I want to see timeline charts.....

mkgal1 · Jun 26, 2020

Douggg said:
The Kingdom of Heaven to be brought here to earth to become the Kingdom of God on earth, did not happen in that generation of Israel.

Nor did Jesus nor the prophets say that would happen.

Douggg · Jun 26, 2020

nolidad said:
History betrays you!

It wasn't until Maimonedes of the 12th century that Israel modified its calendar to add days to match the solar calendar!

So anderson kept accuracy by Jewish reckoning of their lunar calendar! The adoption of the solar calendar did not take place widely until the Julian Calendar. While Israel used it to trade with the Roman Empire, they kept their lunar calendar for themselves.

Even now, Israel dates the year based on the lunar calendar!

Not to get in between the slug fest between new covenant theology and dispensationalism, but I think Bab2's point if there hadn't been periodic adjustments made in the lunar month system (of each new month beginning by observing the sliver of the new moon appearing) - in 40 years, the Jews would be growing crops in winter. Or trying to.

There was an adjustment to account for the accumulative out of sync with the sun, by adding an extra month to the 12 months norm, every two or three years to get back in line with the sun.

The Jews held a lunar month system, and a twelve month a year system - that had to periodically be adjusted by having a 13 month year every two or three years. I don't think I would call their calendar a lunar year - but a lunar month system.

So some of their system's years were 360 days long. And some were 390 days long (that had the extra month).

Douggg · Jun 26, 2020

mkgal1 said:
Nor did Jesus nor the prophets say that would happen.

It is in the Lord's prayer.

The Lord’s Prayer
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give
us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us
not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory, forever and ever.

Amen.

mkgal1 · Jun 26, 2020

Douggg said:
It is in the Lord's prayer.

The Lord’s Prayer
Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give
us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us
not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

For thine is the kingdom and the power, and the glory, forever and ever.

Amen.

And Jesus ushered in His Kingdom at His first advent......and His followers (at that time, Jewish believers and now, Christians) represent Him. He is our king/High priest now. His "throne" and rule is from heaven.

mkgal1 · Jun 26, 2020

God's covenant with David said "And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure for ever before me; your throne shall be established for ever." (2 Samuel 7:16)

But also, in Jeremiah 22:30 the prophet said this about Jehoiachin :
"Thus says the LORD, 'Write this man down childless, A man who will not prosper in his days; For no man of his descendants will prosper Sitting on the throne of David Or ruling again in Judah.'"

So.....if this throne was established forever (God promised).......but the Judean descendants of the city of David's king Jehoaiachin will never prosper sitting on the throne of David or ruling again in Judah (Jesus is a descendant of Jehoiachin).....then where does that leave this everlasting throne?

We can see the beginning of this promise being fulfilled that the descendants will never prosper sitting on the throne of David in Judah when the Israelites were taken off into captivity in Babylon.

Douggg · Jun 26, 2020

mkgal1 said:
And Jesus ushered in His Kingdom at His first advent......and His followers (at that time, Jewish believers and now, Christians) represent Him. He is our king/High priest now. His "throne" and rule is from heaven.

I would not phrase it as "ushered in His Kingdom". The Kingdom of God certainly began inside people who repented of their sin. Jesus will return to rule and reign, physically present here on earth.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

mkgal1 · Jun 26, 2020

Douggg said:
I would not phrase it as "ushered in His Kingdom". The Kingdom of God certainly began inside people who repented of their sin.

I can agree that's not the best phrase (because, really, I believe He always was king of those that followed Him.....so His kingdom was technically in the hearts of His people).

But His parable describes a specific stripping away of the religious power the chief priests and Pharisees had prior to 70 AD. I'm not sure how to phrase that properly. There was a change in the office of High Priest. It went from the Levitical line/order to the order of Melchizedek.

mkgal1 · Jun 26, 2020

Douggg said:
I would not phrase it as "ushered in His Kingdom". The Kingdom of God certainly began inside people who repented of their sin. Jesus will return to rule and reign, physically present here on earth.

Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

You say Jesus will return to physically rule and reign on earth, yet quote a passage that states the kingdom of God comes not with observation or something we see....that the Kingdom of God is within us? How can He be coming physically in the future but not be seen?

mkgal1 · Jun 26, 2020

nolidad said:
So unless god sets a prior precedent- According to you He is not allowed to do something like propose a gap? Excuse me if I am not there when you tell HIm what He can and cannot do!

Not God, but His way of communicating with us through His Scripture has precedent in interpretation. He is gracious, i believe.

He wouldn't give us a specific timeline without us having been given previous understanding of how to interpret it (at least that's my belief).

Christian Gedge has studied this for years and done a lot of the research in this area. It's a fascinating and faith-building study, IMO.

Douggg · Jun 26, 2020

mkgal1 said:
You say Jesus will return to physically rule and reign on earth, yet quote a passage that states the kingdom of God comes not with observation or something we see....that the Kingdom of God is within us? How can He be coming physically in the future but not be seen?

if it is Christians praying the Lords prayer - why would we pray for His Kingdom of come, unless it were physical ?

Jesus will be coming back to earth physically in the future and will certainly be seen.

mkgal1 · Jun 26, 2020

Douggg said:
if it is Christians praying the Lords prayer - why would we pray for His Kingdom of come, unless it were physical ?

Jesus will be coming back to earth physically in the future and will certainly be seen.

That statement isn't supported by the Scripture you shared. So maybe the prayer means something different?

Douggg · Jun 26, 2020

mkgal1 said:
That statement isn't supported by the Scripture you shared. So maybe the prayer means something different?

Do you expect to see Jesus face to face in heaven and some day return to earth with Him ?

mkgal1 · Jun 26, 2020

Douggg said:
Do you expect to see Jesus face to face in heaven and some day return to earth with Him ?

I don't have expectations like those specifically, no, because I don't believe that's been disclosed to us.

mkgal1 · Jun 26, 2020

Douggg said:
You do not live in the first century, but you believe in Jesus.

The current generation of Israel, the Jews, will be the nation that produces fruit when the become Christians in the middle of the 7 years.

That's true, I don't live in the first century, but I believe in Jesus. That's not really relevant to what i posted, however.

My point was that most Scripture points to events that occurred from 30-70 AD. That was a very pivotal time period. To remove the text from its context (and original audience) causes a different gospel to be formed.

The text i quoted states the chief priests and Pharisees knew Jesus was speaking of them. They've been gone for thousands of years, so this wasn't referring to something future to us (the parable of the wicked tenants).

mkgal1 · Jun 26, 2020

Can we focus on just this one aspect of Daniel's prophecy for a bit?

Daniel 9:24 brings up the first purpose is to finish transgression. From Jews for Jesus: "The Hebrew word translated "to finish" means "to restrain firmly," "to restrain completely" or "to bring to completion." The Hebrew word translated "transgression" is a very strong word for sin and more literally means "to rebel." The Hebrew text has this word with the definite article, so literally it means "the transgression," or "the rebellion." The point is that some specific act of rebellion is finally going to be completely restrained and brought to an end. This act of rebellion or transgression is to come under complete control so that it will no longer flourish. Israel's apostasy is now to be firmly restrained, in keeping with a similar prediction in Isaiah 59:20."

And that's being put off to the future by the futurist's theology. What other aspects are shoved off into our future?

ISTM that the futurist's theology places these purposes off to our future as well (for the Jews, anyway):

The second purpose of the 70 sevens is to make an end of sins. The Hebrew word translated "to make an end" literally means "to seal up" or "to shut up in prison." It means to be securely kept, locked up, not allowed to roam at random. The Hebrew word translated as "sins" literally means "to miss the mark." It refers to sins of daily life, rather than to one specific sin. Even these sins are to be put to an end and taken away. This, too, is quite in keeping with predictions by the prophets that proclaim that in the messianic kingdom, sinning would cease from Israel (Isaiah 27:9, Ezekiel 36:25-27, 37:23, Jeremiah 31:31-34).

The third purpose is to make reconciliation for iniquity. The Hebrew word translated "to make reconciliation" is "kaphar," which has the same root meaning as the word "kippur," as in Yom Kippur. The word "kaphar" literally means "to make atonement." The third purpose, then, is to make atonement in some way for iniquity. In fact, it is by means of this atonement that the first two purposes will also be accomplished, that of finishing the transgression and making an end of sins. The word translated "iniquity" refers to inward sin. This has sometimes been referred to as the sin nature, or perhaps a more common term among Jewish people would be yetzer hara," the evil inclination."

The fourth purpose of the 70 sevens is to bring in everlasting righteousness. More literally this could be translated "to bring in an age of righteousness," since the Hebrew "olam" is better translated as "age" rather than as "everlasting." This age of righteousness is to be the messianic kingdom spoken of in the Prophets (Isaiah 1:26, 11:2-5, 32:17; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 33:15-18). It is this very age that Daniel had been expecting to see established after the 70 years of captivity, but now he is told that will only be after the 490-year period.

The fifth purpose is to seal up vision and prophecy. Here Daniel used a word which means "to shut up." So "to seal up" means to cause a cessation or to completely fulfill. Thus, vision and prophecy are to be completely fulfilled." Vision" is a reference to oral prophecy, while "prophecy" refers to written prophecy. Both oral and written prophecy will cease with the final fulfillment of all revelations.

BABerean2 · Jun 26, 2020

nolidad said:
History betrays you!

It wasn't until Maimonedes of the 12th century that Israel modified its calendar to add days to match the solar calendar!

So anderson kept accuracy by Jewish reckoning of their lunar calendar! The adoption of the solar calendar did not take place widely until the Julian Calendar. While Israel used it to trade with the Roman Empire, they kept their lunar calendar for themselves.

Even now, Israel dates the year based on the lunar calendar!

Let us know when your book on the ancient Hebrew calendar will be available.

.

nolidad · Jun 27, 2020

solid_core said:
The sacrifices are done with. Both technically (the temple was destroyed by Titus) and theologically (explained in the book to Hebrews).

Both since the first century. We can debate if it was personally Titus or whether it was in 66 AD, 70 AD or other details, but generally the truth still stands. It was all completed in the first century.

And I agree with you 100% The sacrifices and oblations have ceased since 70AD when the temple was destroyed (that is the historical date)

But as Titus does not even remotely fulfill teh AoD nor did he enter the temple nor did he order the sacrifices to cease

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

The word cease is a physical word meaning to exert labor )formal) and to practice (colloquial)

Jesus did not physically cause the sacrifices to cease. That is taking this passage and twisitng it to mean something completely different thasn is written and commonly understood. How do you know all those who have passed this mystical definition of this passage got the new meaning of this passage right? What authority did they possess to take the normal meaning of the words and give them mystical qualities?

nolidad · Jun 27, 2020

solid_core said:
Why are you trying to stand on such details?

When, in the history of Israel, was the temple destroyed for 2 millenia and Jews without a kingdom for 2 millenia? When, in the history of Israel, was Israel without any prophets for 2 millenia?

Its so obvious that this situation is so exceptional that its really not realistic to try to put it down and wait for something else in the future.

Except for teh simple fact that God said He would scatter Israel across the globe for their transgression (singular) desatroy their temple and make thema hiss and byword across the globe. Then God also said in the latter days He would gather Israel AGAIN back to their land, in unbelief, to purge out of them the sinner and rebel and to cleanse them so they will be a holy people unto Himself! Just because it has been 1950 years means nothing!

Amillenialists mocked and cajoled their brethren when it was said that Israel would be restored to their land! In 1948 it happened! And Amillenialists and post millenialists and all stripes of covenant theology had triple and quadruple hernias trying to make excues as to why Israel coming back to their land was just a mere coincidence and had nothing to do with the bible!

If one takes Gods Word as written and does not "spiritualize" or mysticize the words as written, one comes to the conclusion that Israel back in the land is as God declared! They will rebuild the temple as prophesied, they will see 2/3 of all Jews die as prophesied and the 1/3 left will all call upon Jesus as messiah as prophesied!

I will take God at His normal Word over some allegorical preachers mystical meanings any day

nolidad · Jun 27, 2020

Christian Gedge said:
Tell that to a school class in Tel Aviv. Lunar calendars are 354 days and luni-solar calendars have an extra month added once every 3 years. There is no such thing as a 360-day calendar.

Well having been in Israel and knowing many rabbis- I know you are wrong!

the Jewish lunar calendar is 360 days! Google is your friend!

nolidad · Jun 27, 2020

mkgal1 said:
The chief priests and Pharisees knew Jesus was speaking about them in the first century. Did they have or represent the Kingdom of God in 71 AD or today? Pharisees and their religious system ended in 70 AD. They understood what Jesus was saying.

YOu really really need to do some research on Jewish history. The temple system (which was rung by the Sadducee's BTW) ended but the pharisaical religion still thrives amongst the most orthodox.

What the pharisees practiced stated as the Sopher, then became the Tannaim, then the Amora Then became the Mishnah, Gemera and Talmud which is still very praxcticed today.

I want to see timeline charts.....

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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