Icon veneration

[Andrew21091]

We should never worry about germs when venerating icons and we should always properly venerate them. If you are scared of germs from icons, what do you think about the receiving communion out of the same spoon everyone else does? The blessedness of the icon kills the germs so we shouldn't worry about it. It is a shame though when women wear lipstick to church and get it on the holy icons and that's what you see after the service; it's all over so when that happens, I find a spot on the icons that has no lipstick or what have you on it but I don't have to worry about it what I come to church since I'm usually one of the first people there. A lot of Russian churches (and other traditionalist churches) forbid the wearing of lipstick to church. St. John of San Francisco refused to give a ladies communion with lipstick on until they wiped it off completely; it would be nice if more priests were like that.

 

[heart of peace]

I purposely did not mention Communion because it is the actual Body and actual Blood of Jesus for one (and I don't believe the Body and Blood of Jesus is capable of being overtaken by bacteria), the alcohol in the wine has sterilizing effects for two, my priest has a way of placing the Eucharist in the mouth and using the spoon without any need for the person to close their entire mouth over the spoon and lastly because the cup that contains the Body and Blood is (from what I recall) a type of "metal" (??) that is a natural bacteria inhibitor. Icons are not Jesus' Body and Blood

My church is very different from those in here - the women all wear lipstick and the icons have glasses covering them and they are usually covered with a thin film of pinkish red by the end of the Divine Liturgy.

Thank you for responding. For those in Churches where the women who wear lipstick are respectful of other parishioners, that must be such a nice thing to experience. Perhaps you can remember to pray for me and my Church if you are led. Thank you

 

[Julina]

i usually kiss the glass, but sometimes i miss and end up just getting very close to it.
there was one time when i didn't see the glass and i almost broke it with my nose.
and if i see lipstick marks i just avoid those areas.

 

[fuerein]

i usually kiss the glass, but sometimes i miss and end up just getting very close to it.
there was one time when i didn't see the glass and i almost broke it with my nose.
and if i see lipstick marks i just avoid those areas.

Same here. I'll occasionally end up kissing the air but it is unintentional.

 

[Blackknight]

Fear of germs, that's what you have an immune system for. It needs practice!

Our icons have no glass and nobody wears lipstick so that's not an issue either.

 

[-Kyriaki-]

I've bumped my nose soooo many times. I kiss the glass/icon I don't worry about getting germs, it's just a quick kiss. Occasionally we get lipstick smudges but most women have had it bashed into their heads by the yiayiades that lipstick in Church is NOT ALLOWED! If they haven't done it, the priests do.

I've never worried about germs, but then when I grew up my mother let me play outside and I got horribly grubby and probably ate dirt and bugs, and germs and dirt dont really bother me. I hate lipstick marks, but I just wipe them off

 

[cobweb]

There's no glass or lipstick here. When I do venerate I always kiss the icon. Unfortunately I don't always get the chance because I'm wrangling a child or two (occasionally more like 6).

I'm definitely not worried about germs. We are packed in like sardines. If I'm going to catch something... oh well.

 

[heart of peace]

Thanks to everyone who replied. I don't like to kiss a spot where there is no lipstick as it is generally not in the area of the icon that should be kissed (feet/hands etc). Ultimately, it's the image on the icon that we are venerating and to me I want to venerate properly and not just some random place on the icon (where there is no lipstick). Mythedeos, the thoughts you added to this thread were good ones. One must just search within their heart and be aware of the intent of the kiss. THank you

 

[heart of peace]

I've never worried about germs, but then when I grew up my mother let me play outside and I got horribly grubby and probably ate dirt and bugs, and germs and dirt dont really bother me. I hate lipstick marks, but I just wipe them off

Oh, I definitely would take the germs of nature over the germs of man any day!

 

[cassc]

Hmm, honestly it never occurred to me to worry about germs on icons. I basically always kiss the icon unless I myself have chap stick on because I don't want to leave smudge marks! At my parish most of the Ladies wear lipstick and most full of kiss the icon. We in the PC try to go clean the main icons throughout the service so that they don't get to gross, the glass covered ones are easier to clean (because you can use Windex then rose water) it is more tricky if the icon is not covered with glass, because it is hard to get super durable lipstick off without causing any harm...

You parish probably has supplies* to clean the icons, maybe you could volunteer to be the "cleaner" that way you won't have to worry about the lipstick or the germs!

(rose water, a soft cloth, and maybe some Windex is all you need if they don't)

 

[Julina]

if i have a lip ring should i worry about breaking the glass?

 

[seashale76]

In my parish, some icons they put out have glass and many they put out don't. The lipstick thing is a problem here- but it isn't a problem for the young women and teens. The older the woman in my parish, the worse the lipstick problem. I'm not saying all the older women wear gobs of obvious lipstick because some don't, but it's a real issue here.

And yes, I put my lips on the actual icon- gross as it is to see lipstick marks.

 

[ClementofRome]

Just an afterthought....correct me if I err....

I have never kissed any "glass." Don't think I would ever bother to kiss glass. It seems a bit antithetical to the theology behind kissing the icon in the first place.

Forgive me.

 

[Protoevangel]

Just an afterthought....correct me if I err....

I have never kissed any "glass." Don't think I would ever bother to kiss glass. It seems a bit antithetical to the theology behind kissing the icon in the first place.

Forgive me.

Good point!

 

[a.d.ivNonasNovembres]

Good point!

Would one of you good folks explain this point to me, because I don't know this stuff.

 

[Greg the byzantine]

my bad

 

[Monica child of God 1]

To protect their icons, some parishes put them in frames with a glass cover. Some people are saying that if you're kissing the glass in front of the icon, then you're not actually venerating it. I don't quite buy that. To me, the intent is still there. Not to mention the distance between the icon and the glass covering it is minimal.

Actually, I took them to mean something else. It is not the glass that we kiss or venerate anymore than it is the paint, gilt or wood. We are venerating the image, not the material. The material is a vehicle.

St. Leontius, "When I honor Scriptures, I do not honor paper and ink but the word of God."

But Uncle Clem should do the clarifying.

M.

 

[Greg the byzantine]

Actually, I took them to mean something else. It is not the glass that we kiss or venerate anymore than it is the paint, gilt or wood. We are venerating the image, not the material. The material is a vehicle.

St. Leontius, "When I honor Scriptures, I do not honor paper and ink but the word of God."

But Uncle Clem should do the clarifying.

M.

Actually I think you are right. My bad, I pull the fallible human card on this one.

 

[heart of peace]

Well, I did use the word icon in the poll question.

 

[heart of peace]

You parish probably has supplies* to clean the icons, maybe you could volunteer to be the "cleaner" that way you won't have to worry about the lipstick or the germs!

(rose water, a soft cloth, and maybe some Windex is all you need if they don't)

That's actually a really good idea! We have a person who maintains the candles during the Divine Liturgy. I really need to become more active in my Church - this is the first year that my son is really old enough to be redirected easily. Hopefully I can be used in some way for my Church. Thanks, cassc for your great suggestion!