I need your help with a discussion on Christian spirituality!

tycoon34

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Hello all!

I've been sort of a lurker here for some time, but want to humbly request from you all some help for a seminary assignment that I have. I currently attend Fuller working on my mDiv, and in my Philosophy of Spirituality class we are asked to engage in online forum discussion on the philosophy of spirituality for a report. Knowing that many good discussions occur on this forum, I would love to hear your thoughts on some ideas and engage in a meaningful discussion on the topics. Of course, any and all help is greatly appreciated, knowing that your participation is amazingly gracious.

Basically to start I wish to pose a few questions we've been wrestling with in the course thus far. If you are willing, feel free to answer any or all of these questions as you feel comfortable, giving reasoned answers that are supported either biblically or academically. Then, I will respond to each answer in kind, hoping to engage in meaningful discussion! Any questions please let me know.

**1. Which tradition do you come from? How does that tradition inform your spiritual practices?**

**2. How can the theology from other traditions (namely Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Mainline Protestant) inform your own spirituality?**

**3. How does developments in science (specifically neuroscience) and anthropology inform, if at all, how the human mind and body is composed?**

**4. One of the topics we have studied is the body/soul debate; namely, whether the body and soul are separate entities (dualism) or a single entity (monism). What are your opinions on this debate?**

**5. How should a theology of spirituality inform humanity's role in social justice issues?**

**6. What is Christian spirituality? How do we know how to practice it?**

Please let me know if I did something wrong or if this is not the place for this kind of post!

God Bless,

Tyler
 

GandalfTheWise

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**1. Which tradition do you come from? How does that tradition inform your spiritual practices?**
**2. How can the theology from other traditions (namely Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Mainline Protestant) inform your own spirituality?**
I grew up in a mainline protestant church, started attending a pentecostal church in college, and have spent most of my adult life in either evangelical or pentecostal churches of some type with a number of years in a mainline protestant church as well. I have also extensively read Christian classics from authors from a wide range of traditions.

Using Gary Thomas' 9 spiritual pathways as a description, I tend to be highest on intellectual, followed by ascetic, naturalist, and contemplative as my preferred ways of expressing spirituality. This has changed over time. Earlier in life, I was much more influenced by those around me and tended to express my spirituality in ways more common to various groups I was part of. Later in life, I started marching to the beat of my own drummer more than that of others.

I'd say that various tradition largely hindered my spirituality by forcing me into a mold that fit the group. My degree of reverence, exuberance, activism, and other such things was "peer pressured" toward the group norm rather than my norm. The problem was that I did not realize this was happening. It was decades before I realized the best way to walk with God was how He created me to walk with Him; not what worked for other people I was hanging around with. The reality is that I could now comfortably fit in with most traditions unless they force me to aggressively defend their distinctive doctrines and practices against outsiders.

Theology wise, the biggest change for me happened when I learned enough Greek to do my devotional reading in the GNT and LXX. The differences between manuscripts in museums around the world forced me to reevaluate my views on how I used proof texts. Also, when I realized that each "side" on various debate had armies of Greek scholars arguing why they were right about particular verses, I simply realized that God isn't hiding what He wants. If it's not something plain and clear and honest Christians disagree, there's not much use worrying about it. When I adopted the view that I wasn't going to worry about anything that didn't have at least a half dozen passages strongly supporting it, I found that I was left with the core doctrines common to most Christian traditions. I tend toward a sola scriptura view of things BUT recognize that all traditions acknowledge some level of divine guidance in the leadership of their group that either expands upon scripture or "explains" it "properly".

Ultimately, my spiritual walk has become much stronger and healthier because I learned to walk with God in the unique way He made me to be and stopped trying to find a group where I fit in.


**3. How does developments in science (specifically neuroscience) and anthropology inform, if at all, how the human mind and body is composed?**

I have a Ph.D. in physics and decades of applied work as an engineer, scientist, and analyst. I'd note that anthropology and other soft sciences do NOT have the predictive and analytic capability of the hard sciences and to some extent tacitly incorporate researcher biases. To be blunt, running social science data into statistical packages and returning an impressive table of numbers and a few graphs often puts the face of a hard science conclusion onto meaningless numbers. I'm not familiar enough with neuroscience research to comment on it. My general impression is that it is reasonably well done and gives insight into the function of the brain.

I'd make one point about science today. In most areas of research, there will be some degree of disagreement among scientists about what something means. The viewpoint that often emerges as the dominant one is the one which attracts funding. If something is researched by two groups, and one group says, "no big deal" while other says, "it might be a big deal", if some entity (be it corporate or governmental or activist group) decides one view or the other fits their narrative, they'll fund the group that will give better results for them. There is also the effect of the media myth that is created when a preliminary or even worthless piece of research is trumpeted loudly and continuously. For example, I for years had believed the myth of a generation of "crack babies" whose mothers had used crack cocaine and the effect it caused on them. For awhile, this became a focal point for the war against drugs. A few decades of research later, and there is a case to be made that what was being seen was the effect of poverty. 'Crack baby' development issues not side-effect of drug, but poverty Instead of using this as a call to arms to fight poverty, it was politically used as a call to arms against drugs. I've seen similar things over the years. Sadly, most of the people who try to point these things out at the time end up being badly disparaged.

To me, the bottom line is that explaining "how" something happens is not the same as understanding "for what purpose" or "why" something happens. Science can study the reproducible under limited conditions and draw conclusions or can study the not reproducible and draw conclusions. One must then choose to believe that either physical cause and effect is the only thing that exists, or if there is something more that is outside the realm of cause and effect. Cause and effect clearly explains the reproducible in the lab. The question is whether or not cause and effect clearly explains everything. Science is a tool for studying cause and effect. If cause and effect is all that exists, science can pretty much eventually explain everything. If something more than cause and effect exists, science will have gaping holes that it cannot explain.

**4. One of the topics we have studied is the body/soul debate; namely, whether the body and soul are separate entities (dualism) or a single entity (monism). What are your opinions on this debate?**
The real question is there anything beyond the physical universe? If not, then monism is the only possible explanation. If there is something, then dualism is possible.

Ultimately, I see dualism as the only possibility whereby any meaning of life can exist. If the physical universe is all that exists, everything we do, every decision, every human venture, every song and painting, every good act, all of it, will at some point vanish into a sea of impersonal subatomic particles with all of the pain and joy of our lives vanished and with no trace remaining. If we're famous or have a lot of kids, then our influence might extend a few centuries or millennia longer, but it will ultimately be vanity of vanity trying to catch the wind. Perhaps we could take some fleeting solace in something like Carl Sagan's "Star Stuff" monologue. But ultimately, we're nothing more than some very complex physical patterns of subatomic particles that are to some extent self-aware.

In contrast, if we are dualistic whereby our being made in the image of God and being brought to life through the breath of God means that there is an aspect of our volition and will that makes decisions that touch and shape an eternal and spiritual world, our lives have an eternal meaning and effect.

**5. How should a theology of spirituality inform humanity's role in social justice issues?**
Here's a post I made about how NOT to do it. Loving others by forsaking the use of litmus tests

I see most issues of social justice being a matter of group on group force and violence. I'm not convinced that counter group on group violence will solve it. And by violence, I mean any type of coercion be it threats of physical force, legal force, or political force that forces someone to do what we want. The reality is that I see as much hate and vitriol coming from one "side" as the other. The Kingdom of God cannot advance under those conditions.

It is our actions toward other individual human beings that ultimately make positive changes. We need to convince others of our "correctness" by our words and actions toward everyone. The ugly reality is that the face of the SJ movement I've seen is about as hateful toward non-SJ people as the very thing they are supposed to be fighting.

Spiritual people should not be resorting to non-spiritual methods. Too many Christians (on both sides!) are being manipulated emotionally by "leaders" of movements who are in it for their own gain. Perhaps some are sincere, but there are politicians, bankers, and the ultra-rich who stand to gain a lot from getting large groups of people so emotionally wound up that they cannot think straight. To the extent Christians fall for this, they lose their ability to push for real permanent change.

**6. What is Christian spirituality? How do we know how to practice it?**

Spirituality is simply living life as God intended for each us. We are each unique creations, works of art, treasures, made by the Creator to reflect His glory in a way unique to each of us. Spirituality is partly that process of walking with Him and slowly becoming that ever-developing work of art that He is creating to show the world something of Himself.

I think the person who we are at this moment is a combination of 3 things: 1. the part of us that is what God means for us to be, 2. parts of us shaped by others (via expectations, pressure, wounds, and scars), and 3. those stupid things we've done that are unhealthy and not good and other things that God didn't want there. I think spirituality is learning more about who God means us to be and being healed of those things that cripple us. This is a process of spending time with God and letting Him show us what is what.

Too often, I believe people latch onto particular things inside themselves (be it that which is from God or things not from God), proclaim that is who they are, and then run with it. To me, it's sad when I see someone latching onto something and make it their life's mission when it's based on things not from God. It's like our life is a garden. We need to prayerfully meditate on what it is that we are meant to grow or we could end up spending all of our effort growing weeds.

For me, spirituality looks something like this. I usually spend an hour or so a day reading the LXX and GNT and a half hour reading the NVI (I'm learning spanish) for my devotional reading. I find this is peaceful and relaxing. It takes my mind off the frustrations and troubles of the world. I often find particular verses or passage just leap out at me depending on what is happening in my life. I spend time alone just thinking and talking with God. I read other books. I'm on a vacation from it now, but I've usually been involved in various ministries. Lately, I've been spending time here on CF hopping into threads where I think can maybe make a positive difference. I've also been doing a lot of lurking and seeing what insights I can pick up from various people. I've been starting to write a few books. I've been learning how to do digital art to express myself better beyond words. I enjoy spending time with my family.
 
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jax5434

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Hello all!

I've been sort of a lurker here for some time, but want to humbly request from you all some help for a seminary assignment that I have. I currently attend Fuller working on my mDiv, and in my Philosophy of Spirituality class we are asked to engage in online forum discussion on the philosophy of spirituality for a report. Knowing that many good discussions occur on this forum, I would love to hear your thoughts on some ideas and engage in a meaningful discussion on the topics. Of course, any and all help is greatly appreciated, knowing that your participation is amazingly gracious.

Basically to start I wish to pose a few questions we've been wrestling with in the course thus far. If you are willing, feel free to answer any or all of these questions as you feel comfortable, giving reasoned answers that are supported either biblically or academically. Then, I will respond to each answer in kind, hoping to engage in meaningful discussion! Any questions please let me know.

**1. Which tradition do you come from? How does that tradition inform your spiritual practices?**

**2. How can the theology from other traditions (namely Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Mainline Protestant) inform your own spirituality?**

**3. How does developments in science (specifically neuroscience) and anthropology inform, if at all, how the human mind and body is composed?**

**4. One of the topics we have studied is the body/soul debate; namely, whether the body and soul are separate entities (dualism) or a single entity (monism). What are your opinions on this debate?**

**5. How should a theology of spirituality inform humanity's role in social justice issues?**

**6. What is Christian spirituality? How do we know how to practice it?**

Please let me know if I did something wrong or if this is not the place for this kind of post!

God Bless,

Tyler

**1. Which tradition do you come from?

Southern Baptist.

? How does that tradition inform your spiritual practices?**

I still pack around a lot of boxes that God doesn’t belong in but I’ve overcome most of it.

**2. How can the theology from other traditions (namely Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Mainline Protestant) inform your own spirituality?**

In some areas, other traditions have influenced me greatly. As examples, I find the Eastern Orthodox understanding of Ancestral Sin to be more in keeping with scripture than Augustine’ original sin theology.

From the Celtic Christian traditions, I very much agree with the emphasis they placed on the immanence of God.

**3. How does developments in science (specifically neuroscience) and anthropology inform, if at all, how the human mind and body is composed?**
Here again I am a little unclear on the question. In general, my position is that all truth is Gods truth. I have never yet felt my faith threatened by scientific discoveries. Including those in evolution (if that is what you mean by “anthropology”)


**4. One of the topics we have studied is the body/soul debate; namely, whether the body and soul are separate entities (dualism) or a single entity (monism). What are your opinions on this debate?**

I haven’t really considered this in any detail. But in general, I think dualism flows more from Greek thought than Hebrew.

**5. How should a theology of spirituality inform humanity's role in social justice issues?**

Our faith is supposed to be holistic. As such it should inform every sphere of our lives. “What would Jesus do” has become a hackneyed question but it should still be asked in every situation.

**6. What is Christian spirituality?

It is the way in which we relate to God.

How do we know how to practice it?**

The older I get the less sure I am that we do. Sometimes I can’t escape this nagging feeling that there is something essential we are missing. I think theology is more often a hindrance than a help in our spiritual lives.

God Bless

Jax
 
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PloverWing

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**1. Which tradition do you come from? How does that tradition inform your spiritual practices?**

**2. How can the theology from other traditions (namely Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Mainline Protestant) inform your own spirituality?**

I grew up in a Southern Baptist church, and for K-12 I attended a Christian school sponsored by a nondenominational Evangelical Protestant church; these (very similar) traditions formed the foundation of my Christian upbringing. I became Episcopalian 32 years ago, while I was in graduate school, and that has been my spiritual home during my adulthood.

During a time of spiritual exploration in my young adulthood, I visited churches and study groups from an assortment of Christian traditions, including Assemblies of God, Catholic, Lutheran, Methodist, and Quaker, and these also have influenced my spiritual life.

The elements from these traditions that I value most are: 1) liturgy, sacrament, and an incarnational view of the relationship between the divine and the human, from the Episcopal tradition, also shared by Catholics and Lutherans; knowledge of the Bible, and its application to everyday life, from the Baptist/Evangelical traditions; contemplative prayer, from the Catholic tradition; and quiet worship, along with a genuine respect for the Light that is in one's self and in every other person, from the Quaker tradition.

**3. How does developments in science (specifically neuroscience) and anthropology inform, if at all, how the human mind and body is composed?**

I'm not a neuroscientist, or even a biologist, so I don't feel qualified to address this one.

**4. One of the topics we have studied is the body/soul debate; namely, whether the body and soul are separate entities (dualism) or a single entity (monism). What are your opinions on this debate?**

I am a computer science professor who specializes in artificial intelligence, so this one is very much an interest of mine. However -- I don't know the answer. I think both dualism and monism can be consistent with Christian theology. Dualism is the easiest fit: In this view, we have a soul, and it's in one body now, and in the Resurrection God will make us a new body; and it's the soul that persists from one body to the next. But physicalism (monism, where the "single entity" that exists is the physical body) is possible too: perhaps intelligence and consciousness are emergent behaviors of sufficiently complex brains. This doesn't deny that God made our bodies, and it doesn't deny a possibility of continued intelligence after death, since the creeds say we look forward to a resurrected body.

If AI research succeeds in making a fully intelligent-appearing android, then that will suggest that physicalism is at least plausible. If AI research fails and fails in achieving fully intelligent-appearing androids, then that will suggest the dualism answer. Currently, it's too early to tell.

**5. How should a theology of spirituality inform humanity's role in social justice issues?**

I agree with GandalfTheWise's warning about litmus tests.

However, I am also compelled by the parable of the sheep and the goats, and other similar passages: We are to treat those around us as we would treat Christ himself. If Christ were poor, or sick, or African-American, or female, or an immigrant, how would we want to treat him?

Similarly, in our baptismal vows, we promise to "seek and serve Christ in all persons, loving your neighbor as yourself".

This doesn't necessarily give us specific social or political policies. There can be multiple ways to address issues of poverty, health care, ethnic differences, and so on, and people of good will can disagree about what works best. But it does give us a basic attitude: we are to care for those around us as though we were caring for Christ himself.

**6. What is Christian spirituality? How do we know how to practice it?**

Wow, what a big question. I guess Christian spirituality encompasses all the ways in which we encounter God, and there are many ways that this happens. One is the direct forms of prayer and worship: Praying, using words, either privately or publicly; worship services, which may be liturgical or more free-form; hymns, anthems, choruses, and other kinds of music. Another is the more quiet ways we encounter God's presence: Sitting in silence, walking in nature, walking a labyrinth, and other forms of meditation and contemplative prayer. Yet another is all the ways we act as God's hands and feet in the world: Serving soup at the local soup kitchen, listening to a troubled student, helping carry boxes on the neighbors' moving day, working for public policies that make for a better society. Still another is creating and discovering mathematics, art, science, literature, all to the glory of God. That's not an exhaustive list, but those are what come to mind at the moment.

Thanks for your questions, and good luck in your MDiv program.
 
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Sanoy

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**1. Which tradition do you come from? How does that tradition inform your spiritual practices?**
I was raised in a Methodist church but I am non denominational. I believe what I think is true regardless of the church I go to.

**2. How can the theology from other traditions (namely Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Mainline Protestant) inform your own spirituality?**
I don't think denominations can. I think the Bible can give us a good start but it doesn't give use enough specifics to complete a theory. I think philosophy is a better approach than denominational tradition.

**3. How does developments in science (specifically neuroscience) and anthropology inform, if at all, how the human mind and body is composed?**
I think it helps a lot actually. We have cases where people are cognitively dead and yet still experience. One of those people who were cognitively dead was even a Neuroscientist who got to analyze his own data when he recovered! It's not a part of the topic but I think it's important to mention we have people born with almost nothing but a brain stem and yet they are capable of exhibiting the core essence of what makes us living beings, like Love. Their entire skull case is just fluid and a bump on the brain stem.

**4. One of the topics we have studied is the body/soul debate; namely, whether the body and soul are separate entities (dualism) or a single entity (monism). What are your opinions on this debate?**
I think Monism is logically wrong. If something is true of A but is not true of B then they are not the same thing. There are things true about my consciousness that are not true about any part of my brain. So logically speaking they are not the same thing.

I think Dualism is underdeveloped. I have my own theory which is a mixture of emergent materialism and dualism which I call Emergent Dualism. I think our consciousness emerges from the body/brain and our soul. I think it provides a better explanation than dualism when it comes to why our consciousness is humanish. For example why would our soul find women attractive or have a favorite flavor of ice cream? I think it is also necessary to operating the human body effectively. The difference between dualism and "Emergent Dualsim" when it comes to operation is like the difference between driving a tank, and being a tank. Emergent dualism allows you to be the thing while strict dualsim leaves you as a driver inside a machine. But that isn't our experience, our experience is that we are the thing, and that requires a meta stage which I believe is our consciousness. It also answers the memory question. The experience of the consciousness gets recorded in the brain, while the soul continues to experience through the consciousness while forming it's own unique type of memory which allows for coherent persistence after the loss of the body.

**5. How should a theology of spirituality inform humanity's role in social justice issues?**
Social Justice is nothing more than politics right now. There is an objective moral right and wrong, and nothing can inform us of that but God. Those that want heaven without God will build hell.

**6. What is Christian spirituality? How do we know how to practice it?**
Christian Spirituality is nothing more than Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self Control. It's not meditating with candles, doing yoga, or a 5 step process in a book. It's loving God with all your Heart, all your Strength, all your Soul, and all your Mind.
 
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