Icons...

[simonthezealot]

Assuming that the this was the purpose of the calf, it was based on their vain imagination. Icons are based on the Incarnation. Again completely different in their source. One is from mans mind, the other is from God's revelation.

Not really accurate on the icon, if you believe the Isaiah account of how the Lord appeared.

 

[Dorothea]

I said book and jewelry, it is not the book that is holy rather the truth in the words therein.

which is why it's called the Holy Bible. Therefore, we venerate that which is holy of God.

Acupuncture is a practice of Taoism, a false religion.
what doth light have to do with darkness?

The religion of American individualism seems to have enveloped you. It's not Christianity either.

Just because someone takes herbs or drinks herbal tea or has needles put in pressure points, they are now Taoist. Do you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

 

[Kristos]

Not really accurate on the icon, if you believe the Isaiah account of how the Lord appeared.

I'm not following.

 

[Dorothea]

Btw, Simon, you didn't answer my question. Is my acupuncturist worshiping me when he bows to me?

 

[simonthezealot]

Btw, Simon, you didn't answer my question. Is my acupuncturist worshiping me when he bows to me?

who knows, I can tell you he is incorporating you into a service function of his religion though, so together you are inadvertently worshiping a false god with him.
But no traditionally their bow means namaste or god be with you, he is wishing his god's be with you.

 

[Dorothea]

who knows, I can tell you he is incorporating you into a service function of his religion though, so together you are inadvertently worshiping a false god with him.
But no traditionally their bow means namaste or god be with you, he is wishing his god's be with you.

I see. And what does it mean when Europeans and people at my church kiss each other on each cheek? And those that bow to an audience after a performance?

 

[Tzaousios]

who knows, I can tell you he is incorporating you into a service function of his religion though, so together you are inadvertently worshiping a false god with him.
But no traditionally their bow means namaste or god be with you, he is wishing his god's be with you.

Do you even venture outside the four walls of your house?

 

[simonthezealot]

I see. And what does it mean when Europeans and people at my church kiss each other on each cheek? And those that bow to an audience after a performance?

A kiss on the cheek is following Paul's instruction of greeting one another with a holy kiss. The bow to an audience is acknowledgment to their acceptance.
C'mon this stuff is old school failed apple and orange apologetics.

 

[simonthezealot]

Do you even venture outside the four walls of your house?

Do you mind abstaining from personal comments against me?

 

[simonthezealot]

I'm not following.

Your icons picture of Jesus is nothing like the physical description given of Jesus in the book of Isaiah.

 

[Dorothea]

who knows, I can tell you he is incorporating you into a service function of his religion though, so together you are inadvertently worshiping a false god with him.
But no traditionally their bow means namaste or god be with you, he is wishing his god's be with you.

Well, to help you out, here's some info on what bowing means in Asia:

Bows are the traditional greeting in East Asia, particularly in Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and Vietnam. However, bowing is not reserved only for greetings. Bowing is a gesture of respect. Different bows are used for apologies and gratitude, to express different emotions, humility, sincerity, remorse, or deference, and in various traditional arts and religious ceremonies. Bowing has been a way to show respect to people for a long time in East Asia.

Bows are commonly used in greeting, both when meeting and when departing.

Bowing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And knowing that my doc was showing respect and bowing because I was departing, I bowed back and said good bye to him at my last visit.

 

[Dorothea]

Your icons picture of Jesus is nothing like the physical description given of Jesus in the book of Isaiah.

Why do you think that is?

 

[Tzaousios]

Do you mind abstaining from personal comments against me?

Well, my other comments have been specifically about the method which you employ. You have been quite selective in how you reply.

My previous comment had precisely to do with what you had said, although you attempt rhetorically to turn it into "personal comments against me."

It would seem that constantin paranoia that someone is trying to get one to worship their pagan gods, or that one might inadvertently being participating in some kind of pagan worship ritual, would render one unable to journey outside the four walls of the house. It must be a very sad way to live life.

 

[Tzaousios]

Your icons picture of Jesus is nothing like the physical description given of Jesus in the book of Isaiah.

How so, and would you even admit it if they did look like him, because they are Eastern Orthodox iconography?

As you have repeated several times to others, just because one says it does not make it true in reality.

 

[Dorothea]

And to also clear up your, Simon, misconceptions on acupuncture:

For many people when they begin to think about acupuncture it can all appear quite foreign. Outside of the problems people generally have considering needles placed into their body, concepts such as Yin and Yang, Qi, and the “meridians” often mislead people into thinking acupuncture is a sort of pseudoscience alternative medicine. And if you add in another common misunderstanding – that acupuncture is strongly tied to a particular religion like Taoism, you end with the impression that acupuncture is foreign to us in concepts, religious views, and philosophy. Consequently, many people may avoid treatment because the whole concept of what acupuncture is and what it offers us is lost.

Chinese Medicine and the practice of Acupuncture is not a religion, requires no religious beliefs on behalf of the practitioner or the patient, and is not tied to a particular religion or belief system. As it comes from China, it does have a basis in Taoist and Buddhist philosophies. But there is nothing particularly Buddhist or Taoist about it – it’s just a reflection of the culture from which the medicine sprang. The concepts like Yin and Yang, and Qi, are just that – concepts. They are phrases used to explain phenomena that we as natural human beings experience, regardless of culture, race, or belief systems.

Is Acupuncture Chinese?, A Pseudoscience?, A Religion? | Multiple Health Tips Ltd

 

[simonthezealot]

How so, and would you even admit it if they did look like him, because they are Eastern Orthodox iconography?

As you have repeated several times to others, just because one says it does not make it true in reality.

Why do you keep taking personal potshots at me? just curious?

TZ it's simple I can read the plain unspectacular description in Isaiah and compare it to the beautiful rendition in EO iconography. Not rocket science.

 

[Dorothea]

Simon, with so many mistaken understandings of these things for which I posted, it would seem that you may also be misunderstanding the Scriptures on images, which were used in the Jewish Temples, and then in the Christian Churches.

 

[simonthezealot]

My previous comment had precisely to do with what you had said, although you attempt rhetorically to turn it into "personal comments against me."

I don't really care, i just wonder why you're so incessantly doing it? it sends us down rabbit trails and off topic.

 

[simonthezealot]

Simon, with so many mistaken understandings of these things for which I posted, it would seem that you may also be misunderstanding the Scriptures on images, which were used in the Jewish Temples, and then in the Christian Churches.

Beautiful, using scripture show me that my view is wrong.

 

[Dorothea]

Beautiful, using scripture show me that my view is wrong.

I thought that was already shown and discussed many pages back?

And we posted all the pertinent information on icons and what they mean:

http://www.waysha.com/faq.htm

Here's some more info:

He is the image [Greek: ikon] of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
— Col 1:15

That … which we have heard and seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and touched with our hands … we proclaim also to you.
— 1 John 1:1-3

Christianity is the revelation not only of the Word of God but also the Image of God.
— Leonid Ouspensky

We are the only creatures that make visual records of the things that matter to us. When we meet friends or relatives after a time apart, we not only tell what has happened since our last meeting, we also share photos. At home, similar photos are on display in photo albums and on computer screens.

It’s a trait that seems to reach very nearly to Adam and Eve. The prehistoric paintings found in the Chauvet Cave in Vallon-Pont-d’Arc, France, made about 28,000 BC, are among the witnesses to this dimension of being human.

It is not surprising that those who saw Christ took pains to recall what he looked like.

“I have seen a great many portraits of the Savior, and of Peter and Paul, which have been preserved up to our time,” Eusebius recorded in his History of the Church early in the fourth century. While visiting Caesarea Philippi in Galilee, he also noted seeing a centuries-old bronze statue of the Savior outside the house of the woman who had been cured of incessant bleeding by Christ. Eusebius’s witness is all the more compelling as he was one of those who regarded religious images as belonging more to the pagan world than to the Church.

The first icon, according to ancient accounts, was made when King Abgar of Osroene, dying of leprosy, sent a message begging Jesus to visit him in Edessa, a city in what is now Turkey, and cure him. Hurrying toward Jerusalem and his crucifixion, Christ instead sent King Abgar a healing gift. He pressed his face against a linen cloth, making the square of fabric bear the image of his face. The miraculous icon remained in Edessa until the tenth century, when it was brought to Constantinople. Then, after the city was sacked by the Crusaders in 1204, it disappeared. We know it only through copies. Known as “Not Made by Human Hands” or the “Holy Face,” versions of the icon have often been reproduced down to our own day.

In the western Church, a similar story is associated with the name of Veronica, one of the women who comforted Jesus as he was bearing the cross. She offered him a cloth to wipe the blood and sweat from his face and afterward found she had received a miraculous image. In Jerusalem, a building along the Via Dolorosa associated with Veronica is today home to a community of the Little Sisters of Jesus who, appropriately, support themselves by selling icon prints mounted on olive wood.

The Evangelist and physician Luke is regarded as the first person to paint an icon. Saint Luke is credited with three icons of Mary, in one case using the wood of the table where Christ’s mother and Saint John ate their meals.

The best known is “Our Lady of Tenderness” in which the face of the child Jesus is pressing his face against his mother’s. It was given in 1155 to the recently baptized Church in Russia by Patriarch of Constantinople; because it was kept in the cathedral in Vladimir, it came to came to be known as the Vladimir Mother of God.

Another, the “Hodigitria,” meaning “She Who Shows the Way,” has a more formal arrangement, showing Mary presenting her young son to the viewer.

Finally Luke is credited with painting an icon of Mary in prayer, with outstretched arms, an image sometimes seen in Orthodox churches in the sanctuary above the altar. The placing of the icon near the altar serves as a reminder that Mary became the bridge linking heaven and earth.

Ancient icons often bear layer upon layer of paint, as later iconographers renewed by overpainting work that had become too darkened by candle smoke or too damaged with the passage of time. It is only since the beginning of the twentieth century that icon restorers found safe ways to remove overpainting and reveal the original icon. Perhaps at the foundation level of one or another ancient icon are brush strokes that were made by the hand of Saint Luke. Or perhaps not. Nearly all ancient icons were destroyed during times of persecution in the first three centuries of the Christian era or during the iconoclastic periods in the eighth and ninth centuries, while many others have been lost to fires, earthquakes and vandalism. What can be said with confidence is that icons have come down to us that faithfully bear witness to the work of iconographers of the early generations of the Church.

Even though most early icons have been lost or destroyed, it is surprising how many Christian images from the early Church have survived, most notably in the Roman catacombs and burial houses, but also in many other places, from Asia Minor to Spain. Mainly these are wall paintings — simple and sober images, made with few brush strokes and a narrow range of colors, with such subjects as Christ carrying a lamb, the three young men praising God from within a furnace, the raising of Lazarus, the ark of Noah, the eucharistic meal, and such symbols as fish, lamb and peacock. The catacombs bear witness that, from the Church’s early days, wherever Christians prayed, they sought to create a visual environment that reminded them of the Kingdom of God and helped them to pray.

Many early icons of a more developed style survive in Rome, though they are chiefly mosaics and have a monumental aspect, a type of public Christian art that only became possible in the fourth century, after the age of persecution ended.

In one of Rome’s earliest major churches, Santa Maria Maggiore, there are mosaics from the fifth century, but, as they are high up on the walls, the average visitor will need binoculars to see the detail. One mosaic shows Abraham and Sarah with their three angelic guests — an event Christian theologians came to recognize as an early revelation of the Holy Trinity. The large and vivid mosaic icons above and behind the altar, however, are easy to see and deeply moving; at the center Christ is shown crowning his mother.

Among other Roman churches that contain impressive examples of iconography from the first millennium of Christianity are Saints Cosmas and Damian, Saint John Lateran, Santa Sabina, Santa Costanza, San Clemente, Santa Prassede, Santa Agnese fuori le Mura, Santa Maria in Trastevere, and San Paolo fuori le Mura.

The most significant collection of early icons to survive into our time is at the desert monastery of Saint Catherine at the foot of Mount Sinai deep inside the Sinai desert. Here we find icon portraits of Christ and the apostle Peter, both dated by art historians as having been made in the sixth century. Both have an almost photographic realism. The style has much in common with Roman and Egyptian portraiture of classical times. These are probably similar to the images mentioned by Eusebius.

Whether or not any original icons from the apostolic age have survived, one is impressed to see how, generation after generation, devout iconographers have sought to make faithful copies of earlier icons, a process that continues to the present day. Thus images of Christ and the leading apostles are recognizable from century to century despite occasional changes in style. We know, for example, that Peter had thick curly hair while Paul was bald. One of the earliest images to survive, a bronze medallion of Saints Peter and Paul, both seen in profile, was made in the second or third century; it is now part of the collection of the Vatican Museum in Rome.

Most important, the memory of Christ’s face is preserved: a man in early middle age, with brown eyes, a piercing gaze, straight dark brown hair reaching down to his shoulders, a short beard, olive skin, and regular features of the Semitic type.

Just as in our own time there is controversy about icons, so was there dispute in the early Church. Early opponents of icons included Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, Minucius Felix and Lactancius. Eusebius was not alone in fearing that the art of the pagan world carried with it the spirit of the pagan world, while others objected on the basis of Old Testament restrictions of imagery. Christianity was, after all, born in a world in which many artists were employed doing religious, political and secular work. Idolatry was a normal part of pagan religious life. Thus we find that in the early centuries, in the many areas of controversy among Christians, there was division on questions of religious art and its place in spiritual life. It is instructive to notice that some of those who were reluctant to accept that Christ was God incarnate were also resistant to icons.

At the heart of all theological disputes, from that time into our own day, is the burning question: Who is Jesus Christ?

Some argued that Jesus was simply a man of such exemplary goodness that he was adopted by God as a son. Going further with this idea, others believed God so overwhelmed Jesus the Galilean that his manhood was gradually absorbed into divinity. Then there were those who argued that Jesus merely appeared to be a person of human flesh, but he was in reality pure spirit. Because the flesh is subject to passions, illness and decay, they argued that God could never become incarnate. Those who held this belief rejected Jesus’s death on the cross — a being of pure spirit is deathless — and thus also rejected the resurrection. A being who couldn’t die had no need of being raised from death.

For rest of article:
http://www.speroforum.com/a/53999/Praying-With-Icons-A-Short-History-of-Icons--excerpt

And this article:

http://www.antiochian.org/node/16913