Icons...

[Philothei]

No church has the authority to say what is holy or not holy. Only God can do that.

Ah I think the Bible disagrees with you:

1. Matthew 18:17
   If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Acts 9:31
25 “Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.[b] 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

The Holy Spirit is in the Church and working so in that sense how can say that it cannot say what is Holy? If that would be true then why are we adviced to seek the truth in the Church in the biblical references?

 

[Thekla]

If you can paint Christ as it fits you, you will present a Christ in your image and if your image doesn't line up with a holy, pure, perfect God-man, you have made it into an idol.

If you can write about Christ as it fits you, you will present a Christ in your image and if your image doesn't line up with a holy, pure, perfect God-man, you have made it into an idol.

Yet each Gospel writer wrote in their own style, selected events to recount, indicate a different interest (ex., Luke is especially taken with the healings); the personality of each Gospel writer is conserved in their accounts. Style, choice (word and event), "voice" ... Did they write an idol ?

 

[simonthezealot]

Direct is Jesus Christ; the personal relationship with God results in the recording of some of the experience of the illumining relationship/direct interaction with God.

So you seem to be saying that scripture is not a direct revelation from God, am I right?

Is a straight answer to hard to do do?

I asked a simple question, do you or do you not see scripture as a direct revelation from God?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Direct is Jesus Christ; the personal relationship with God results in the recording of some of the experience of the illumining relationship/direct interaction with God.

Is there a difference between your son kissing you and writing XXX on a Birthday Card to you ? How are they related ?

Rotherham) Psalms 2:12 Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish by the way, for soon might be kindled his anger,--
How happy are all who seek refuge in him!

Luke 7:45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

 

[Tzaousios]

So you seem to be saying that scripture is not a direct revelation from God, am I right?

Is a straight answer to hard to do do?

I asked a simple question, do you or do you not see scripture as a direct revelation from God?

I don't understand how you can make multiple, color-filled posts demanding that others do something when you have been extremely selective in your replies as well as cryptic in language. Shouldn't the door swing both ways?

 

[Thekla]

So you seem to be saying that scripture is not a direct revelation from God, am I right?

Is a straight answer to hard to do do?

I asked a simple question, do you or do you not see scripture as a direct revelation from God?

I have answered; revelation is received through relationship, the revelation is Jesus Christ.


Do you consider the Scripture to be the person of Jesus Christ ?
Do you have a relationship with the Scriptures ?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't understand how you can make multiple, color-filled posts demanding that others do something when you have been extremely selective in your replies as well as cryptic in language. Shouldn't the door swing both ways?

Jesus often spoke in cryptic language to the Jews

http://www.olivetree.com/cgi-bin/EnglishBible.htm

Isaiah 28:11 And with stammering/deriding lip and in another tongue, He shall speak to the people, this.

(NKJV) Matthew 13:10 And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why dost thou speak to them in parables?"
13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
35 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying "I will open My mouth in parables, I will utter things kept secret from the foundation of the world."

 

[bbbbbbb]

I don't understand how you can make multiple, color-filled posts demanding that others do something when you have been extremely selective in your replies as well as cryptic in language. Shouldn't the door swing both ways?

Speaking merely from an architectural standpoint, the vast majority of doors swing only one way and a number, such as pocket doors, don't swing at all.

 

[Tzaousios]

Jesus often spoke in cryptic language to the Jews

Please, do not give simonthezealot any ideas. I really do not think that is what he is doing, nor is it what I meant by "cryptic language."

 

[Philothei]

Can you please post scripture for this so I know which verse you are talking about.



If you can paint Christ as it fits you, you will present a Christ in your image and if your image doesn't line up with a holy, pure, perfect God-man, you have made it into an idol.

Acts 26:23
that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
Acts 28:28
“Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”
Romans 1:6
And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:9
[ No One Is Righteous ] What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.

1. Romans 3:29
   Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
   Romans 3:28-30 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter)

ROMANS 3:22
This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
Romans 11:11
[ Ingrafted Branches ] Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
Romans 15:10
Again, it says, “Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people.”

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

^ This is the most important of all ^

Where does it say in the Bible that we have to aquire the purest image of Christ to be able to depict it? So IOW they image you create in your mind when you think about Christ is abomination to God. That would mean that God is concerned more about the "image" of Him rather than His revealed Truth? Think what you are saying... Kids who indeed think of Christ as a man usually put him in their mind as a historical man with robes I bet you do the same as well we all have a "sketch" of him in our minds. Are we making an idol of Him every time we "think of Him"? If so where is the evidence that we should not. I see nothing in scripture that says we should not think of Christ as a man... while we pray or when we contemplate or talk about Him. Maybe then all the religious books (children's books included) should be burn for they are images of Christ... Again though where Christ or the Apostles said do not depict Him... They did not so your conclusion is totally inaccurate.

 

[Tzaousios]

Speaking merely from an architectural standpoint, the vast majority of doors swing only one way and a number, such as pocket doors, don't swing at all.

Okay, do not let it hit you on the way out, then.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Here you have, once again, manipulated the language that you use to describe iconography and Orthodox practice concerning them. By the term "appropriate," it is implied that ALL representations of Christ in Christian iconography is inappropriate.

I don't think iconography is Christian, so I will say all of it is inappropriate.

The Orthodox have not said that their desire is not to have an appropriate image of Christ. Also, the iconographic tradition has never sought to have anything less than to represent Christ appropriately.

I understand this and I find it scary they don't care about representing Christ accurately
.

Finally, it is not as if there exists for you an appropriate representation by which to compare and judge propriety. You do not let on to this explicitly in your replies. Such is the nature of presuppositions.

I don't have an icon who appropriate represent Christ because no such thing exist.

I am glad you have finally been forthwith about your presupposition concerning propriety. However, now you need to acknowledge that the Orthodox do not accept your iconoclastic, aniconic presupposition, and have given ample reason as to why they do this.

I don't expect them to accept what I'm saying, but it doesn't stop me from trying to tell them the truth.

Also, if you admit that the prooftexts do not deny or confirm iconography, why even use them? It only provides further evidence that you want others to conform to your particularly Evangelical Protestant, iconoclastic, aniconic take on those passages, and not that you are "only repeating what the Bible plainly says." It is time to dispense with that rhetorical trope.

I'm using them to show that there is no way to represent Christ accurately by an image from those verses.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Ah I think the Bible disagrees with you:

1. Matthew 18:17
   If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Acts 9:31
25 “Now I know that none of you among whom I have gone about preaching the kingdom will ever see me again. 26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God. 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God,[a] which he bought with his own blood.[b] 29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them. 31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

The Holy Spirit is in the Church and working so in that sense how can say that it cannot say what is Holy? If that would be true then why are we adviced to seek the truth in the Church in the biblical references?

Nothing you posted goes against what I said. It tells you to go to the church, but it doesn't say the church can go beyond what the Word of God is saying.

 

[JesusFreak78]

If you can write about Christ as it fits you, you will present a Christ in your image and if your image doesn't line up with a holy, pure, perfect God-man, you have made it into an idol.

Yet each Gospel writer wrote in their own style, selected events to recount, indicate a different interest (ex., Luke is especially taken with the healings); the personality of each Gospel writer is conserved in their accounts. Style, choice (word and event), "voice" ... Did they write an idol ?

I agree with you that if someone writes about Christ as it fits you, you present a Christ in your own image which is to make an idol. When we're talking about the gospel we are talking about God breathed scriptures which men of God wrote this through the inspiration and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by bbbbbbb Speaking merely from an architectural standpoint, the vast majority of doors swing only one way and a number, such as pocket doors, don't swing at all.

Okay, do not let it hit you on the way out, then.

Some doors open inward, some outward, and some can swing both ways

Matt 24:33 "Thus also whenever ye may be being seing all these, be ye knowing! that nigh is upon doors
[Mark 13:29]

Revelation 3:8 I am aware of thee the works.
Behold! I have given in view of thee a door having been opened, which no one can shut/lock it.
That little thou are having power/strength and thou keep of Me the word and not thou disown the name of Me

 

[Thekla]

I agree with you that if someone writes about Christ as it fits you, you present a Christ in your own image which is to make an idol. When we're talking about the gospel we are talking about God breathed scriptures which men of God wrote this through the inspiration and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

I don't believe in possession or automatic writing.

God interacted with these writers in direct relationship and illumined them; God did not write the Gospels for the Gospel writers. They write differently.

 

[simonthezealot]

I have answered; revelation is received through relationship, the revelation is Jesus Christ.

So is your answer NO? scripture is not a revelation given by God?

Do you consider the Scripture to be the person of Jesus Christ ?
Do you have a relationship with the Scriptures ?

No
No

See how easy yes and no's are?

do you or do you not see scripture as a direct revelation from God?
OR
do you or do you not see scripture as a divine revelation from God?

 

[Rick Otto]

I don't think simon was asking for an equivalency, Thekla. I think all he was asking for was an affirmation that scripture (revealed truth) is revealed by God.

It's probably no slippery slope to go ahead & risk a "yes".

Even Protestants, if only like stopped clocks, can be right twice a day.

 

[JesusFreak78]

Acts 26:23
that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
Acts 28:28
“Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!”
Romans 1:6
And you also are among those Gentiles who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
Romans 3:9
[ No One Is Righteous ] What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.

1. Romans 3:29
   Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
   Romans 3:28-30 (in Context) Romans 3 (Whole Chapter)

ROMANS 3:22
This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,
Romans 11:11
[ Ingrafted Branches ] Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
Romans 15:10
Again, it says, “Rejoice, you Gentiles, with his people.”

1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

^ This is the most important of all ^

Where does it say in the Bible that we have to aquire the purest image of Christ to be able to depict it? So IOW they image you create in your mind when you think about Christ is abomination to God. That would mean that God is concerned more about the "image" of Him rather than His revealed Truth? Think what you are saying... Kids who indeed think of Christ as a man usually put him in their mind as a historical man with robes I bet you do the same as well we all have a "sketch" of him in our minds. Are we making an idol of Him every time we "think of Him"? If so where is the evidence that we should not. I see nothing in scripture that says we should not think of Christ as a man... while we pray or when we contemplate or talk about Him. Maybe then all the religious books (children's books included) should be burn for they are images of Christ... Again though where Christ or the Apostles said do not depict Him... They did not so your conclusion is totally inaccurate.

None of these verses speaks against what I said.

When I think about Christ I don't think about an image of Him, I think about how I can please Him more, how I can learn more of His revealed Word to us in the bible and how I can honor Him through my actions and words.

 

[Thekla]

So is your answer NO? scripture is not a revelation given by God?

No
No

See how easy yes and no's are?

do you or do you not see scripture as a direct revelation from God?

You want everything boiled down ?

A direct revelation would be God writing.
A direct revelation would be God interacting with someone.

The Scriptures are the record of a direct revelation.