Fashion or Faux Pas?

[Gxg (G²)]

Dolce & Gabbana Woman Fashion Show Press Release - Fall Winter 2014

Domenico Dolce & Stefano Gabbana were inspired by the mosaic of Monreale for this collection.

“The city of Monreale started to become important around the XI century with the arrival of the Normans in Sicily.
The Cathedral of Monreale, consecrated to Santa Maria Nuova, was built between 1172 and 1185 under the commission of the Norman King William II of Altavilla, together with the archiepiscopal Palace and its beautiful cloister.

In the top half of the walls a series of golden mosaics were created between the end of 1100 and the middle of 1200. Two of these mosaics represent William II crowned by Christ and William II who offers the church to the Virgin.

Princess and Queen-style golden crowns encrusted with stones and mosaic. Gold filigree bustier embellished with stones and mosaic and dedicated to Saint Agatha. Agata bags that are an homage to Catania’s saint patron: Saint Agatha.

There are some who are not that bad, but I really don't like the bags with Saint Agatha and wearing a top with the icon of Christ and shorts. And how about taking a seat while wearing a dress with an icon on your behind (like the one in the attachments)?

Good points - as it doesn't seem right that the icon is something you end up sitting down on.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I must admit...this design is gorgeous...needs more length to it:

Look at that. Even the shoes match.

slowly going in that direction bit by bit.

As it concerns the dress style, though, I must say that it's very stunning

 

[Gxg (G²)]

although, I believe a woman could wear this one just fine. It is stunning, I must say.

Well, maybe if they were wearing the BIG cross because they believed in what it means.

Another beautiful dress style.

That said, as they already did so in the fashion world with using that found in Eastern Christianity, I'd expect that they'll soon be making Barbie Dolls in the same manner to reflect what has now become "the stuff"

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I must admit...this design is gorgeous...needs more length to it:

Look at that. Even the shoes match.

Interesting topic for the OP.


I was JUST talking with an Orthodox priest on the issue when talking about how culture loves those things which are beautiful - even if they may use them outside of beautiful goals and associate them with ugly lifestyles. And I told the man that I'd bet money that there's gonna come a day when fashion styles in Hip Hop/Pop culture will have it where the vestments used and icons utilized will be what the musicians wear at their concerts...and that there'd probably come a day when vestments or icons used in a religious sense would be taken for their asthetic/beautiful appeal and used for everyday fashion.

With the fashion show, the shirts for the men stood out to me, as it was captivating:

But prayerfully, it doesn't turn into something where folks begin wearing the shirts with icons on them like a lot of folks do when wearing shirts that have pictures of Christ on it and yet those folks are not even saved.​

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Some of what's happening reminds me of what was discussed in the book entitled Hidden and Triumphant: The Underground Struggle to Save Russian Iconography .... (more discussed in an older thread on the board entitled Is "Hidden & Triumphant: The Underground ... - Christian Forums).
​

With the Icons, something that I did find interesting in the "Hidden and Triumphant" book was seeing how Iconography flourished in spite of the government restrictions/attacks on religion itself. It seemed ironic for the government to be against the ways others were supporting icons, first deeming it to be superstition that influenced people...and then seeking to wipe it out...and yet choosing, for some odd reason, to allow the then current icons to be housed in the museums thereby relegating them to art so as to remove their religious significance. It was as if the government realized that the only way they could destory the power of icons/the stories they tell and the Savior they ultimately point to (Christ) was to simply have it where they made the icons seem like ordinary artwork alone.

Much of what the government did with taking icons/seeking to "normalize" them seems similar to what many in the world have sought to do with Christ when seeing that it's fultile to get others to not love/revere him or believe he doesn't exist---and thus, they switch to trying to make him a mere historical figure and say he was just a "good teacher" or someone with great ideas who is to be respected. The entire dynamic with attempting to bring greatness down to levels where it's no longer considered as it was meant to be...and effectively, finding a way to "own" what was meant to be in control.

This tends to happen with anything artistic in general - be it what happens in the world of paintings/drawings or music and anything else the culture tries to get a hold of in order to control how others see things. Germany sought to do so with controlling the music that was present and so did Russia after the Russian Revolution and ensuring that some things never got out of control.

As Sister Thekla once said to me on the issue:

I do think that the 'gutting' of the Arts is part of our culture's problems. As one Orthodox bishop pointed out, Art is the repository of what is valuable in a culture (and prepares the sensibility for spirituality). Gut Art, and culture is diminished as well as the sense of the spiritual. This, I think, is a US problem -- Nazi Germany and the USSR banned, our culture instead makes Art non-existent (shallow). A note on the "museum" relocation of the spiritual in the USSR; my college professor used to travel to the USSR frequently, and moved in the underground Christian communities there. He noted that believers would visit museums (they did this to the monasteries as well), lag behind the tour group, pray and reverence the icons. His book "The Illuminating Icon" (Anthony Ugolnik) might be of interest to you.
​

 

[Dorothea]

slowly going in that direction bit by bit.

As it concerns the dress style, though, I must say that it's very stunning

Yes, indeed.

 

[Dorothea]

Another beautiful dress style.

That said, as they already did so in the fashion world with using that found in Eastern Christianity, I'd expect that they'll soon be making Barbie Dolls in the same manner to reflect what has now become "the stuff"

Ah, I hadn't thought of that.

 

[Dorothea]

Interesting topic for the OP.


I was JUST talking with an Orthodox priest on the issue when talking about how culture loves those things which are beautiful - even if they may use them outside of beautiful goals and associate them with ugly lifestyles. And I told the man that I'd bet money that there's gonna come a day when fashion styles in Hip Hop/Pop culture will have it where the vestments used and icons utilized will be what the musicians wear at their concerts...and that there'd probably come a day when vestments or icons used in a religious sense would be taken for their asthetic/beautiful appeal and used for everyday fashion.

With the fashion show, the shirts for the men stood out to me, as it was captivating:

But prayerfully, it doesn't turn into something where folks begin wearing the shirts with icons on them like a lot of folks do when wearing shirts that have pictures of Christ on it and yet those folks are not even saved.​

​

​

​

Some of what's happening reminds me of what was discussed in the book entitled Hidden and Triumphant: The Underground Struggle to Save Russian Iconography .... (more discussed in an older thread on the board entitled Is "Hidden & Triumphant: The Underground ... - Christian Forums).​

With the Icons, something that I did find interesting in the "Hidden and Triumphant" book was seeing how Iconography flourished in spite of the government restrictions/attacks on religion itself. It seemed ironic for the government to be against the ways others were supporting icons, first deeming it to be superstition that influenced people...and then seeking to wipe it out...and yet choosing, for some odd reason, to allow the then current icons to be housed in the museums thereby relegating them to art so as to remove their religious significance. It was as if the government realized that the only way they could destory the power of icons/the stories they tell and the Savior they ultimately point to (Christ) was to simply have it where they made the icons seem like ordinary artwork alone.

Much of what the government did with taking icons/seeking to "normalize" them seems similar to what many in the world have sought to do with Christ when seeing that it's fultile to get others to not love/revere him or believe he doesn't exist---and thus, they switch to trying to make him a mere historical figure and say he was just a "good teacher" or someone with great ideas who is to be respected. The entire dynamic with attempting to bring greatness down to levels where it's no longer considered as it was meant to be...and effectively, finding a way to "own" what was meant to be in control.

This tends to happen with anything artistic in general - be it what happens in the world of paintings/drawings or music and anything else the culture tries to get a hold of in order to control how others see things. Germany sought to do so with controlling the music that was present and so did Russia after the Russian Revolution and ensuring that some things never got out of control.

As Sister Thekla once said to me on the issue:

I do think that the 'gutting' of the Arts is part of our culture's problems. As one Orthodox bishop pointed out, Art is the repository of what is valuable in a culture (and prepares the sensibility for spirituality). Gut Art, and culture is diminished as well as the sense of the spiritual. This, I think, is a US problem -- Nazi Germany and the USSR banned, our culture instead makes Art non-existent (shallow). A note on the "museum" relocation of the spiritual in the USSR; my college professor used to travel to the USSR frequently, and moved in the underground Christian communities there. He noted that believers would visit museums (they did this to the monasteries as well), lag behind the tour group, pray and reverence the icons. His book "The Illuminating Icon" (Anthony Ugolnik) might be of interest to you.
​

This is another example of why I like your contributions in this forum. You bring up valid points and perspectives that I hadn't thought about before. Thank you for that.

Also, yes, I've heard Thekla talk about the art issue as well. Don't remember the exact words, but she did say art is important. What she said above is very compelling. I admire her greatly and having known her through here has been a blessing, and I only wish her intelligence, humility, and graciousness would rub off on me.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes, indeed.

I so wish I could style my own clothes

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Ah, I hadn't thought of that.

It is interesting to think about when you study the ways that Barbie tended to follow fashion trends of the day.

Wouldn't be surprised - and although I do think it'd be interesting to see them do some things just like they have with dolls having Ethiopian Orthodox dress, I do get cautious as to the reasons why they do so....and the long term impact.

Seriously, if someone - be it a kid or an adult - walked into a service wearing clothing that seemed identifical to the vestments worn/icons present in the sanctuary and yet it was done for fashion, what would be the reaction?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

This is another example of why I like your contributions in this forum. You bring up valid points and perspectives that I hadn't thought about before. Thank you for that.

Glad to know it's a blessing what is given out. Likewise to you as well, as I never would've thought about the OP until you brought it up. I actually emailed it to another Orthodox Bishop

Also, yes, I've heard Thekla talk about the art issue as well. Don't remember the exact words, but she did say art is important. What she said above is very compelling. I admire her greatly and having known her through here has been a blessing, and I only wish her intelligence, humility, and graciousness would rub off on me.

I'd say you rub off on one another well already

 

[Dorothea]

It is interesting to think about when you study the ways that Barbie tended to follow fashion trends of the day.

Wouldn't be surprised - and although I do think it'd be interesting to see them do some things just like they have with dolls having Ethiopian Orthodox dress, I do get cautious as to the reasons why they do so....and the long term impact.

Seriously, if someone - be it a kid or an adult - walked into a service wearing clothing that seemed identifical to the vestments worn/icons present in the sanctuary and yet it was done for fashion, what would be the reaction?

It would probably be quite a shock to folks. I don't know if that style in the OP will hit off or not. I've seen lots of odd stuff the models wear at those types of fashion shows, and I haven't seen regular folks walking around wearing them, thank goodness, because much of those fashions were outrageous. This one may be outrageous in the sense of what we've discussed about the icons and such, but I admit that the color, material, and designs are beautiful.

 

[Dorothea]

Glad to know it's a blessing what is given out. Likewise to you as well, as I never would've thought about the OP until you brought it up. I actually emailed it to another Orthodox Bishop

It will be interesting to read/hear his response.

I'd say you rub off on one another well already

You're very kind, friend.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It will be interesting to read/hear his response.



You're very kind, friend.

Got his response, which was very simple.

In his words:

yes, you were right; it was only a matter of time. Yet, this is a repeat of the Middle Ages when the wealthy wore golden icon crosses encrusted with jewels. Many, if not most, were probably not true followers of Yeshua. God will decide....


​

It was interesting finding out that some of the dress styles present in the lives of others were not always signs that something was negative - just as it's not always the case that someone who's rich is in sin (since the Lord commanded in I Timothy 6 for the rich to be generous as a way to honor the Lord with their wealth and commanded no favoritism per James 2). But for many, having more religious symbolism as garb to wear functioned as a means of showing where they may've been above certain laws/concepts - or they may've felt insecure in their eternal status....and had more access to things as a means of feeling secure (like folks praying the rosary or having religious objects in their home to feel more "Christian" even though they may not act like it).

Who knows..

Ultimately, I must say that a lot of the fashion styles are highly interesting. If nothing else, the fact that others want to walk in Byzantine fashion style is a bit of a compliment to the fact that the Byzantine Empire had an amazing sense of beauty/quality. I'm always particularly impressed with the fashion designs that the Byzantines displayed in their mosaics..and I suppose I shouldn't be surprised that Byzantine styles continue to inspire the fashion world today..as the Chanel Pre-Fall 2011 line was clearly inspired by the Empress Theodora.

Some examples of Byzantine fashion that stood out for me in the mosaics ..specifically, mosaics in Ravenna :

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Three Kings in interesting pant styles​

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The Empress Theodora and her Court​

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Close-up of Theodora and her amazing jewelry​

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Emperor Justinian looking stunning​

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Byzantine Women​

And now styles from the Fashion show mentioned earlier (and another slide show from 2010):

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Byzantine-inspired Fashion
​

You're very kind, friend.

Same to you...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We're not allowed to wear icons on shirts, clothes because they get washed and ruined and such...kinda like icon bumper stickers and such. From what I've read, they are not permitted.

But, those are the prettiest clothes designs and colors I've practically ever seen on models.

Technically,

Even folks like Michael Jackson have wore Byzantine-inspired clothing styles like the ones from the fashion show you shared earlier..if recalling many of his military jackets and the way he dressed (which was pretty engaging, IMHO) and the similarities it has to others today.​

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With the legalization of Christianity and the split of the churches that survived the crusades, the robes and military style clothing changed very little and survived over time and some even are worn in main steam societies today. ​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

It would probably be quite a shock to folks. I don't know if that style in the OP will hit off or not. I've seen lots of odd stuff the models wear at those types of fashion shows, and I haven't seen regular folks walking around wearing them, thank goodness, because much of those fashions were outrageous. This one may be outrageous in the sense of what we've discussed about the icons and such, but I admit that the color, material, and designs are beautiful.

Good points..

 

[Thekla]

Imo, commodification of anything = gutting of it.

Now we're included :o

(The dresses themselves are lovely; it's the icons/symbolism that I'm referring to ...)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Imo, commodification of anything = gutting of it.

Now we're included :o

In the times we live in, nothing is off limits..

(The dresses themselves are lovely; it's the icons/symbolism that I'm referring to ...)

Priestly robes are next, if icons can be used solely for a fashion statement. But then again, who knows what'll happen next.

 

[Thekla]

In the times we live in, nothing is off limits..
Priestly robes are next, if icons can be used solely for a fashion statement.

Yup - matter of time imo. As I've noticed that Madison Avenue will take anything that has "meaning" (preferring those things that stand against de-humanization), rework it, popularize it, and gut it of it's core.

This phenomenon has been amply demonstrated, and continuously repeated.
(You can track it w/anything you might find valuable, but some examples might be Punk/DiY/Grunge music (three 'stand against' movements, at least two with a strong social message) to the radio high-sale version (which does not 'create a sound', but borrows its features), and the surfeit of flannel shirts/Hot Topic in the Malls. Rap's evolution from a social statement (Last Poets as maybe a precusor , GrandMaster Flash, Public Enemy and some I can't recall) which tended to musical creativity grounded in traditional forms, to the 'use' of the emptied Rap 'form' in Kraft Cheese commercials. PopArt's ironically critical stance re: consumer culture to the appearance of soup can decorated writing tablets, etc. in dept stores (which was also an ironic victory for Pop). Some of this (haven't read the entire book) may be covered in Thomas Frank's The Conquest of Cool. (Frank's periodical, The Baffler, did cover some of this and made its own ironic statement on the phenomenon by selling Baffler T-Shirts under the banner, "Commodify Your Dissent")

But then again, who knows what'll happen next.

We can hope ....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yup - matter of time imo. As I've noticed that Madison Avenue will take anything that has "meaning" (preferring those things that stand against de-humanization), rework it, popularize it, and gut it of it's core.

This phenomenon has been amply demonstrated, and continuously repeated.

Why Madison Avenue in specific as opposed to other venues?

(You can track it w/anything you might find valuable, but some examples might be Punk/DiY/Grunge music (three 'stand against' movements, at least two with a strong social message) to the radio high-sale version (which does not 'create a sound', but borrows its features), and the surfeit of flannel shirts/Hot Topic in the Malls. Rap's evolution from a social statement (Last Poets as maybe a precusor , GrandMaster Flash, Public Enemy and some I can't recall) which tended to musical creativity grounded in traditional forms, to the 'use' of the emptied Rap 'form' in Kraft Cheese commercials. PopArt's ironically critical stance re: consumer culture to the appearance of soup can decorated writing tablets, etc. in dept stores (which was also an ironic victory for Pop). Some of this (haven't read the entire book) may be covered in Thomas Frank's The Conquest of Cool. (Frank's periodical, The Baffler, did cover some of this and made its own ironic statement on the phenomenon by selling Baffler T-Shirts under the banner, "Commodify Your Dissent")

It is interesting to see the eternal struggle that seems to occur with taking revolutionary ideas - and then bringing them down to be used for trivial purposes.

The book you noted seemed interesting - although I was curious as to what you thought was the most striking point in it thus far.
We can hope ....

 

[Thekla]

Why Madison Avenue in specific as opposed to other venues?

No - sort of as a shorthand for the phenomenon itself (and the id. of one of its chief practitioners)

It is interesting to see the eternal struggle that seems to occur with taking revolutionary ideas - and then bringing them down to be used for trivial purposes.

It also seems to a way for constant introduction of "new" as the old loses meaning; ie the gutting is essential for sustaining the cycle as it makes way for the new.

The book you noted seemed interesting - although I was curious as to what you thought was the most striking point in it thus far.

It's been years since I read it ... and for me, Frank is not the easiest writer to read; I'm more familiar w/ the (his and others) contributions to the journal. The book focuses (iirc) on this phenomenon in the 50s/60s, and the entry of counterculture participants into the executive suite (so largely an analysis of and in the baby boomer generation).

We can hope ....