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ViaCrucis

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The only way around these explicit teachings is to deny the historical understandings of the Jews and the church regarding these passages.

Nope. Non-literal views are part of the historic teaching and understanding of the Church, whether this is so in Judaism I don't know one way or the other. From Origen, to Augustine, to Aquinas many of the most prominent teachers and theologians of the Christian Church have not been literalists when it comes to these things; this sort of wooden literalism, and the dogmatic insistence upon it, are the product of the modern age. They not a reflection of the historical teachings of the Christian Church.

"Nor was it only with regard to those Scriptures which were composed down to the advent of Christ that the Holy Spirit thus dealt; but as being one and the same Spirit, and proceeding from one God, He dealt in the same way with the evangelists and apostles. For even those narratives which He inspired them to write were not composed without the aid of that wisdom of His, the nature of which we have above explained. Whence also in them were intermingled not a few things by which, the historical order of the narrative being interrupted and broken up, the attention of the reader might be recalled, by the impossibility of the case, to an examination of the inner meaning. But, that our meaning may be ascertained by the facts themselves, let us examine the passages of Scripture. Now who is there, pray, possessed of understanding, that will regard the statement as appropriate, that the first day, and the second, and the third, in which also both evening and morning are mentioned, existed without sun, and moon, and stars— the first day even without a sky? And who is found so ignorant as to suppose that God, as if He had been a husbandman, planted trees in paradise, in Eden towards the east, and a tree of life in it, i.e., a visible and palpable tree of wood, so that anyone eating of it with bodily teeth should obtain life, and, eating again of another tree, should come to the knowledge of good and evil? No one, I think, can doubt that the statement that God walked in the afternoon in paradise, and that Adam lay hid under a tree, is related figuratively in Scripture, that some mystical meaning may be indicated by it. The departure of Cain from the presence of the Lord will manifestly cause a careful reader to inquire what is the presence of God, and how anyone can go out from it. But not to extend the task which we have before us beyond its due limits, it is very easy for anyone who pleases to gather out of holy Scripture what is recorded indeed as having been done, but what nevertheless cannot be believed as having reasonably and appropriately occurred according to the historical account. The same style of Scriptural narrative occurs abundantly in the Gospels, as when the devil is said to have placed Jesus on a lofty mountain, that he might show Him from thence all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them. How could it literally come to pass, either that Jesus should be led up by the devil into a high mountain, or that the latter should show him all the kingdoms of the world (as if they were lying beneath his bodily eyes, and adjacent to one mountain), i.e., the kingdoms of the Persians, and Scythians, and Indians? Or how could he show in what manner the kings of these kingdoms are glorified by men? And many other instances similar to this will be found in the Gospels by anyone who will read them with attention, and will observe that in those narratives which appear to be literally recorded, there are inserted and interwoven things which cannot be admitted historically, but which may be accepted in a spiritual signification." - Origen, De Principiis IV.16

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Jimmy D

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I have been on this board for a while now asking for any scientific evidence that the Bible is not 100% accurate and true. So far no one has come up with anything other than the skeptics Bible which can be dealt with as a whole unit. People either have the mind of Christ or they have a reprobate mind and that is pretty much the extent of it. Either way there is still no scientific evidence that the Bible is not 100% accurate and true.

Let's get this right, what you actually mean is that you rarely accept any evidence that contradicts your interpretation of the bible.
 
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Jimmy D

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Never once has anyone ever shown me evidence that the Bible is not 100% accurate and true. If you have seen so many examples then I am sure you would be glad to share some of those examples for us.

A typical conversation....

Joshua:
There are huge, huge, huge amounts of evidence for the Ark and Noah. He saved the whole ecosystem of domesticated plants and animals. If it were not for Noah farming would not have been able to spread from the Middle East to Europe and the rest of the world. Look and you will see how much of the food we eat here in America came from the Fertile Crescent in the Middle East. What we call ancient Mesopotamia in the Tigris Euphrates River Valley. Noah may have had a boat but he was the first to invent meals on wheels. Some people say he invented beer also. No doubt they had wine.

Ophiolite:
Since you have taken the time to study it perhaps you will share some of that study with us.

Specifically what actual evidence do you have that Noah saved the whole ecosystem of domesticated plants and animals?
Just a hint: if your evidence is the Bible story, I've already done that part of the study. It's the more ind depth stuff I am looking for from you.


Joshua:
We are talking about the development of farming in Ancient Mesopotamia and how farming spread to Europe from there. This is when wild plants became domesticated. In biology this is known as botany. Professor Mark Nathan Cohen has written a book about this subject. This is all very intense and very involved with a lot of artifacts to examine and a lot of different theories to consider. In fact the whole Bible revolves around the story of ancient man going from a food gather to a food producer. AS Adam in the Bible was the first to plow the land.

By 7000 bc, sowing and harvesting reached the fertile soil of Mesopotamia, where Sumerians systematized it and scaled it up. By 8000 bc, farming was entrenched on the banks of the River Nile. About this time, agriculture was developed independently in the Far East, probably in China, with rice rather than wheat as the primary crop. Maize was domesticated from the wild grass teosinte in West Mexico by 6700 bc.


Me:
How many times do we have to go through this?

You have presented evidence for the spread of agriculture, which we are all aware of by now.

Have you got any evidence for the existence of Noah or his supposed ark or not? When did this catastrophic flood occur?

Where have you demonstrated that 'Adam' first ploughed the land? What date did he do this exactly?



Joshua:
Patriarchal%20Timeline%20From%20Adam%20Through%20Isaac.jpg



Me:
All that graph illustrates is how mistaken you are - as your post detailing the spread of agriculture shows, the time lines are completely off.

Joshua:
You asked when the plow was invented and you asked when Noah's flood was. Agriculture was progressive and began as far back as 13,000 years ago when the Ice age came to an end. Actually pottery goes back 20,000 years and they have found ancient grains that old. They find fishing hooks and sowing needles that goes back about 35,000 years. Even today inventions have an inventor that lived at one time and one place. Look at the wheel for example. The assyrians were the first to not only invent the wheel but domesticate the horse to pull their war chariot. They got into a war with Egypt and they won that war. Soon after that the Egyptian army began to use chariots and they began to win a lot more wars. So we can trace the wheel and the war chariot from Assyria to Egypt using Egyptian Hieroglyphics.

 
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ximmix

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Now, my question would be, even if God did dictate to Moses how he created the universe, does anyone really think he was going to give a complicated scientific explanation to an ancient people? Start off with a lesson in astrophysics, maybe? I wouldn't consider myself an Old Earth Creationist, but I am intrigued by the idea that there might be something to the order of events in Genesis 1 if you get around the storybook presentation.

Wouldn't an all powerful god dictate such an important text in a way so that it's for all the future generations, not just the generation that happened to be alive at the time? So why not a lesson in astrophysics..?
 
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AV1611VET

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Wouldn't an all powerful god dictate such an important text in a way so that it's for all the future generations, not just the generation that happened to be alive at the time?
Yes, and in a way that children can understand it, as well as scientists adults.

A good example would be calling an automobile a "horseless carriage."
 
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ximmix

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Yes, and in a way that children can understand it, as well as scientists adults.

A good example would be calling an automobile a "horseless carriage."

Seems like a small miracle for an all powerful being to write a text that everyone understands and that can't be misinterpreted...
 
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AV1611VET

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Seems like a small miracle for an all powerful being to write a text that everyone understands and that can't be misinterpreted...
Now that would take a miracle!

People even argue the meaning of our Second Amendment.

And for the record, did you know that the First Law of Thermodynamics isn't really the first? it's the second.
 
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The Brown Brink

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your post suggested that you were which is why I mentioned it. If you are not confusing the difference then maybe you need to reword your post to reflect that understanding.

Perhaps you should re-read the post for better comprehension.
 
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Cearbhall

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Cearbhall, just out of curiosity, is your The Bible is Circular Logic meme a UU doctrine?
What a strange thing to say.
I know scientists believe it; but I'm confused how someone with a flaming chalice avatar can be so hard-nosed about our sacred Scriptures.
I am neither Christian nor Jewish. I find value in the Bible as an anthology of literature, but the topic here is history and science. I will not speak in a way that suggests fictional events occurred.
 
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Silmarien

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Wouldn't an all powerful god dictate such an important text in a way so that it's for all the future generations, not just the generation that happened to be alive at the time? So why not a lesson in astrophysics..?

Does the Epic of Gilgamesh stop being worth reading because we're now in the 21st century? I don't think the Bible needs to be a scientific and historical textbook to be relevant for future generations. We like figuring out the way the universe works, so I'm not sure why an omniscient God would give us all the answers instead of letting us learn things for ourselves. And considering that Christianity posits a God who largely taught through parables, I'm honestly baffled by the hostility towards the idea that God always works through stories.

(I personally don't buy dictation models of divine inspiration one way or the other. It's a bit incoherent when viewed in the context of the evolution of religion, not to mention the fact that people claiming to experience the Holy Spirit end up saying wildly different things.)
 
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razzelflabben

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Does the Epic of Gilgamesh stop being worth reading because we're now in the 21st century? I don't think the Bible needs to be a scientific and historical textbook to be relevant for future generations. We like figuring out the way the universe works, so I'm not sure why an omniscient God would give us all the answers instead of letting us learn things for ourselves. And considering that Christianity posits a God who largely taught through parables, I'm honestly baffled by the hostility towards the idea that God always works through stories.
the only thing I would say here is that there is some text in scripture that shows no markers for parable so it is important to know what is and is not story for teaching a lesson which can only happen through reading for comprehension which seems to be a lost art.
 
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AV1611VET

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What a strange thing to say.

I am neither Christian nor Jewish. I find value in the Bible as an anthology of literature, but the topic here is history and science. I will not speak in a way that suggests fictional events occurred.
Then UU can take that Cross down off of its symbol, if that's what they think of our Scriptures.

UU is a cult, anyway -- but now it's a lying cult.

They venerate the Cross as a symbol of Christianity, while at the same time claiming the Scriptures are circular?

I don't get it.
 
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