Icons...

[Gxg (G²)]

Indeed, nothing can give us full understanding of God; He is beyond our comprehension.

But this does not preclude us from reading Scriptures.

So the icon uses visual language that is in accord with doctrine and dogma.

If one reads the Scriptures, then it is because one can read and can read specifically the language that is used for the Scriptures s/he is reading. This also with icons.

On what you noted, I'd wonder if there are spiritual opposites to what is being discussed. More specifically, just as the enemy desires to be worshiped as the Lord (while also inhabiting the praises of his people like the Holy Spirit does with his own - even desiring to live spiritually within others as the Holy Spirit does in transforming them), I do wonder if there's a spiritual equivalent to icons from an evil sense.

For it often seems people see icons in one sense of being either entirely reflective of the Lord - or in the sense of being entirely of idolatry - and I'd think it's more than possible that there are evil versions of icons/imagery that can be used for negative.

 

[Thekla]

On what you noted, I'd wonder if there are spiritual opposites to what is being discussed. More specifically, just as the enemy desires to be worshiped as the Lord (while also inhabiting the praises of his people like the Holy Spirit does with his own - even desiring to live spiritually within others as the Holy Spirit does in transforming them), I do wonder if there's a spiritual equivalent to icons from an evil sense.

For it often seems people see icons in one sense of being either entirely reflective of the Lord - or in the sense of being entirely of idolatry - and I'd think it's more than possible that there are evil versions of icons/imagery that can be used for negative.

I'm not really familiar with such things ... would amulets, voodoo dolls (which are reportedly used beyond the immediate 'originating' culture), tarot cards be similar to what you are referring to ?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I'm not really familiar with such things ... would amulets, voodoo dolls (which are reportedly used beyond the immediate 'originating' culture), tarot cards be similar to what you are referring to ?

That can be one version of what it is I'm thinking of - and within that can include making imagery in art of the spiritual realm. Had it one time where I was drawing some comic art and made a picture of a demon warrior I had in mind for this battle between angels and fallen spirits over mankind. I've drawn angels before and was encouraged by the imagery and what it symbolized when I prayed - and went back to see it since my imagination was based A LOT on visuals....and yet with the demon I drew, took about 2 days to draw and thought I did a good job - till I kept going back looking at it/found myself captivated. And later realized that it seemed the drawing began to take a life of its own that had too much of my focus - I ended up dumping it since it didn't feel right and with comics in general I noticed a lot of things with the ways the comics seemed to open me up imagery wise to concepts I'd not consider before..

On my question, of course, I was primarily thinking of physical/artistic depictions of Christ that take others into a spiritual realm which is opposite of where others are meant to go ...leading to communion with the wrong spirits rather than with the saints or connection in the Heavenlies.

One example I'm thinking of is how A famous Russian novelist said there is nothing more masculine than Christ, meaning therefore that it makes sense that there is nothing more effeminate (NOT feminine but effeminate) than Antichrist. Some pointed out in connection with this how it was seen in Mel Gibson's "The Passion" movie. For as you will remember, in the film Satan as seen in that film was depicted as a sexless, effiminate appearing person (actually played by a woman but without hair lending to a male appearance) with long nails and languid eyes. Some say that's fine for Roman Catholics and Hollywood producers - and yet it was pointed out that in the Orthodox Church, we have Icons of Christ which depict him as genderless- such as the Russian Icon of Christ as Hesychia ("The Blessed Silence").

[URL="http://civa-artists.ning.com/photo/holy-silence"] ​

[/URL]

Are these Icons "evil"? Some would say it's of no consequence - whereas others would take SERIOUS issue with that...and of course, the Lord having feminine qualities is not what I have in mind since there are many times Christ and the Father/Holy Spirit describe themselves as such. But for others who focus on the genderless aspects in support of things such as homosexuality, a genderless icon or things with genderless features can be utilized to take them into a place spiritually where they feel such is condoned - and thus, the icon is used to transport into another place entirely.

And outside of that, some of this goes for others having icons of saints and yet seeing them in what others deem to be places lacking reverence - like having T-Shirts for it (if you recall what was discussed before elsewhere in the thread entitled Fashion or Faux Pas? - as it pertains to the reality of how icons/Christian imagery have been utilized by people in fashion shows and modeling for pop culture.....even though it is a means of taking away the concept of Holiness):

Interesting topic for the OP.


I was JUST talking with an Orthodox priest on the issue when talking about how culture loves those things which are beautiful - even if they may use them outside of beautiful goals and associate them with ugly lifestyles. And I told the man that I'd bet money that there's gonna come a day when fashion styles in Hip Hop/Pop culture will have it where the vestments used and icons utilized will be what the musicians wear at their concerts...and that there'd probably come a day when vestments or icons used in a religious sense would be taken for their asthetic/beautiful appeal and used for everyday fashion.

With the fashion show, the shirts for the men stood out to me, as it was captivating:

But prayerfully, it doesn't turn into something where folks begin wearing the shirts with icons on them like a lot of folks do when wearing shirts that have pictures of Christ on it and yet those folks are not even saved.​

http://www.upscalehype.com/2012/07/big-sean-wearing-en-noir-triumph-divine-art-and-pavo-t-shirts/​

​

Some of what's happening reminds me of what was discussed in the book entitled Hidden and Triumphant: The Underground Struggle to Save Russian Iconography .... (more discussed in an older thread on the board entitled Is "Hidden & Triumphant: The Underground ... - Christian Forums).​

With the Icons, something that I did find interesting in the "Hidden and Triumphant" book was seeing how Iconography flourished in spite of the government restrictions/attacks on religion itself. It seemed ironic for the government to be against the ways others were supporting icons, first deeming it to be superstition that influenced people...and then seeking to wipe it out...and yet choosing, for some odd reason, to allow the then current icons to be housed in the museums thereby relegating them to art so as to remove their religious significance. It was as if the government realized that the only way they could destory the power of icons/the stories they tell and the Savior they ultimately point to (Christ) was to simply have it where they made the icons seem like ordinary artwork alone.

Much of what the government did with taking icons/seeking to "normalize" them seems similar to what many in the world have sought to do with Christ when seeing that it's fultile to get others to not love/revere him or believe he doesn't exist---and thus, they switch to trying to make him a mere historical figure and say he was just a "good teacher" or someone with great ideas who is to be respected. The entire dynamic with attempting to bring greatness down to levels where it's no longer considered as it was meant to be...and effectively, finding a way to "own" what was meant to be in control.

This tends to happen with anything artistic in general - be it what happens in the world of paintings/drawings or music and anything else the culture tries to get a hold of in order to control how others see things. Germany sought to do so with controlling the music that was present and so did Russia after the Russian Revolution and ensuring that some things never got out of control.

As Sister Thekla once said to me on the issue:

I do think that the 'gutting' of the Arts is part of our culture's problems. As one Orthodox bishop pointed out, Art is the repository of what is valuable in a culture (and prepares the sensibility for spirituality). Gut Art, and culture is diminished as well as the sense of the spiritual. This, I think, is a US problem -- Nazi Germany and the USSR banned, our culture instead makes Art non-existent (shallow). A note on the "museum" relocation of the spiritual in the USSR; my college professor used to travel to the USSR frequently, and moved in the underground Christian communities there. He noted that believers would visit museums (they did this to the monasteries as well), lag behind the tour group, pray and reverence the icons. His book "The Illuminating Icon" (Anthony Ugolnik) might be of interest to you.
​

Imo, commodification of anything = gutting of it.

Now we're included :o

(The dresses themselves are lovely; it's the icons/symbolism that I'm referring to ...)

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Icons are no more (or less) "idolatrous" than the use of letters/ writting or human language to describe the sacred. One could complain that visual images are not up to the task but our language isn't perfectly fit to the task either. We work with what we have. By combining multiple medias we are better equipped to express truth. Why not work with every sense.

 

[Thekla]

That can be one version of what it is I'm thinking of - and within that can include making imagery in art of the spiritual realm. Had it one time where I was drawing some comic art and made a picture of a demon warrior I had in mind for this battle between angels and fallen spirits over mankind. I've drawn angels before and was encouraged by the imagery and what it symbolized when I prayed - and went back to see it since my imagination was based A LOT on visuals....and yet with the demon I drew, took about 2 days to draw and thought I did a good job - till I kept going back looking at it/found myself captivated. And later realized that it seemed the drawing began to take a life of its own that had too much of my focus - I ended up dumping it since it didn't feel right and with comics in general I noticed a lot of things with the ways the comics seemed to open me up imagery wise to concepts I'd not consider before..

On my question, of course, I was primarily thinking of physical/artistic depictions of Christ that take others into a spiritual realm which is opposite of where others are meant to go ...leading to communion with the wrong spirits rather than with the saints or connection in the Heavenlies.

One example I'm thinking of is how A famous Russian novelist said there is nothing more masculine than Christ, meaning therefore that it makes sense that there is nothing more effeminate (NOT feminine but effeminate) than Antichrist. Some pointed out in connection with this how it was seen in Mel Gibson's "The Passion" movie. For as you will remember, in the film Satan as seen in that film was depicted as a sexless, effiminate appearing person (actually played by a woman but without hair lending to a male appearance) with long nails and languid eyes. Some say that's fine for Roman Catholics and Hollywood producers - and yet it was pointed out that in the Orthodox Church, we have Icons of Christ which depict him as genderless- such as the Russian Icon of Christ as Hesychia ("The Blessed Silence").

Are these Icons "evil"? Some would say it's of no consequence - whereas others would take SERIOUS issue with that...and of course, the Lord having feminine qualities is not what I have in mind since there are many times Christ and the Father/Holy Spirit describe themselves as such. But for others who focus on the genderless aspects in support of things such as homosexuality, a genderless icon or things with genderless features can be utilized to take them into a place spiritually where they feel such is condoned - and thus, the icon is used to transport into another place entirely.

And outside of that, some of this goes for others having icons of saints and yet seeing them in what others deem to be places lacking reverence - like having T-Shirts for it (if you recall what was discussed before elsewhere in the thread entitled Fashion or Faux Pas? - as it pertains to the reality of how icons/Christian imagery have been utilized by people in fashion shows and modeling for pop culture.....even though it is a means of taking away the concept of Holiness):

Ah, I see !

I think this is part of why there are "rules" governing the making of icons (and canonical vs. non-canonical icons).

About a decade ago, a monastery that called itself Orthodox (but with no canonical links) was selling "Orthodox Icons". I have to say, I didn't much like these and found them deeply "creepy". (Before I entered the Church, I admit I liked them, and had one of Archangel Michael iirc. By the time we had entered the EO, I had given this to my parents; they contacted an EO monastery about the icon, and were told they could post it to the monastery to be burned.) When more info. was found out about this business, the Orthodox vendors in the US stopped carrying their products en masse.

Another non-Orthodox Icon vendor had also became quite popular; when the catalogue came I showed it to a friend who worked at the parish bookstore. She found them so repulsive, she wouldn't even look at the catalogue further. As I investigated more closely, I noticed the descriptions given re: "Orthodox Saints" - clearly wrong. Yet she knew just by looking.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Ah, I see !

I think this is part of why there are "rules" governing the making of icons (and canonical vs. non-canonical icons).

About a decade ago, a monastery that called itself Orthodox (but with no canonical links) was selling "Orthodox Icons". I have to say, I didn't much like these and found them deeply "creepy". (Before I entered the Church, I admit I liked them, and had one of Archangel Michael iirc. By the time we had entered the EO, I had given this to my parents; they contacted an EO monastery about the icon, and were told they could post it to the monastery to be burned.) When more info. was found out about this business, the Orthodox vendors in the US stopped carrying their products en masse.

Seen that before - and it's truly a trip how you can have the imagery of something which seems legitimate...yet the spirit behind it can make one very unsettled and thus suspicious that there's more going on that the imagery itself in certain cases. Had it where I also went to a book store for a monastery I visited - and in the store, although it was a good experience overall being there, there were several things my priest noted to me to be careful of since it seemed there was also some things bordering on new-age focus within the store itself.


And with some of the icons (as well as statues), it simply didn't fit right.

As you recall (if you recall), had this happen to me once with a girl I was teaching at school whose parents were Orthodox.
Having friends/family in Greek Orthodox and working with other Orthodox already, I noted to her that the aspect of symbolism in Divine Liturgy/Orthodox experience isn't the same as magical charms to chase things away...and when she started to say Greek Orthodox believe in such things (as well as praying the Rosary) and she explained on how she had other members buy some kind of dust that was prayed over to use in helping her keep away ghosts she saw/saying it work (even though the family members who bought it were SIMULTANEOUSLY involved in witchcraft and magic), I had to note that it was still something she needed to be cautious of..

The same dynamic is present with icons when people note being able to talk to the saints/carry on a conversation with them and yet they don't even read scripture noting where them sleeping around is considered a sin (as they may be doing) - thus contaminating the experience the icons were meant to have since it has led them to have a false sense of reality and not even seeing where it may be demonic what's going down at times rather than truly prayer to the Lord.

Another non-Orthodox Icon vendor had also became quite popular; when the catalogue came I showed it to a friend who worked at the parish bookstore. She found them so repulsive, she wouldn't even look at the catalogue further. As I investigated more closely, I noticed the descriptions given re: "Orthodox Saints" - clearly wrong. Yet she knew just by looking.

Indeed. Just as it can be with prophecy or tongues or any other gift, there can be a negative version of it even if it seems similar - and that's not to say that variation of contexualization can never occur for new developments of course....for styles in iconagraphy has changed in differing circles (some being more life-like whereas others are more cartoon like as with the Coptics ) - but there's something about what actually is prayed that makes a difference.

Part of the reason why there was such a focus on the objects one obtained in the OT and not keeping them in many cases due to how others had prayed on spirits to act as Trojan Horses on items which seemed innocent - and yet God said to not keep it since spiritual rules STILL applied even if one had no intention of doing wrong.

For more specifics,
The special case of 1 Corinthians 10:14-22/1 Corinthians 10:6

14Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry. 15I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ? 17Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

18Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. 22Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?


​

Clearly, Paul thought it possible for a Christian to become a "sharer" or "partner" with demons. The word he uses here is koinonia = fellowship, communion with. It is the same word used in v. 16 for our sharing in or fellowshiping with Christ at His table! What does this mean? Is he referring merely to "agreement with" or the "holding of a common purpose with" Christ and/or a demon? Is it merely a description of external attendance at a pagan feast? Or does Paul have in mind a more active sharing of an internal spiritual bond or link or fellowship with a demon?

His point seems to be that when you sit to worship at the table of the Lord, or conversely, in the presence of idols, you open yourself to the power and influence of one or the other. There is a sharing of an intimate spiritual experience, an association of sorts, a relationship that is personal and powerful. But does it entail inhabitation by a demon?

Quote:
Acts 19:2


13Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15(One day) the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" 16Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

17When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. 18Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. 19A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas.[d] 20In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power.
__________________

When we do some things "just for fun" (such as going to a palm reader or a fortune teller or listening to a song with death/negative lyrics), when we cast spells and hexes "just for fun" while playing fantasy games such as Dungeons and Dragons or Pokemon, when we listen to certain songs and consider them to be harmless, etc., we are entering dangerous territory. Demons don't care if we were just kidding or "just having fun." If we invoke their language or dabble in their realm then they may become active in our life. Consider a prisoner of war who says, "I was just joking around, having some fun. I didn't mean for you to capture me!" That's what it is like when we naively play games or listen to songs which are associated with the demonic realm, no matter how "harmless" these things may seem to us.

And icons are just as subject to this as anything.....hence, why we have to ask if there are demonic icons or icons that can be made with the wrong spirit - or icons that were made with the RIGHT spirit but used for the WRONG intent, leading to a demonic encounter and a tainting of the icon by the attitude of the person touching it/using it to try connecting to the spiritual realm.

If you own any artwork that has occult symbols or pictures of pagan gods or goddesses on them, WE are to be aware that these may be more dangerous than you realize. Idols are associated with demons in Scripture, and the Israelites in the Old Testament were told over and over to smash and completely destroy all sacred images and idols from other cultures. Notice carefully what God's attitude is toward any artwork or objects associated with pagan beliefs:

"Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'When you cross the Jordan into Canaan, drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you. Destroy all their carved images and their cast idols, and demolish all their high places.'" (Numbers 33:51-53)

"This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah poles and burn their idols in the fire." (Deuteronomy 7:5)

"Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains and on the hills and under every spreading tree where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and burn their Asherah poles in the fire; cut down the idols of their gods and wipe out their names from those places." (Deuteronomy 12:2-3)

"They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols. They sacrificed to demons, which are not God" (Deuteronomy 32:16-17)

"They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons." (Psalm 106:36-37)

"Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons." (1 Corinthians 10:18-20)
​

We can clearly see in these passages that there are demons behind pagan idols and gods. When people sacrificed to the gods they were sacrificing to demons (see 1 Corinthians 10:18-20 above), and God commanded the Israelites to completely destroy all objects and artwork associated with these foreign gods. This was an act of spiritual warfare against the demonic realm, and we would be wise to destroy and get rid of any objects in our homes which are associated with the things in the list above. This simple act of destroying such objects and renouncing the spirits attached to them and dedicating the home and family to the Lord has brought freedom to families which were afflicted with strife in the home or afflicted with a string of "accidents" or illnesses, and so on. Unfortunately, modern Christians tend to be very naive when it comes to the spiritual realm, and we place ourselves in potential danger when we associate ourselves with anything having to do with pagan gods, goddesses, idols, vows, oaths, curses, etc.

There are many ministries that have CD Burning events where they burn all CDs by musicians that are ungodly.....AND the same thing can also apply to icons if they were made in the WRONG spirit - or with the wrong intent.

 

[Thekla]

Seen that before - and it's truly a trip how you can have the imagery of something which seems legitimate...yet the spirit behind it can make one very unsettled and thus suspicious that there's more going on that the imagery itself in certain cases. Had it where I also went to a book store for a monastery I visited - and in the store, although it was a good experience overall being there, there were several things my priest noted to me to be careful of since it seemed there was also some things bordering on new-age focus within the store itself.

And with some of the icons (as well as statues), it simply didn't fit right.

Indeed. Just as it can be with prophecy or tongues or any other gift, there can be a negative version of it even if it seems similar - and that's not to say that variation of contexualization can never occur for new developments of course....for styles in iconagraphy has changed in differing circles (some being more life-like whereas others are more cartoon like as with the Coptics ) - but there's something about what actually is prayed that makes a difference.

Part of the reason why there was such a focus on the objects one obtained in the OT and not keeping them in many cases due to how others had prayed on spirits to act as Trojan Horses on items which seemed innocent - and yet God said to not keep it since spiritual rules STILL applied even if one had no intention of doing wrong.

Although there are are "rules" (really templates) used in iconography -- and of course includes long periods of fasting and prayer before starting the icon -- there are of course varieties of style. And these vary by period, culture, and iconographer.

And in fact, there are also limits governing the use of icons - as all "stewardship" really is a matter of "right use".

(I thought to add: in College, I met several self-professed occultists. Of these six individuals, all but one were involved in Christian Churches or introduced to me - two of them - as Christians, and a third was a Bible Study leader in the Church she attended. This is helpful for the "sense" one gets of this phenomenon re: comparison.)

 

[Ishraqiyun]

I knew an Orthodox Icon painter (or writer as some prefer) and he definitely took his art seriously. It was an act of worship and service to God in his view. Painting icons can be a spiritual discipline of sorts. It's supposed to involve prayer too.

 

[Thekla]

I knew an Orthodox Icon painter (or writer as some prefer) and he definitely took his art seriously. It was an act of worship and service to God in his view. Painting icons can be a spiritual discipline of sorts. It's supposed to involve prayer too.

Absolutely - and these things are so important in "right" iconography.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Although there are are "rules" (really templates) used in iconography -- and of course includes long periods of fasting and prayer before starting the icon -- there are of course varieties of style. And these vary by period, culture, and iconographer.

Indeed. And templates is a good word for it - although the blueprint for it is never seperated from spiritual maturity and health to have it done right.

And in fact, there are also limits governing the use of icons - as all "stewardship" really is a matter of "right use".

True - the content outside of it's proper text/setting will make a con.

(I thought to add: in College, I met several self-professed occultists. Of these six individuals, all but one were involved in Christian Churches, and in one instance one was a Bible Study leader. This is helpful for the "sense" one gets of this phenomenon re: comparison.)

I've noticed this dynamic as well - some here on CF noting interest in Orthodoxy and going to parishes/being a part of them and yet being professed occultists. That is something I'm sensitive to when it comes to the spirit they may be walking in and how just because they may be praying with icons in the parish or in private doesn't mean that their experience is a valid one - or one that cannot take others in the wrong direction...



It's just as troublesome to me as seeing icons in syncrtistic fashion like having icons representing homosexuals - or icons representing Christ on the same level as Buddha.

​

 

[Thekla]

Indeed. And templates is a good word for it - although the blueprint for it is never seperated from spiritual maturity and health to have it done right.

Yup ! And typically, one has a blessing from one's spiritual father for this ministry.

True - the content outside of it's proper text/setting will make a con.I've noticed this dynamic as well - some here on CF noting interest in Orthodoxy and going to parishes/being a part of them and yet being professed occultists. That is something I'm sensitive to when it comes to the spirit they may be walking in and how just because they may be praying with icons in the parish or in private doesn't mean that their experience is a valid one - or one that cannot take others in the wrong direction...

It is something all need to be aware of. Of the five I met who were occultists, only one "visited" a "mainline" Church (though it was a multi-confessional Church, and I don't know that his activities were approved there). I hadn't thought of these people in years, but at the time it certainly "shook" me.

And for sure, even Satan can appear as "an angel of light".

 

[Ishraqiyun]

This is probably my favorite Icon that I have. Isaac of Syria was a man of real love and compassion and it shines through in his writings. He is one of the people I would have to meet if I had a time machine. What a lovely human being. A man who couldn't stand any sentient being suffering.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yup ! And typically, one has a blessing from one's spiritual father for this ministry.

Precisely..

It is something all need to be aware of. Of the five I met who were occultists, only one "visited" a "mainline" Church (though it was a multi-confessional Church, and I don't know that his activities were approved there). I hadn't thought of these people in years, but at the time it certainly "shook" me.

Curious as to how it shook you in the issue....or what others noted on it.

And for sure, even Satan can appear as "an angel of light".

I'd wonder, of course, on the issue of how it may be possible to worship with TRUE intent and desire for the Lord and yet still have either an INCOMPLETE image....or have it where an "angel of light" dynamic may go on with an icon done in the wrong spirit and yet someone was still able to connect with the Lord in a RIGHT Spirit while not knowing the full background of the icon....just as it is with music and still worshiping the Lord even if the background it came from was FAR from Holy but others didn't know better.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

If Jesus is the icon of God, I am reluctant to say everyone is.

Then what do you make of these verses

The priestly prayer of Jesus:
“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

2 Peter 1:4
For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

Parable of the sheep and goats
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

We should be seeing each other as we see Christ because we ARE in Christ and Christ is in us.

 

[Philothei]

The children do not appear to be worshiping God. I would not object to anyone accusing them of idolatry.

Really? I think people who practice judaism would sharply disagree with you


Especially when obviously what they kiss is the symbol of Torah


Just like they kiss the shema at their door.... Are aware that the shema says" Hear O Israel the Lord our God the Lord is one".; or kissing the wailing wall.....

Soooo if there is a symbolic veneration of kissing the wall for showing reverence to God then why would an icon would not be sufficient for the same action? Giving honor to God.... I do not see any difference...

 

[JesusFreak78]

No one is saying that an icon if God... or it depicts God's holiness...it is a carrier of divine Grace cause God causes it to be NOT man.... So anything that represents holiness could be used as a vessel of God's grace or then even we as humans are not icons of God then?

How does an icon become a carrier of divine grace? I'm pretty sure God is the carrier of grace, and not a man-made object.

 

[Thekla]

How does an icon become a carrier of divine grace? I'm pretty sure God is the carrier of grace, and not a man-made object.

And Paul's handkerchief, and Christ's robe, and the waters at the pool of Bethesda when stirred by an angel ...

 

[JesusFreak78]

Indeed, nothing can give us full understanding of God; He is beyond our comprehension.

But this does not preclude us from reading Scriptures.

So the icon uses visual language that is in accord with doctrine and dogma.

If one reads the Scriptures, then it is because one can read and can read specifically the language that is used for the Scriptures s/he is reading. This also with icons.

Since you agree with me God's holiness can't be shown in an icon, I hope you can agree with me an icon will also strip God from His holiness and therefore can't be from God.

We are reading the bible because the bible is been given to us God, which makes it a big different from man-made icons.

 

[JesusFreak78]

And Paul's handkerchief, and Christ's robe, and the waters at the pool of Bethesda when stirred by an angel ...

All of those things are not carrier of grace. They are tools used by God, so God alone is the one that should get the glory for it.

 

[Thekla]

All of those things are not carrier of grace. They are tools used by God, so God alone is the one that should get the glory for it.

The terminology varies, the effect is the same; carrier is actually something which is a tool (ie is not the thing itself but is a tool for transporting a thing).