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I struggle with...

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razzelflabben

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The OT sacrifices were a part of many evolved Pagan religions in that age. Some backward religions still do it. It's mans attempt to manipulate the Gods since he cant grasp grace and forgiveness. Primitive man thought surely something must be given in exchange to make it all even.

So, specifically, God never told anyone to sacrifice birds and bunnies, that's a purely human development written about in retrospect as coming down from God.

Eventually even the Jews just naturally gravitated away from blood sacrifices.
now, I can agree with you to a point and even understand to another point further down the road, but what do you do with passages about oh...let me see...the holiness of God, the separation of man, the consequence for sin, etc. See, all of these inform us as to scriptures intent and you start out talking about some of them then deviate into something that (no offense intended) sounds like gibberish to me that removes a host of passages from the discussion which is why I am getting confused by what you believe.
 
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Speedwell

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got a question for you...what scientific treatise found in scripture is NOT evidenced in science? Please be specific...as per the context of what I am saying and asking here.
There is no "scientific treatise" found in scripture.
 
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razzelflabben

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There is no "scientific treatise" found in scripture.
exactly...so keep going, eventually you might figure out what I have been saying...so if no scientific treatise where would we get any understanding of what the bible says or doesn't say about science?
 
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Speedwell

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exactly...so keep going, eventually you might figure out what I have been saying...so if no scientific treatise where would we get any understanding of what the bible says or doesn't say about science?
What makes you think it says anything about science beyond the observations of the natural world within the capabilities of the societies which produced the texts? The vain notion that the Bible says anything about science which could have been known at the time is foolish and a discredit to the Word of God.
 
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Speedwell

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[Staff edit].

I answered your question: there is no "scientific knowledge" revealed in the Bible which was not available to people at the time the texts were written. How could I be more clear than that?
 
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tstor

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Nice. So a billion-ish christians are wrong, and you are correct?

You determined this, how exactly?
Through reading Scriptures.


Is the OT in the catholic bible the same OT as in whatever bible version you happen to be reading?
No. Their Old Testament canon is larger.

Particularly, Genesis? Because that is, off course, the subject here.
Is there something specific in the "Apocryphal books" that states that Genesis shouldn't be taken literally?
The Book of Genesis is the same in both canons. I am not sure if the Apocryphal books speak to the issue of creation. Again, I have not familiarized myself with all of their contents.

You did an excellent job of dodging the question concerning the genesis account.

Let's try again: what makes you think that your particular understading concerning the genesis account is correct, while that of the billion-ish catholics is not?
You did not specifically ask about Genesis. Do not expect me to read your mind or this will be a rather short discussion.

Many Catholics share the same view of Genesis as I do. So I am not sure what you are talking about.

Wouldn't this mean that your entire stance on genesis is just your personal preference and that you actually have no proper justification for stating that a billion-ish christians have it "wrong" while you have it "right"?
No. Perhaps you should take the time to read what I said and not what you want me to say.
 
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Speedwell

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[Staff edit].

YEC is scriptural, one of many possible readings of the creation stories. What it is not is the only possible reading, nor does it justify the belligerent hostility exhibited by many creationists towards other Christians.
 
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Norbert L

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...trying to understand the creationist mentality. I've been struggling with this for years. Is anyone prepared to give an honest, clear explanation as to why they believe in creationism?
It's about the narrative. When you examine some evidence, Richard Dawkins today lies when he claims evolution is a fact and religious people today can lie when they make claims about a God they haven't seen or spoken to face to face.

Whose word are you going to believe? You can no more scientifically observe and verify life forms evolving out of a test tube from some kind of primordial soup than you can be certain that past generations are making stuff up about their environment and experiences. The idea that evolution takes too long to recreate such an experiment is just an excuse and some how we know exactly what people where thinking and experiencing thousands of years ago needs some kind of bizarre mind reading.

However not all scientists are disingenuous with what can be observed and measured nor do all ancient texts testify about what happened to people lie about their experiences. There's a choice to be made because we have a limited time to figure things out.

Here's an Oxford professor of mathematics talking about how he believes the best literary explanation of Genesis should be understood.
 
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Colter

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It's about the narrative. When you examine some evidence, Richard Dawkins today lies when he claims evolution is a fact and religious people today can lie when they make claims about a God they haven't seen or spoken to face to face.

Whose word are you going to believe? You can no more scientifically observe and verify life forms evolving out of a test tube from some kind of primordial soup than you can be certain that past generations are making stuff up about their environment and experiences. The idea that evolution takes too long to recreate such an experiment is just an excuse and some how we know exactly what people where thinking and experiencing thousands of years ago needs some kind of bizarre mind reading.

However not all scientists are disingenuous with what can be observed and measured nor do all ancient texts testify about what happened to people lie about their experiences. There's a choice to be made because we have a limited time to figure things out.

Here's an Oxford professor of mathematics talking about how he believes the best literary explanation of Genesis should be understood.

* Life evolved from primitive life forms after the creation event.

* As for mans religious and revelatory heritage, in the distant past we were betrayed by a high celestial administrator, the world fell.

* Some time later 2 incarnate celestials materialized and began their reign as the worlds new spiritual leaders, Adam and Eve. In short order they fell into a trap and sinned but repented.

* In Babylon, when the Old Testament books were being finalized, the Hebrews incorporated the well known Mesopotamian legend of Adam and Eve into their narrative of origins. They assumed Adam and Eve were the first humans.

* The Bible is the written word, its human.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Not to your satisfaction,

Not so -- I've found the scientific method to be quite satisfying. Of course, it doesn't give the answers you wish it did, so it seems the unsatisfied one is you.

Just one source for that, God himself.

Assume for a moment that this is so, you still need a method of getting it from the source to you... preferably a reliable one.
 
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Colter

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[Staff edit].

God is the absolute authority, man is finite and imperfect.

Revelations from God through various subordinate celestial agencies have occurred for hundres of thousands of years. Some of those truths were lost and or imperfectly presevered long before the advent of writing.

From those revelations man as speculated about origins. Man has written his speculations and accumulated spiritual truths in books which became sacred and eventually The Word of God. That's the problem, the Bible is human.
 
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razzelflabben

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God is the absolute authority, man is finite and imperfect.
your opinion and the opinion of a vast number of christians...
Revelations from God through various subordinate celestial agencies have occurred for hundres of thousands of years. Some of those truths were lost and or imperfectly presevered long before the advent of writing.
not sure how this relates to the topic at hand, can you explain how it answers the OP question.
From those revelations man as speculated about origins. Man has written his speculations and accumulated spiritual truths in books which became sacred and eventually The Word of God. That's the problem, the Bible is human.
this does NOT address why people believe in creation only that they do...
 
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razzelflabben

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There's a garden gnome in my front yard which is always 100% right about everything.
IF that is true than you should in my opinion use that as the authority on everything.

But see, that was the point...wisdom says that if there is something that is right 100% of the time one should accept that authority over something that needs revised regularly...there was no discussion about whether or not that 100%right all the time exists or not and if it does exist what or who it is...the only discussion was over what would wisdom dictate if such an authority existed...
 
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Speedwell

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IF that is true than you should in my opinion use that as the authority on everything.

But see, that was the point...wisdom says that if there is something that is right 100% of the time one should accept that authority over something that needs revised regularly...there was no discussion about whether or not that 100%right all the time exists or not and if it does exist what or who it is...the only discussion was over what would wisdom dictate if such an authority existed...
I wonder if I could get the government to teach what the garden gnome tells me in public school science classes?
 
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