Icons...

[Tzaousios]

If i am heretical to the church that promotes icon doctrines I am okay with that, because I think the icons are heretic to the written word of God.

Are you sure it is not because you wish to play the victim and justify it by appealing to your choice to apply Old Testament law against pagan idols to Christian iconography?

 

[Dorothea]

Athenagoras condemns the use of images, and he criticizes a pagan argument used to justify the veneration of images, an argument that Roman Catholics also use, in (A Plea for the Christians, 17-18)

Ok, I read over it. Can you tell me what this has to do with holy icons? We already know that worshiping false gods/idols is wrong. DUH. Still...what does his getting on the pagans for their sculptures or paintings or whatever, have to do with Christian images, and also images used in the Jewish Temples?

 

[simonthezealot]

Are you sure it is not because you wish to play the victim and justify it by appealing to your choice to apply Old Testament law against pagan idols to Christian iconography?

Victim? lol.

OT law? both the law and the prophets hang on the 2 greatest commands my friend..

And still we can see God has no taste for things like this.

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]And the rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can neither see, nor hear, nor walk: [Revelation 9:20][/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[simonthezealot]

Ok, I read over it. Can you tell me what this has to do with holy icons? We already know that worshiping false gods/idols is wrong. DUH. Still...what does his getting on the pagans for their sculptures or paintings or whatever, have to do with Christian images, and also images used in the Jewish Temples?

venerate an icon=worship an idol

 

[Tzaousios]

Victim? lol.

OT law? both the law and the prophets hang on the 2 greatest commands my friend..

And still we can see God has no taste for things like this.

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]And the rest of mankind, who were not killed with these plagues, repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and the idols of gold, and of silver, and of brass, and of stone, and of wood; which can neither see, nor hear, nor walk: [Revelation 9:20][/SIZE][/FONT]

No, you think that God is talking about Christian iconography, or want the text to be describing Christian iconography, so you assume your presupposition is supported by it. I understand how this method works, trust me.

 

[Tzaousios]

venerate an icon=worship an idol

Ha! So is this "only repeating what the Bible plainly/clearly says"?

 

[Dylan Michael]

venerate an icon=worship an idol

No it doesn't...

 

[Dorothea]

venerate an icon=worship an idol

There are two problems with your idea on this. Icons are not idols or false gods. Second, we don't worship wood. We are Christians. We worship the Trinity.

Your idea causes me to believe one of two things:

You intentionally want the Scriptures to say what you believe to stick it to the RCC and EO's,

or

You are ignorant to what the Scriptures truly say on this issue.



Also, if you are going that route, you should also say we worship the Bible and Crosses because we venerate those too, and kiss them as well. All holy things of God, we kiss and venerate.

Btw, my acupuncturist bows to me every time he says good bye to me. With your ideology, he's worshiping me.

 

[simonthezealot]

No, you think that God is talking about Christian iconography, or want the text to be describing Christian iconography, so you assume your presupposition is supported by it. I understand how this method works, trust me.

No he is speaking of idols made by hand, the Israelites made the gold calf as a visual symbol of Yahweh and yet we know this angered him greatly.
Same discussion applies here in Revelation.

 

[Dorothea]

Maybe this will help you understand where we're coming from. How you revere and feel about the Bible, we feel the same way about all God's holy things, including the Bible. The difference is that we don't revere it with just our mind, but with outward acts of reverence.

 

[Tzaousios]

No he is speaking of idols made by hand, the Israelites made the gold calf as a visual symbol of Yahweh and yet we know this angered him greatly.
Same discussion applies here in Revelation.

Nope, you are applying the method I described above. You take your prooftexts, see "made with hands" and "idols," and then declare that it speaks to the presupposition you have assumed. This is that veneration of icons=idolatry, therefore Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are idolators and heretics. Either this or you take the shortcut, which is the presupposition that Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are idolators and heretics because they are not non-catholics.

 

[simonthezealot]

There are two problems with your idea on this. Icons are not idols or false gods. Second, we don't worship wood. We are Christians. We worship the Trinity.

You bow kiss light candles to these icons...Call it what you want but regardless it is undue adoration to a man-made object.

Your idea causes me to believe one of two things:

You intentionally want the Scriptures to say what you believe to stick it to the RCC and EO's,

or

You are ignorant to what the Scriptures truly say on this issue.

I am not forcing scripture to say what it doesn't, I am using scripture to show you that your practice is un-scriptural.

I am certainly not the one who is ignorant to scripture my dear sister

Also, if you are going that route, you should also say we worship the Bible and Crosses because we venerate those too, and kiss them as well. All holy things of God, we kiss and venerate.

The book and the jewelry are not holy things of God, so if you are doing this then yes I would agree.

Btw, my acupuncturist bows to me every time he says good bye to me. With your ideology, he's worshiping me.

So you involve yourself in the activities of counterfeit religions?

 

[simonthezealot]

Nope, you are applying the method I described above. You take your prooftexts, see "made with hands" and "idols," and then declare that it speaks to the presupposition you have assumed. This is that veneration of icons=idolatry, therefore Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are idolators and heretics. Either this or you take the shortcut, which is the presupposition that Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are idolators and heretics because they are not non-catholics.

The golden calf situation was identical to the practice of icons.

 

[Tzaousios]

The golden calf situation was identical to the practice of icons.

How so, other than that "God says so," even though it is only you that says so? Also, what about your method as described above?

 

[Dorothea]

You bow kiss light candles to these icons...Call it what you want but regardless it is undue adoration to a man-made object.


I am not forcing scripture to say what it doesn't, I am using scripture to show you that your practice is un-scriptural.

I am certainly not the one who is ignorant to scripture my dear sister



The book and the jewelry are not holy things of God, so if you are doing this then yes I would agree.



So you involve yourself in the activities of counterfeit religions?

Bowing is an outward display of respect, honor, and reverence. Not just what you think it means.

As far as the Bible. You're the one that said it's the Word of God and God breathed. That would mean it is holy, yes?


Did I say I practice Hinduism or Shinto or anything? I go for medical reasons, if you must know. Don't tell me you are in that same Western mindset that any Eastern medicine is fake crowd, are you? I'm sorry if you think that. Because natural ways of healing are not prohibited by God, and can work well with Western medicine. Anyhow, that's off topic. I was speaking of him bowing to me. Does that mean he is worshiping me?

 

[Kristos]

The golden calf situation was identical to the practice of icons.

Honestly, it's not even close. The first and obvious difference is that Christ was not incarnate as calf, He was made MAN and has revealed Himself to us. Second, the golden calf was created apart from the leadership, and was immediately condemned by the leadership when discovered. Icons on the other hand have been fully approved by the whole Church as meet and right. Third, the golden calf was worshiped, while icon are not worshiped. There are probably more differences, but that seems like enough for now. The two cannot be equated in anyway - there is no parallel or commonality between them. I would have to double check, but I don't think even the iconoclast used this argument.

 

[Dorothea]

Honestly, it's not even close. The first and obvious difference is that Christ was not incarnate as calf, He was made MAN and has revealed Himself to us. Second, the golden calf was created apart from the leadership, and was immediately condemned by the leadership when discovered. Icons on the other hand have been fully approved by the whole Church as meet and right. Third, the golden calf was worshiped, while icon are not worshiped. There are probably more differences, but that seems like enough for now. The two cannot be equated in anyway - there is no parallel or commonality between them. I would have to double check, but I don't think even the iconoclast used this argument.

Well, what the 7th Ecumenical Council said to those who were against the images in the Church seems quite straight forward:

"The holy Synod cried out: So we all believe, we all are so minded, we all give our consent and have signed. This is the faith of the Apostles, this is the faith of the orthodox, this is the faith which hath made firm the whole world. Believing in one God, to be celebrated in Trinity, we salute the honourable images! Those who do not so hold, let them be anathema. Those who do not thus think, let them be driven far away from the Church. For we follow the most ancient legislation of the Catholic Church. We keep the laws of the Fathers. We anathematize those who add anything to or take anything away from the Catholic (Universal) Church. We anathematize the introduced novelty of the revilers of Christians. We salute the venerable images. We place under anathema those who do not do this. Anathema to them who presume to apply to the venerable images the things said in Holy Scripture about idols. Anathema to those who do not salute the holy and venerable images. Anathema to those who call the sacred images idols. Anathema to those who say that Christians resort to the sacred images as to gods. Anathema to those who say that any other delivered us from idols except Christ our God. Anathema to those who dare to say that at any time the Catholic Church received idols".

 

[simonthezealot]

Honestly, it's not even close. The first and obvious difference is that Christ was not incarnate as calf, He was made MAN and has revealed Himself to us. Second, the golden calf was created apart from the leadership, and was immediately condemned by the leadership when discovered. Icons on the other hand have been fully approved by the whole Church as meet and right. Third, the golden calf was worshiped, while icon are not worshiped. There are probably more differences, but that seems like enough for now. The two cannot be equated in anyway - there is no parallel or commonality between them. I would have to double check, but I don't think even the iconoclast used this argument.

The key commonality has escaped your comments, both were created as a visual symbol or representation of the Lord.

IT ANGERED HIM.

 

[simonthezealot]

Bowing is an outward display of respect, honor, and reverence. Not just what you think it means.

As far as the Bible. You're the one that said it's the Word of God and God breathed. That would mean it is holy, yes?


Did I say I practice Hinduism or Shinto or anything? I go for medical reasons, if you must know. Don't tell me you are in that same Western mindset that any Eastern medicine is fake crowd, are you? I'm sorry if you think that. Because natural ways of healing are not prohibited by God, and can work well with Western medicine. Anyhow, that's off topic. I was speaking of him bowing to me. Does that mean he is worshiping me?

I said book and jewelry, it is not the book that is holy rather the truth in the words therein.
Acupuncture is a practice of Taoism, a false religion.
what doth light have to do with darkness?

 

[Kristos]

The key commonality has escaped your comments, both were created as a visual symbol or representation of the Lord.

IT ANGERED HIM.

Assuming that the this was the purpose of the calf, it was based on their vain imagination. Icons are based on the Incarnation. Again completely different in their source. One is from mans mind, the other is from God's revelation.