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I think I regret
- Thread starter CruciFixed
- Start date
I'm glad a lot of you seem to understand what I was saying (not that I was the only one). I was afraid you would take my words to mean that the Catechism is dumb or that Theology is evil.
I guess I have two points I just want to make:
1) I doubt that Meepy would disagree with much of what a lot of us have said. I don't know him real well, but I see his icon. That's why I said (and I meant) that I think we are talking past each other. Certainly we all know that he wasn't suggesting that knowing facts about the Immaculate Conception will save you or that you will be damned if you don't can't correctly explain the nature of the Trinity (not that we could ever "understand" the Trinity in its fullness). I imagine he is reacting to the notion (that none of us hold) that theology doesn't matter, that we can believe whatever we want and simply blaze our own trail following whatever sounds neat to us. He also expressed that we should use our faculties to the best of our abilities and certainly those of us who are able to participate in academics with deeper cognition (and that includes our OP judging from her posts) should not ignore theology, but learn about it to the point that it is useful to nourish our souls and defend the faith according to our situation. Certainly the Pope, bishops and Church theologians have a higher calling to that than most of us do, but I think we can all agree that we are not all called to fight every fight. Sincere challengers will not bully someone into winning a debate if they really want to know the truth. So, if someone is debating me beyond my knowledge and they don't respect that when I tell them "I don't know, but I will try to find you someone who does", they probably aren't looking for truth anyway.
My guess is that Meepy perhaps sees academic theology has having a more important role in faith than most of us, but I imagine that we all agree that academic theology is important, but that it is not the end all when speaking of the individual. We fall on different spots in that spectrum, but not to the point we actually disagree on anything fundamental.
2) I think it is clear that here we are speaking of Theology in the academic sense because that is clearly what Brikkz was referring to earlier when she said sometimes she feels dumb in these forums and then we all commented.
However, and someone here alluded to this already (I think it was Davidnic), but there is another, greater sense in which theology is used... a more historical sense and, I suppose, accurate sense (although, I am not a linguistical purist to suggest that we can't allow for new meanings of a word depending on the context- in other words, I think it is perfectly reasonable to use the word theology simply to express the academic exercise of studying about religious doctrine as long as the context is clear, which it has been here) is "knowing God".
I don't know about the Western Catholic Church, but in the East we refer to St. John as St. John the Theologian and that is not to shine light on the size of his brain, but the fact that he knew God so well in a uniquely INTIMATE way. Inevitably out of that came great words that we can apply to "theology" in the mundane sense, but it is very different. Theology in the mundane sense doesn't turn you into a theologian in the spiritual sense (or vice versa-- although they can certainly overlap without mere coincidence). So, if we understand theologian in this way, it is obvious that we are all called to be theologians (which I am not, unfortunately due to my sinfulness). What DOES consistently always nourish us as TRUE theologians is not academic theology (not CONSISTENTLY and across the board) is love for God, prayer, the Sacraments and, simply put, goin' ta Church (even if the sermon isn't good, lol)!
Josh
I guess I have two points I just want to make:
1) I doubt that Meepy would disagree with much of what a lot of us have said. I don't know him real well, but I see his icon. That's why I said (and I meant) that I think we are talking past each other. Certainly we all know that he wasn't suggesting that knowing facts about the Immaculate Conception will save you or that you will be damned if you don't can't correctly explain the nature of the Trinity (not that we could ever "understand" the Trinity in its fullness). I imagine he is reacting to the notion (that none of us hold) that theology doesn't matter, that we can believe whatever we want and simply blaze our own trail following whatever sounds neat to us. He also expressed that we should use our faculties to the best of our abilities and certainly those of us who are able to participate in academics with deeper cognition (and that includes our OP judging from her posts) should not ignore theology, but learn about it to the point that it is useful to nourish our souls and defend the faith according to our situation. Certainly the Pope, bishops and Church theologians have a higher calling to that than most of us do, but I think we can all agree that we are not all called to fight every fight. Sincere challengers will not bully someone into winning a debate if they really want to know the truth. So, if someone is debating me beyond my knowledge and they don't respect that when I tell them "I don't know, but I will try to find you someone who does", they probably aren't looking for truth anyway.
My guess is that Meepy perhaps sees academic theology has having a more important role in faith than most of us, but I imagine that we all agree that academic theology is important, but that it is not the end all when speaking of the individual. We fall on different spots in that spectrum, but not to the point we actually disagree on anything fundamental.
2) I think it is clear that here we are speaking of Theology in the academic sense because that is clearly what Brikkz was referring to earlier when she said sometimes she feels dumb in these forums and then we all commented.
However, and someone here alluded to this already (I think it was Davidnic), but there is another, greater sense in which theology is used... a more historical sense and, I suppose, accurate sense (although, I am not a linguistical purist to suggest that we can't allow for new meanings of a word depending on the context- in other words, I think it is perfectly reasonable to use the word theology simply to express the academic exercise of studying about religious doctrine as long as the context is clear, which it has been here) is "knowing God".
I don't know about the Western Catholic Church, but in the East we refer to St. John as St. John the Theologian and that is not to shine light on the size of his brain, but the fact that he knew God so well in a uniquely INTIMATE way. Inevitably out of that came great words that we can apply to "theology" in the mundane sense, but it is very different. Theology in the mundane sense doesn't turn you into a theologian in the spiritual sense (or vice versa-- although they can certainly overlap without mere coincidence). So, if we understand theologian in this way, it is obvious that we are all called to be theologians (which I am not, unfortunately due to my sinfulness). What DOES consistently always nourish us as TRUE theologians is not academic theology (not CONSISTENTLY and across the board) is love for God, prayer, the Sacraments and, simply put, goin' ta Church (even if the sermon isn't good, lol)!
Josh
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Josh, IOW, Saints are not made becuase of their writings and great theological brains but becuase of their holiness.
Faith hope and love to an heroic degree.
You can be made a doctor of the Church but that is because your knowledge in being able to understand and articulate the theology came from a place of the Holy Spirit enlightening you.
It really has little to do with natural intellectual ability
Faith hope and love to an heroic degree.
You can be made a doctor of the Church but that is because your knowledge in being able to understand and articulate the theology came from a place of the Holy Spirit enlightening you.
It really has little to do with natural intellectual ability
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Yes!
Yeah, although I guess I understand these terms (doctor and theologian) a bit differently. I could be wrong, but doctor seems to be attributed to people because of their ability to explain the finest nuances of theology in truth in a way that the Church had not been able to express before.
Whereas theologian focuses more on the holiness of the person and not as much on their words. Their understanding of God was profound beyond what most of us can comprehend. However, their words may or may not have expressed that profoundness EXPLICITLY. The Book of John, for example is extremely profound and shows that St. John had a profound undestanding of God in an truly intimate way. However, his concepts aren't all spelled out. They are there implicitly, but not explicitly like, say, St. Augustine.
I don't know if that's how the Catholic Church applies the two terms and I couldn't even swear to that about the Orthodox Church but the difference between the two (while overlapping) is useful for me because I do see a difference in calling or legacy between a theologian and a doctor of the Church. But perhaps I am wrong and the title Doctor and Theologian (even in my Church) are interchangeable.
Anyway...
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plmarquette
Veteran
go to the catholic book store and pick up a copy of
sacramental symbols
scriptural references to the baltimore cathechism
read 1 John chapter 1.1-5 ... refrain from a song you sing at church.... what made you come back... consider, the hand of God, the peace within you, the touch of the Holy Spirit...
it is about what God says and what you believe...it is not about what others think or say, you will stand before God and speak for your self in the last day, why do you believe? Make an appointement and sit down and talk with your pastor, enroll in a Dominican / Franciscan associate program, the Legion of Mary... get involved in some thing...will be ok ...you have been blessed, be a blessing to others , Genesis 12.2-3
sacramental symbols
scriptural references to the baltimore cathechism
read 1 John chapter 1.1-5 ... refrain from a song you sing at church.... what made you come back... consider, the hand of God, the peace within you, the touch of the Holy Spirit...
it is about what God says and what you believe...it is not about what others think or say, you will stand before God and speak for your self in the last day, why do you believe? Make an appointement and sit down and talk with your pastor, enroll in a Dominican / Franciscan associate program, the Legion of Mary... get involved in some thing...will be ok ...you have been blessed, be a blessing to others , Genesis 12.2-3
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Meepy
Senior Member
If it has nothing to do with intellect, God would not have created humans with an intellect. It is our reason and intellect that shows us we are unique and made in the image of God. Take away intellect and you have no free will and are basically legally insane.
The atheist, has free will and intellect. He can think, and he can make free choices. However, all his operations are in the natural order. Being without divine and Catholic faith he cannot enter the realm of the supernatural. Unfortunately, he is unaware of his plight.
The Catholic believer is a person who not only has the natural powers of intellect and free will functioning in the natural order, he also has faith. Faith is our supernatural intellect, so to say. It is a power similar to the intellect, and yet it is entirely above the natural order. It is in the supernatural order. Essentially the intellect becomes "divinized" by faith.
Just as the idiot cannot reason in the natural order, so too the person without divine and Catholic faith cannot "reason" in the supernatural order
When making man, God ordained that each and every one of His human creatures were to function both with a natural intellect and with a supernatural intellect. When either of these are absent, the human being is defective. Hence, the atheist is not just less learned in supernatural truths, but he is entirely without supernatural truth. God directs man to his natural end by the human intellect, and He directs him to his supernatural end with his faith. As already stated, even a naturally good intellect is defective when it is not assisted by divine and Catholic faith.
Without intellect we are like animals, with no reason, but just instinct. Intellectual ability is one thing, but intellect in itself is one of the unique factors God bestowed only on humans. It is involved in faith.
well. The trinity is an important thing. It is essentially the core of Christianity, apart from the Resurrection. Many people went into the way of heresy because they would not explain the Trinity correctly, or post errors about it. According to the ancient fathers and the early church, people like the Arians and other heretics were cut off from salvation because of it. Heresy effects the state of ones soul. I think learing about the Trinity would be a very core and necessary issue for all Christians. That is why the Church had catachumen classes for very long times, to teach people about the faith and the doctrines. In the early Church this would go on for very long times.
What you learn definitely can have an effect on your faith. The people who studied with heretics like Marcion and Valentanius effected their status with the Church, and thus salvation, because of it.
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S
_Shannon_
Guest
Honey--that's almost definitely a good thing! This place is NOT the Church. Not even a close approximation. It's full of a bunch of people with no lives who use the internet as a drug primarily.
Scrap THIS place, before you scrap the Church.
The hardest thing to do when we struggle with our faith is to pray and spend time with Jesus in adoration--but it is precisely then, that that's exactly what we need to do. This faith isn't about intellect--it's about heart and just doing the imperfect best you can with what you've got.<3
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yeah, so profound it had to come from the Holy Spirit.
A theologian, to me is the study of God. I do not equate that with holiness. Holiness is more related to the practicing or exercise of faith, hope and love and growing in virtue, transforming... theosis.
But I guess since those are the theological virtues, you may be correct.
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S
_Shannon_
Guest
It's true. LOL! I have maybe 300 posts in the past two years, when I posted more it was most definitely and addiction/avoidance behaviour..12k posts. hmmm
that's kinda a meanie thing to say.
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Faith, holiness and knowledge of theological matters based on your God given intelligence are not the same thing.
Divinization or theosis, comes from praxis and not so much through your brain. Holiness is as Holiness does.
You think your holy becuase you know stuff?
For real? Wow? That's so incredibly incorrect. So I guess you don't know so much then, huh?
Meep, honey, I can tell you straight up that you read and quote and think you know, but you are clueless on a great many theological issues.
Yeah, you may know all the "canned" answers and you may know how to regurgitate it back when needed, but to truly KNOW in a profound deep way the heart of all these dogmas and doctrines... I'm not so sure that you do know.
If you do not take your orthodx "right teaching" answers and grow in the love of God and internalize it, so what? At this point, who the heck cares what you know.
At the end and in the end, what gets us through the pearly gates is not how much right orthodx teaching we know, its how we loved other ppl with the love of God that we grew in.
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Meep, Shannon has a few other accounts so the actual number of her posts are outrageous. I think I have another account that has 20,000 posts.
We have been on these forums for 6-7 years now... we know what we are talking about here.
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Knowlege is a gift that can make us more wise but also more culpable.
Luke 12:48
But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.
Luke 12:48
But he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more.
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Right
But, at least in the East, "Theologian" is not about an academic ability to write, but rather about one who truly understood God in an intimate way. It's very different from how we use the term in the ordinary world of today to have more to do academic understanding. that is not to say that we, in the East, do not use the word theologian to mean what you say it means (mundane sense) but when it is a title given to a Saint, it's not referring at all to their erudite abilities... Doctor, however, does.
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yes and no... if it can't get past the head and never get down to the heart- the culpability may be decreased.
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Virgil the Roman
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my conversion to the Catholic church. I think it was too soon that I did RCIA And too quickly I decided to be Catholic.
I feel some will soon use this against me later but I guess I just wanted to share how I'm feeling lately.
You'll be fine, Lass!
God bless ya!
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Virgil the Roman
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Brikkz, I should hope that you are not too down and out. Perhaps, you'd do best at taking a forums-break.
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Romanist
That's probably in order soon. I am thinking of taking a huge break from all of my favorite sites for Lent and just getting on my pc for school work although I am not too certain.
However, since starting this thread I've felt better.
That's probably in order soon. I am thinking of taking a huge break from all of my favorite sites for Lent and just getting on my pc for school work although I am not too certain.
However, since starting this thread I've felt better.
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