt]

Forgive me please if I ask a question here but I'm a little confused. I had made a decision not to post in this thread but some elucidation is needed.

<< Staff Edit >>

Bolding and underlining is mine My understanding is that the Coptic Orthodox Church is not in Communion with GOA , OCA etc as they are Non-Chalcedonian - am I correct ?

yes, and his earlier post as well that states that Rome has been blessed to receive in Orthodox Churches is also false.

 

[truefiction1]

<< Staff Edit >>

I'm sorry, but union with Rome is not only not necessary, but would accomplish nothing, and would change nothing. Why? Because Rome is merely a symbol for unity for those who place their confidence in her, a mere cognitive construct taught in Roman Church catechisms: in essence a lie with no basis in reality. We know this is so, because the only way in which any of us is truly United is in our nature as humans. Ironically, it is that very nature itself that fuels divisions, and diversity.

I don't mean any disrespect, but time constraints force me to be short in my responses. I simply must sum things up by saying that Rome is not in charge here. Human nature is. And as long as we remain ignorant of our nature, and at present powerless in the face of its worldwide expression, we will continue to be controlled by it in such ways that will guaranty divisions, even inside of Rome.

 

[Anhelyna]

ArmyMatt

In a way Christiancounsellor is correct - the RC Church does say that RCs may receive in the Orthodox Church , but does also say that priests may not permit Communion. The RC Church also asks its members to respect the traditions of the Orthodox Church in this matter

 

[RileyG]

I have a tendency to just nod and smile when Roman or Eastern Catholics tend to think we are in communion. Since I know we cannot commune, at least from our end, then its a settled issue. Nonetheless, I am most hopeful for our reconciliation in the heavenly kingdom as long as individuals we work out our salvation with fear & trembling.

I'm sorry a Catholic would be so disrespectful to an Orthodox Christian. If they think inter-communion is possible, or if we are in communion, then they are ignorant of their own Faith.

OP- the EO reject RC dogmas such as Purgatory, Indulgences, Papacy, etc therefore our division is very real. That's just reality.

Remember, I am RC, and obviously you know how we [us RC's] view the EO, and OO sacraments and orders etc. However, we very much are divided.

God Bless

 

[RileyG]

Forgive me please if I ask a question here but I'm a little confused. I had made a decision not to post in this thread but some elucidation is needed.

<< Staff Edit >>

Bolding and underlining is mine My understanding is that the Coptic Orthodox Church is not in Communion with GOA , OCA etc as they are Non-Chalcedonian - am I correct ?

You are correct, If I recall correctly.

 

[RileyG]

ArmyMatt

In a way Christiancounsellor is correct - the RC Church does say that RCs may receive in the Orthodox Church , but does also say that priests may not permit Communion. The RC Church also asks its members to respect the traditions of the Orthodox Church in this matter

The short answer is; no.
HOWEVER...
Yes, only in cases of emergency, if a Catholic priest wasn't available, if only the priest allows. However, obviously since the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox aren't in communion, we can't share sacraments.

 

[ArmyMatt]

ArmyMatt

In a way Christiancounsellor is correct - the RC Church does say that RCs may receive in the Orthodox Church , but does also say that priests may not permit Communion. The RC Church also asks its members to respect the traditions of the Orthodox Church in this matter

I meant from our POV. I know Rome has blessed them to recieve (as if the Pope has any say in what goes down outside of his church), but that does not matter.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The short answer is; no.
HOWEVER...
Yes, only in cases of emergency, if a Catholic priest wasn't available, if only the priest allows. However, obviously since the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox aren't in communion, we can't share sacraments.

I am pretty sure that even in an emergency, it is not allowed. this is not just us being stuffy and not allowing someone to commune, but as a guard for their soul as well. since they are not members of the Orthodox Church, it could actually do more harm than good.

 

[RileyG]

I am pretty sure that even in an emergency, it is not allowed. this is not just us being stuffy and not allowing someone to commune, but as a guard for their soul as well. since they are not members of the Orthodox Church, it could actually do more harm than good.

Thank You, for responding.

 

[RileyG]

I apologize if I came off as arrogant or condescending. That was not my intention, I'm rather impulsive.

Forgive me,
R.P.

 

[buzuxi02]

The question is why would the RC allow their laity to recieve in an Orthodox Church?

What is there ecclesiology and does that ecclesiology square away with what they taught centuries ago?
Ate they claiming the Body of Christ is fractured and segmented? On the cross, not a bone of His was broken.

There is no such thing as the sin of division between seperated bodies. There is only a falling away from the One Body, that is from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Fathers.

 

[ArmyMatt]

The question is why would the RC allow their laity to recieve in an Orthodox Church?

because they view our sacraments as valid since there were no innovation in the East, although this is a very modern teaching.

What is there ecclesiology and does that ecclesiology square away with what they taught centuries ago?

from what I have gathered talking to RC buddies, and what I have seen on EWTN, they recognize our Episcopacy, and the only thing we need to do is come back into communion with Rome. for the second part I would say no, their earlier councils condemn us and (interestingly enough) Eastern Catholics as heretics on paper, but since more modern Popes have said praises about the East and her Tradition, they kinda ignore what earlier Popes and councils have said.

There is no such thing as the sin of division between seperated bodies. There is only a falling away from the One Body, that is from the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church of the Fathers.

indeed

 

[RileyG]

because they view our sacraments as valid since there were no innovation in the East, although this is a very modern teaching.



from what I have gathered talking to RC buddies, and what I have seen on EWTN, they recognize our Episcopacy, and the only thing we need to do is come back into communion with Rome. for the second part I would say no, their earlier councils condemn us and (interestingly enough) Eastern Catholics as heretics on paper, but since more modern Popes have said praises about the East and her Tradition, they kinda ignore what earlier Popes and councils have said.



indeed

um...I'm confused. A Catholic cannot receive the sacred mysteries in an Orthodox Church because they aren't Orthodox...that's my understanding. I'm VERY respectful of others beliefs, BTW and I would NEVER want to be disrespectful to ANY Christian.

ARMYMATT- What do you mean by the Body and Blood can "harm" someone? Do you mean they are eating and drinking condemnation upon themselves like St. Paul said in his letters? Is that correct? I understand the East is VERY careful about prep. before Communion with confession, strict fasting, prayers etc, so there wouldn't be any "undercover" communicants....

(BTW by strict I meant far more strict than the west is.......to my understanding ie no dairy, or meat or water, etc..Correct me if I'm wrong)

 

[ArmyMatt]

um...I'm confused. A Catholic cannot receive the sacred mysteries in an Orthodox Church because they aren't Orthodox...that's my understanding. I'm VERY respectful of others beliefs, BTW and I would NEVER want to be disrespectful to ANY Christian.

they can from Rome's POV. if an EO parish was willing to commune them (although that would excommunicate and defrock the priest).

ARMYMATT- What do you mean by the Body and Blood can "harm" someone? Do you mean they are eating and drinking condemnation upon themselves like St. Paul said in his letters? Is that correct?

yeah, what St Paul said. you are taking the fire of Divinity inside of yourself. if you are not prepared (reception in an Orthodox Church, recent confession and fasting prior), you commune condemnation unto yourself.