I think I regret

[benedictaoo]

Jim, you can develop faith based on reason. Its not the whole of it but it can begin there.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim, you can develop faith based on reason. Its not the whole of it but it can begin there.

No you can't. Faith comes from God alone.

Intellect can help you to open yourself up to faith, but it must come from God.


Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

From the CCC

162 Faith is an entirely free gift that God makes to man.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
it is not from works, so no one may boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

Jim

 

[JoabAnias]

They are not separate,

You said the were. So you mispoke then?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

You said the were. So you mispoke then?

Ah, no I didn't say they were seperate.


Jim

 

[JoabAnias]

Ah, no I didn't say they were seperate.


Jim

To quote you:

"Intelligence has nothing to do with faith".

That claim is Unequivocally Wrong.

Pope John Paul II: Faith and reason

and unbiblical:

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.

Thank you for retracting your incorrect claim - to quote you again:

"They [faith and reson] are not separate"

 

[Meepy]

No you can't. Faith comes from God alone.

Intellect can help you to open yourself up to faith, but it must come from God.


Jim

yes, this is true. Faith is a gift given by God, through grace and the promptings of the Holy Spirit. But through our intellect we can assent or reject that faith. Hence intellect is synergistic with faith.

Unless your a Calvinist and believe faith is irresistible. In that case, yes, reason, intellect, and free will have no involvement in faith.

 

[JoabAnias]

Jim, you can develop faith based on reason. Its not the whole of it but it can begin there.

God said everyone is given a measure of faith. Yet not all the same measure.

Is there a way to get increases in Faith from God?

 

[Meepy]

lol, every-time I see this OP I think of those "I regret my abortion" signs.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

JoabAnias

"Intelligence has nothing to do with faith".

Yes, in the context where I was responding to the OP's statement, that she didn't feel intelligent enough to be a Catholic.

Intelligence has nothing to do with faith, because faith comes from God, to those who intellectually poor as well as the highly intelligent.

Intellect is used to grow in faith by learning about God, but faith itself is from God.

When St. Paul was knocked off his horse and saw Jesus standing before him, it wasn't his intelligence that gave him faith, but Jesus Christ.

In fact, before his conversion, St. Paul used his intelligence to persecute Christians.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

God said everyone is given a measure of faith. Yet not all the same measure.

Is there a way to get increases in Faith from God?

By being open to God, but faith comes from God nonetheless.

Everything we have was given to us.

Jim

 

[JoabAnias]

By being open to God, but faith comes from God nonetheless.

Everything we have was given to us.

Jim

Did someone say (faith or any gift) didn't come from God?

We said we need to temper our emotions with our minds.

Your argument is kind of a moot isn't it?

Its seems like it comes from the Pentecostal movement when no one was opposing it to begin with.

Its as if your trying to argue the protestant point of view on the faith and works apologetic.

The problem with that is, our faith isn't dead or even luke warm so heretical arguments don't work that well here.

Gotta run.

 

[JoabAnias]

Yes, in the context where I was responding to the OP's statement, that she didn't feel intelligent enough to be a Catholic.

I see where you're coming from now. I agree that faith isn't reliant on intellect per se.

The chain of context to what you were really replying to got lost there somehow.

 

[Joshua G.]

I just feel weird here. Out of place.

I have a lot of questions only God can answer.

1) OBOB is not the Catholic Church. I can't speak for OBOB but if you had become Orthodox and felt a little wierd in TAW, I'd say that's a good thing.

2) When I became Orthodox, I entered into a period (mine only lasted a couple weeks, but they can last much longer) where I thought "what the h--- did I just do?!" because the thing is becoming Catholic or Orthodox is not a simple choice because we believe it is THE Church... not just a denomination. It's a commitment thing. The realization hits you "I took this on for life and leaving this is no simple act" and then we go into freak out mode like a guy who got married and then fully FELT what that commitment was once he got married and then freaked out. Satan uses this against us.

3) My priest had told me to expect this. I am SOOOO glad he did becuase it would have caught me off guard.

4) He said to pray even when it feels like no one is there. Pray for God's comfort.

5) This is also why it is VITAL to have set prayers. Spontaneous prayer is great, but set/memorized prayer that you say every night from your Church (a routine that is not too daunting) is essential to Spiritual Health. If you don't have this, talk to you priest about this now and have him help you set up something that is manageable, even when times get really tough like this.

6) I agree with BA that extended catecumenates are a good thing. It is almost never wise, in my opinion, to rush things. However, that doesn't mean you would have been lead to make another choice... it only means that you might have been more prepared for this. Plus, that is not your fault. IF BA and I are right that perhaps you should have waited longer (and I don't even know you so I can't say that about your particular situation) that was your priest's responsibility. Unless I am wrong, they have the right to slow you down if they feel it's not the time.

7) It doesn't matter if BA and I are right or not, you are where you are and lamenting over something that MAY have been a mistake is useless. Plus, even as an Orthodox my guess would be that this is where you are meant to be now.

I hoped that helped a little... or at least didn't hinder.

Josh

 

[Joshua G.]

Oh yeah, and as others have said:

My guess is that being Catholic is not about being able to explain the Eucharist and Purgatory.

Just be Catholic. Go to Mass, go to confession, the Eucharist, pray, pray, pray, and love others. You can memorize your CC all you want. That's great and CAN be helpful, but it's not going to make you more Catholic.

I know Orthodox who are more Orthodox than I am and they can't explain the two natures of Christ. They just accept and DO.

Christianity is about DOING (e.g. praying, loving, etc) all things with faith in Christ.

Josh

 

[JoabAnias]

My guess is that being Catholic is not about being able to explain the Eucharist and Purgatory.

Being able to give an answer for every aspect of the faith is not a requirement to be Catholic but it is a calling as a result of being Catholic.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord Christ in your hearts, being ready always to satisfy every one that asketh you a reason of that hope which is in you.

Which is not to say all must be uber capable of learning every aspect of the faith.

Romans 12:6
And having different gifts, according to the grace that is given us, either prophecy, to be used according to the rule of faith;

 

[Joshua G.]

JA:

I'd agree... although I think this applies according to our abilities and place in this world. Learning a lot about theology too much can be a stumbling block for some and even a source of pride.

 

[JoabAnias]

JA:

I'd agree... although I think this applies according to our abilities and place in this world. Learning a lot about theology too much can be a stumbling block for some and even a source of pride.

Thats true but those aren't reasons to convince oneself not to learn of God and ones self.

Its very possible to be a lifelong scholar without letting it go to ones head.

But I agree, I am only going to be able to learn as much as I am able. God only requires sincerity.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

All this reminds me of St Bernadette on how they wouldn't let her receive her first Holy Communion, because she had difficulty learning her catechism.

Yet, the Blessed Mother appeared to her.

If I remember correctly, it wasn't until after the Blessed Mother appeared to her that they pushed forward her first Communion. She was 14 years by then.

Jim

 

[CruciFixed]

I can explain purgatory to an extent its a concept not a place but i was taught several things in RCIA about purgatory not just 1 thing. I also understand the mass, saints, the eucharist, baptism etc

i am just not a theologian and like joshua g said its like getting married theres no turning back