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I want to see timeline charts.....

nolidad

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Are you denying that Jesus fulfilled this covenant spoken of in Ezekiel?

Ezekiel 37:26-27 - And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary among them forever. 27My dwelling placed will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people.

John 1:14 -
The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth

Well mkgal Read carefully again Ezekiel 37: 26-27 and ask these questions:

has the nation of Israel been established?
Has Israel been multiplied?
Has God set His sanctuary for all time?
Has God made His dwelling place with Israel (see rev. 22)
Is Israel Gods people as prophesied in Jer. 31 and Zech. 12?

If you answer no to any of these then this covenant is not fulfilled! Partial fulfillment is not good enough with God!
 
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nolidad

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Where was David's throne after he had died? The eternal kingship/priesthood is not on earth, but in heaven.

After David died? Still Jerusalem.
Nowthe throne is empty! Jesus is in His role still as High Priest! Whikle He is king of kings, as it says in Hebrews, for now He is ever living to make intercession for us.

And Gd comes down to earth to establish a 1,000 year kingdom and as jesus says, He will set up His throne of glory . After the thousand years and when etewrnity starts again (so to speak) then The Fathers thronsd (New Jerusalem ) come to earth!

That is the bible as it is written and not mystically interpreted.
 
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mkgal1

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YOu really really need to do some research on Jewish history. The temple system (which was rung by the Sadducee's BTW) ended but the pharisaical religion still thrives amongst the most orthodox.

What the pharisees practiced stated as the Sopher, then became the Tannaim, then the Amora Then became the Mishnah, Gemera and Talmud which is still very praxcticed today.
I could have phrased that better, you're correct. The Pharisees continued as a movement, but obviously they then followed (after 70 AD) a different religious system than the Temple system.
 
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nolidad

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Not to get in between the slug fest between new covenant theology and dispensationalism, but I think Bab2's point if there hadn't been periodic adjustments made in the lunar month system (of each new month beginning by observing the sliver of the new moon appearing) - in 40 years, the Jews would be growing crops in winter. Or trying to.

There was an adjustment to account for the accumulative out of sync with the sun, by adding an extra month to the 12 months norm, every two or three years to get back in line with the sun.

The Jews held a lunar month system, and a twelve month a year system - that had to periodically be adjusted by having a 13 month year every two or three years. I don't think I would call their calendar a lunar year - but a lunar month system.

So some of their system's years were 360 days long. And some were 390 days long (that had the extra month).

Their theological calendar was always 360 days long! And in Israel you can grow crops year round in much of Israel!

Teh adjustments were done long after Jesus (maimonedes was the one who did all the math in the 13th century). That is their big theological calendar. They use the solar calendar to keep with global time.
 
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mkgal1

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After David died? Still Jerusalem.
Nowthe throne is empty!
Not earthly Jerusalem.

David's throne cannot be empty or else this promise would have been broken long ago:

Jeremiah 33:17 ~ this is what the LORD says: David will never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel
 
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nolidad

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Not God, but His way of communicating with us through His Scripture has precedent in interpretation. He is gracious, i believe.

He wouldn't give us a specific timeline without us having been given previous understanding of how to interpret it (at least that's my belief).

Christian Gedge has studied this for years and done a lot of the research in this area. It's a fascinating and faith-building study, IMO.

That is the norm, I agree. But when it comes to Daniel 9 covenant, reformed and amill theologians who established the mystical interpretative method erred in many ways of understanding Daniel.

First Jesus is not the prince of the people that shall come.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The he of 27 has to revert back to the nearest person involved. That is the ruler of the people who will destroy the sanctuary.

Next Jesus did not make a strong covenant with Israel . Amill says this only by mysticizing the scriptures.

Next in the middle of the 7 He did not cause (physical word) the sacrifice and oblations to cease! God knows perfectly well how to say that Jesus would make the efficacy of teh sacrifice and oblation to cease. YOu speak of precedent by God and then break your own claim by making this staqtement become wholly spiritual instead of physical.

So dispys (and some covenant folk) see this as an unfulfilled prophecy that awaits to be fulfilled. We look at the passage in its normal usage and view it as a literal prophecy.

I have read the works of over 1/2 dozen scholars who say that this is a spiritual ceasing and they have not shown why we should reject the literal for the mystical.
 
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nolidad

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Let us know when your book on the ancient Hebrew calendar will be available.

.

There are already many written by Hebrews, I don't need to write one. I just trust their scholarship! You have the burden of proof to show why Jews don't rely on a 360 lunar calendar when they say they do!
 
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BABerean2

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Their theological calendar was always 360 days long! And in Israel you can grow crops year round in much of Israel!

Teh adjustments were done long after Jesus (maimonedes was the one who did all the math in the 13th century). That is their big theological calendar. They use the solar calendar to keep with global time.

Have you ever thought about backing up these claims with sources?

Why would you think modern Orthodox Jews know the truth about the ancient Hebrew calendar?

Can you show us your claims, or their claims in the Bible?
.
 
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mkgal1

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But as Titus does not even remotely fulfill teh AoD nor did he enter the temple nor did he order the sacrifices to cease
The text states "the people of the prince" did the destroying....so it doesn't matter if they went against Titus's wishes....they still carried out the destruction (and that aligns with Scripture).

Daniel 9:26 ~ Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed.

ETA: i grabbed the wrong quote.
 
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nolidad

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Not earthly Jerusalem.

David's throne cannot be empty or else this promise would have been broken long ago:

Jeremiah 33:17 ~ this is what the LORD says: David will never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel

REas this more carefully! There never has been a time where there was not a man available to sit on Davids throne. Bu the throne has sat empty for a long long time. It will be reoccupied forever when Jesus sits upon that throne when He returns and sets up HIs 1000 year earthly kingdom.

I find it more than amusing that you scold me for literally interpreting so many prophesies when you follow the lead of teachers of the past and spiritualize them, and now attempt to go very literal here!
 
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nolidad

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Have you ever thought about backing up these claims with sources?

Why would you think modern Orthodox Jews know the truth about the ancient Hebrew calendar?

Can you show us your claims, or their claims in the Bible?
.

I did , but no one paid attention. I guess because it came from such an inferior dispensationalist! Google is you rfirend.
 
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nolidad

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The text states "the people of the prince" did the destroying....so it doesn't matter if they went against Titus's wishes....they still did the destruction (and that aligns with Scripture).

Daniel 9:26 ~ Then after the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing. Then the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood, and until the end there will be war; desolations have been decreed.

ETA: i grabbed the wrong quote.

That is what I said many many posts ago! Glad you are catching up!!!!!!! So the people destroyed the sanctuary, but Titus was not that prince of verse 27 He is still to come for He makes a covenant with Israel for 7 years ( what we call the tribulation period) and in the middle of that 7 year period He stops the resotred sacrificial system (not that God approves for He doesn't) fromm going on!
 
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nolidad

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Can we focus on just this one aspect of Daniel's prophecy for a bit?

Daniel 9:24 brings up the first purpose is to finish transgression. From Jews for Jesus: "The Hebrew word translated "to finish" means "to restrain firmly," "to restrain completely" or "to bring to completion." The Hebrew word translated "transgression" is a very strong word for sin and more literally means "to rebel." The Hebrew text has this word with the definite article, so literally it means "the transgression," or "the rebellion." The point is that some specific act of rebellion is finally going to be completely restrained and brought to an end. This act of rebellion or transgression is to come under complete control so that it will no longer flourish. Israel's apostasy is now to be firmly restrained, in keeping with a similar prediction in Isaiah 59:20."

And that's being put off to the future by the futurist's theology. What other aspects are shoved off into our future?

ISTM that the futurist's theology places these purposes off to our future as well (for the Jews, anyway):


The second purpose of the 70 sevens is to make an end of sins. The Hebrew word translated "to make an end" literally means "to seal up" or "to shut up in prison." It means to be securely kept, locked up, not allowed to roam at random. The Hebrew word translated as "sins" literally means "to miss the mark." It refers to sins of daily life, rather than to one specific sin. Even these sins are to be put to an end and taken away. This, too, is quite in keeping with predictions by the prophets that proclaim that in the messianic kingdom, sinning would cease from Israel (Isaiah 27:9, Ezekiel 36:25-27, 37:23, Jeremiah 31:31-34).

The third purpose is to make reconciliation for iniquity. The Hebrew word translated "to make reconciliation" is "kaphar," which has the same root meaning as the word "kippur," as in Yom Kippur. The word "kaphar" literally means "to make atonement." The third purpose, then, is to make atonement in some way for iniquity. In fact, it is by means of this atonement that the first two purposes will also be accomplished, that of finishing the transgression and making an end of sins. The word translated "iniquity" refers to inward sin. This has sometimes been referred to as the sin nature, or perhaps a more common term among Jewish people would be yetzer hara," the evil inclination."


The fourth purpose of the 70 sevens is to bring in everlasting righteousness. More literally this could be translated "to bring in an age of righteousness," since the Hebrew "olam" is better translated as "age" rather than as "everlasting." This age of righteousness is to be the messianic kingdom spoken of in the Prophets (Isaiah 1:26, 11:2-5, 32:17; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 33:15-18). It is this very age that Daniel had been expecting to see established after the 70 years of captivity, but now he is told that will only be after the 490-year period.

The fifth purpose is to seal up vision and prophecy. Here Daniel used a word which means "to shut up." So "to seal up" means to cause a cessation or to completely fulfill. Thus, vision and prophecy are to be completely fulfilled." Vision" is a reference to oral prophecy, while "prophecy" refers to written prophecy. Both oral and written prophecy will cease with the final fulfillment of all revelations.​

Careful now, you might be accussed of being a dispensationalist or futurist with this literalness.^_^
 
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mkgal1

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First Jesus is not the prince of the people that shall come.

That is what I said many many posts ago! Glad you are catching up!!!!!!! So the people destroyed the sanctuary, but Titus was not that prince of verse 27 He is still to come for He makes a covenant with Israel for 7 years ( what we call the tribulation period) and in the middle of that 7 year period He stops the resotred sacrificial system (not that God approves for He doesn't) fromm going on!
"People of the prince " is the subject of the destruction (the verb).......not the other way around.

Whether a person wants to assign the label of "prince" to Titus or Jesus (as agents of His will) it doesn't really matter. Either way, history aligns with Scripture.
 
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mkgal1

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Careful now, you might be accussed of being a dispensationalist or futurist with this literalness.^_^
That would be a first. That's something I've never been accused of being.

I don't know what could be more literal than the preterist belief of the fulfilment of the prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in the generation Jesus spoke to?

Mark 13:32 ~ “Do you see all these great buildings?” Jesus replied. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

Luke 21:20 ~ But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, you will know that her desolation is near.
 
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mkgal1

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REas this more carefully! There never has been a time where there was not a man available to sit on Davids throne. Bu the throne has sat empty for a long long time.
I would ask the same thing - to read more carefully.

David acted as a priestly king. It was only in the order of Melchizedek that David's throne could be passed on. The succession was from David to Christ Jesus. Never did the throne sit empty without a qualified man seated on it (which was an unconditional covenant characteristic).
 
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Douggg

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Their theological calendar was always 360 days long! And in Israel you can grow crops year round in much of Israel!

Teh adjustments were done long after Jesus (maimonedes was the one who did all the math in the 13th century). That is their big theological calendar. They use the solar calendar to keep with global time.
The adjustments were not expressly for the purpose of when to plant, but to ensure that the biblical Holy days would fall at the specified time. Passover, for example, which had to be observed during the Spring, would land during the Winter after a few years. If there were not adjustments. What the adjustments were is not mentioned in the Tanach.

The Jews currently add an extra month called Adar II to their calendar every two or three years.
 
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Douggg

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I would ask the same thing - to read more carefully.

David acted as a priestly king. It was only in the order of Melchizedek that David's throne could be passed on. The succession was from David to Christ Jesus. Never did the throne sit empty without a qualified man seated on it (which was an unconditional covenant requirement).
Which, if I might add. There were only three kings over Israel, before it split into two nations.

Those three kings:
Saul - anointed king by Samuel the prophet
David - anointed king by Samuel the prophet
Solomon - anointed king by Nathan the prophet

The forthcoming prince who shall come will be anointed the King of Israel by the false prophet

The prophets spoke on behalf of God. The false prophet, who speaks as a dragon, will speak on behalf of Satan.

Jesus, the rightful King of Israel, who comes in the name of the Lord, is anointed the King of Israel directly by God Himself.
 
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BABerean2

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Jesus, the rightful King of Israel, who comes in the name of the Lord, is anointed the King of Israel directly by God Himself.

And that happened at His baptism.
I has already been done.

Act 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.


He was already both Lord, and Christ, on the Day of Pentecost.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


.
 
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mkgal1

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He was already both Lord, and Christ, on the Day of Pentecost.
Exactly. And as was brought up in the other thread, there is a New Jerusalem....a new Temple.....and a new Israel (the People of God - Jew and Gentile united) all this came with the New Covenant.

Hebrews 9:15 ~ Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
 
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