Icons...

[JesusFreak78]

Except the Scriptures and history do show the Church was One in mind and spirit. They were all believing the same thing. It still remains today due to Christ's promise. As far as those outside of His Church, the Holy Spirit certainly works where He wishes.

Are you referring to the Church as in the body of Christ or the church as in the EO church?

 

[JesusFreak78]

Sola Scriptura is nonbiblical - heretical.
Against infant baptism - heretical from 16th century.
Chiliaism - heretical teaching from 4th century.
Against the belief that Mary is the Mother of God - Christ God the Second Person of the Trinity - heretical.
Total Depravity - heretical.
Believing one only needs their minds/intellect and "spirit" and not the whole body to worship God - gnosticism.
Bible Alone - man-made tradition - strange doctrine warned about in the Bible.
Christomonism - distorted beliefs due to distortion of the Trinity.
Pre-trib Rapture - man-made, dangerous doctrine.
Believing images are idol worship or not permitted - pagan and islamic beliefs. Not Christian.

There are many things some Protestant communities have adopted that are heretical. So, the fact that you think something is heretical from the Church of Christ that has preserved His teachings since the beginning, really doesn't hold much water to us.

Heretical post!

 

[JesusFreak78]

If icons and images are Heretical, then why do all of the ancient churches (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox) use them?

Just because some are using them doesn't mean they aren't heretical.

 

[Dorothea]

Heretical post!

I hope we don't continue with this throwing "heretic" and "heretical" around all over the place. The point I was making is that just because we don't say "that's heretical" every time somebody posts something we consider it to be, is out of respect for the rules and we don't want to have to get into heated arguments all the time that end up badly.

Hopefully, we won't have to bring this up again - the heresy talks.

 

[Kristos]

If i am heretical to the church that promotes icon doctrines I am okay with that, because I think the icons are heretic to the written word of God.

Isn't that contrary to scripture? If you travel your 'own way', then where are you going?

The written word of God, yes, but of course this has always been part of the Church so this was central to the resolution of the controversy. Also central was the fact that the Word of God is no longer simply expressed in the written word, but through the Incarnation. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. The conclusion of the controversy was essentially that rejecting an icon of the Word Incarnate is tantamount to rejecting the Incarnation itself because the Word became flesh. There is no way to express this in words alone. Icons are an expression of this mystery which cannot be expressed by words. Denying icons and their expression of the Incarnation takes away from the Incarnation and thus takes away from the Faith - which is against scripture.

 

[Dorothea]

Are you referring to the Church as in the body of Christ or the church as in the EO church?

The Body of Christ is the Church - the EOC. Now, having said that, those who aren't part of the EOC, does not mean that they are lost or do not have a relationship with God, nor lack the Holy Spirit. We know where the Holy Spirit God is in the Church, we do not know where He is elsewhere.

 

[JesusFreak78]

The Body of Christ is the Church - the EOC. Now, having said that, those who aren't part of the EOC, does not mean that they are lost or do not have a relationship with God, nor lack the Holy Spirit. We know where the Holy Spirit God is in the Church, we do not know where He is elsewhere.

In biblical terms the Church is the body of Christ and not the EO church. Neither is it the Catholic church or any protestant church. What we like to call church is an assembly, a group of believers gathered together.

 

[simonthezealot]

Yep, yours is the church that did not defend and proclaim Truth or shed its blood since it did not exist.

(The saints-the elect-the ecclesia-the called out ones) have always existed, both inside and outside of all the early churches.
Those whom laid down their life are surely part of Christ's church.

Let's please get back to the OP.

 

[Kristos]

In biblical terms the Church is the body of Christ and not the EO church. Neither is it the Catholic church or any protestant church. What we like to call church is an assembly, a group of believers gathered together.

When believers gather as Church, then they become the body of Christ, but this doesn't mean anyone who gathers together. According the creed we on this forum believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. This can mean a lot of things, but certainly it narrows down the potential. In Acts we are told that new believers held steadfast the following:

THE Teaching of the THE Apostles
THE Communion
THE Breaking of Bread
THE Prayers

so unless the gathering includes these four requirements of scripture, then it's not really a gather of "the Church" and therefore is not the body of Christ. And yes, that mean no communion - no gathering.

Back to icons. THE teaching of THE apostles is preserved in the Church, just as Paul told Timothy to teach a successor, the Church in general has followed this command, passing THE teaching from generation to generation as guided by the Holy Spirit and in keeping with the other tenants listed above. This did not exclude the Church from controversy, far from it, but rather each and every controversy was faced accordingly. The controversy surrounding icons emerged and was tested. In the end the Church that gathered as the one, holy, apostolic Church resolved the controversy in favor of icons. This is history. There is no new controversy here. The Church has spoken.

Now, if you wanted to discussion which icons are accepted, that would be different. There are some icons if painted, would not really be icons according to the Church and unfortunately, as file will soon point out, there are some heretical icons out there, even in churches, but this is a completely different issue.

 

[Kristos]

Just because some are using them doesn't mean they aren't heretical.

True, for something to be heretical it really needs to be declared by the Church, which historically has been done by ecumenical council.

 

[sunlover1]

True, for something to be heretical it really needs to be declared by the Church, which historically has been done by ecumenical council.

Or declared TO "the church" works just as well:

17Now in this that I declare to you I praise you not, that you come together not for the better, but for the worse. 18For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. 19For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you

 

[Dorothea]

In biblical terms the Church is the body of Christ and not the EO church. Neither is it the Catholic church or any protestant church. What we like to call church is an assembly, a group of believers gathered together.

It is both those called out and also the foundation of Truth. So it is both the people and the building for which those gathered come together in one mind and spirit and worship the Lord in His House.

History shows who and what the NT Church is. And indeed it was both the RCC and the EOC at the beginning until the Great Schism, where the EOC believes the RCC broke off.

 

[Fotina]

(The saints-the elect-the ecclesia-the called out ones) have always existed, both inside and outside of all the early churches.
Those whom laid down their life are surely part of Christ's church.

Let's please get back to the OP.

So where is the early church with a continuous history, or any before the reformation, that practiced iconoclasm?

 

[Dorothea]

When believers gather as Church, then they become the body of Christ, but this doesn't mean anyone who gathers together. According the creed we on this forum believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic church. This can mean a lot of things, but certainly it narrows down the potential. In Acts we are told that new believers held steadfast the following:

THE Teaching of the THE Apostles
THE Communion
THE Breaking of Bread
THE Prayers

so unless the gathering includes these four requirements of scripture, then it's not really a gather of "the Church" and therefore is not the body of Christ. And yes, that mean no communion - no gathering.

Back to icons. THE teaching of THE apostles is preserved in the Church, just as Paul told Timothy to teach a successor, the Church in general has followed this command, passing THE teaching from generation to generation as guided by the Holy Spirit and in keeping with the other tenants listed above. This did not exclude the Church from controversy, far from it, but rather each and every controversy was faced accordingly. The controversy surrounding icons emerged and was tested. In the end the Church that gathered as the one, holy, apostolic Church resolved the controversy in favor of icons. This is history. There is no new controversy here. The Church has spoken.

Now, if you wanted to discussion which icons are accepted, that would be different. There are some icons if painted, would not really be icons according to the Church and unfortunately, as file will soon point out, there are some heretical icons out there, even in churches, but this is a completely different issue.

You said it better than I could, Kristos.

 

[simonthezealot]

So where is the early church with a continuous history, or any before the reformation, that practiced iconoclasm?

Claudius bishop of Turin is just one of many i can think of.

 

[simonthezealot]

Agobard of Lyon, another...

 

[Fotina]

Agobard of Lyon, another...

And what happened to them and why was iconoclasm condemned?

 

[simonthezealot]

Eusebius (CHURCH HISTORIAN) declared himself in the strongest manner against images of Christ in a letter to the empress Constantia.

 

[simonthezealot]

Athenagoras condemns the use of images, and he criticizes a pagan argument used to justify the veneration of images, an argument that Roman Catholics also use, in (A Plea for the Christians, 17-18)

 

[Yab Yum]

Mat 24:26 So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
Mat 24:27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.