Is the threat of hell spiritual extortion?

[Saint Steven]

We read a lot here about the free-will choice to follow Jesus.
And there is healthy debate about how that may come about, or what may be required.

But when the threat of hell is included, it no longer exists as a free-will decision.
Now we are dealing with extortion, an "or else" situation. Coercion by threat of violence.
And not just violence, but the most sadistic torture imaginable.
Assuming ECT. (eternal conscious torment)

The proponents of hell defend it tooth and claw. Seemingly oblivious to the extortion.
"Receive the gift of eternal life; or if you prefer, you will be incinerated."
A free-will choice, or spiritual extortion?

Help me to understand why this is okay.

 

[Carl Emerson]

You seem to postulate a cruel God and ask why it is OK...

How then can this thread be more than an emotional argument?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

We read a lot here about the free-will choice to follow Jesus.
And there is healthy debate about how that may come about, or what may be required.

But when the threat of hell is included, it no longer exists as a free-will decision.

Now we are dealing with extortion, an "or else" situation. Coercion by threat of violence.
And not just violence, but the most sadistic torture imaginable.
Assuming ECT. (eternal conscious torment)

The proponents of hell defend it tooth and claw. Seemingly oblivious to the extortion.
"Receive the gift of eternal life; or if you prefer, you will be incinerated."
A free-will choice, or spiritual extortion?

Help me to understand why this is okay.

Far be it from me to begin an undue debate and argument, but for me there are some preliminary clarifications that I think need to be made about the concepts at stake in this obviously important inquiry, one that I notice you keep bringing up, Steven. And until we all find the 'perfect' definitions of these ideas and the 'perfect' sources of authority by which to define them, I think we're in murky ethical waters and are far from shore in finding a clear and solid answer for your pertinent questions.

Where do you think we're supposed to start in order to address all of this? The Webster's Dictionary? The Bible? The blog pages of a few reputable law firms? The literature provided by the United Nations?

... where and from whom?

 

[Saint Steven]

You seem to postulate a cruel God and ask why it is OK...

How then can this thread be more than an emotional argument?

Postulate?
I choose not to white-wash the facts.

Didn't you say you had a vision of hell that was absolutely terrifying? (not your words)
What was your reaction when the angel invited you to go nearer? To witness the horror.
Isn't that where you believe that "lost" souls go? Do you give no warning?

Postulate? Come on, Carl.

What does the Bible say about it?
Wailing and gnashing of teeth? That sounds inviting.
The smoke of their torment rising forever?
Fire and brimstone? The Lake of Fire.

Help me to understand why this is okay.

 

[Lost Witness]

We read a lot here about the free-will choice to follow Jesus.
And there is healthy debate about how that may come about, or what may be required.

But when the threat of hell is included, it no longer exists as a free-will decision.
Now we are dealing with extortion, an "or else" situation. Coercion by threat of violence.
And not just violence, but the most sadistic torture imaginable.
Assuming ECT. (eternal conscious torment)

The proponents of hell defend it tooth and claw. Seemingly oblivious to the extortion.
"Receive the gift of eternal life; or if you prefer, you will be incinerated."
A free-will choice, or spiritual extortion?

Help me to understand why this is okay.

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

 

[Saint Steven]

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Would that include extortion and threats of violence? Seems so. Explain.

 

[Tuur]

We read a lot here about the free-will choice to follow Jesus.
And there is healthy debate about how that may come about, or what may be required.

But when the threat of hell is included, it no longer exists as a free-will decision.
Now we are dealing with extortion, an "or else" situation. Coercion by threat of violence.
And not just violence, but the most sadistic torture imaginable.
Assuming ECT. (eternal conscious torment)

The proponents of hell defend it tooth and claw. Seemingly oblivious to the extortion.
"Receive the gift of eternal life; or if you prefer, you will be incinerated."
A free-will choice, or spiritual extortion?

Help me to understand why this is okay.

If a doctor advises a patient to exercise and lose weight to help prevent future health problems, is that also extortion?

 

[Saint Steven]

You seem to postulate a cruel God and ask why it is OK...

How then can this thread be more than an emotional argument?

Your reply raises an interesting question about what place, if any, emotions play in our understanding of spiritual issues.
You seem to say, "No place." Is that right?

Seems to me that emotions are the response of the heart. Logic leaves off at the head, not reaching the heart.
Does heartless logic lead us spiritually? I hope not.

Matthew 6:21 NIV
For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

 

[Saint Steven]

If a doctor advises a patient to exercise and lose weight to help prevent future health problems, is that also extortion?

That's an interesting point.
Not unless the doctor threatened to break the patients legs if they didn't comply, I suppose.

If we tell someone that they will spend eternity in hell if they don't comply with our beliefs, is that not spiritual extortion?

 

[Tuur]

That's an interesting point.
Not unless the doctor threatened to break the patients legs if they didn't comply, I suppose.

If we tell someone that they will spend eternity in hell if they don't comply with our beliefs, is that not spiritual extortion?

No more than telling a drowning man that by grabbing a life preserver they can save their life.

 

[Saint Steven]

No more than telling a drowning man that by grabbing a life preserver they can save their life.

Are you aware that there are three biblical views of the final judgement?
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Redemption

 

[sparow]

We read a lot here about the free-will choice to follow Jesus.
And there is healthy debate about how that may come about, or what may be required.

But when the threat of hell is included, it no longer exists as a free-will decision.
Now we are dealing with extortion, an "or else" situation. Coercion by threat of violence.
And not just violence, but the most sadistic torture imaginable.
Assuming ECT. (eternal conscious torment)

The proponents of hell defend it tooth and claw. Seemingly oblivious to the extortion.
"Receive the gift of eternal life; or if you prefer, you will be incinerated."
A free-will choice, or spiritual extortion?

Help me to understand why this is okay.

I believe that hell and free choice are red herrings; there is the covenant of God that we enter into or not; most Christians abrogate that which the should enter into, and follow doctrines of men.

 

[Tuur]

Are you aware that there are three biblical views of the final judgement?
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Redemption

None of which have anything to do with your initial premise.

 

[SavedByGrace3]

We read a lot here about the free-will choice to follow Jesus.
And there is healthy debate about how that may come about, or what may be required.

But when the threat of hell is included, it no longer exists as a free-will decision.
Now we are dealing with extortion, an "or else" situation. Coercion by threat of violence.
And not just violence, but the most sadistic torture imaginable.
Assuming ECT. (eternal conscious torment)

The proponents of hell defend it tooth and claw. Seemingly oblivious to the extortion.
"Receive the gift of eternal life; or if you prefer, you will be incinerated."
A free-will choice, or spiritual extortion?

Help me to understand why this is okay.

You are driving down the road in the fog. Ahead there is a bridge that is out. I wave you down and warn you of the danger and plead with you to turn back.
Is this extortion?

 

[Lost4words]

It is us that choose hell by the life we lead.

 

[Jonaitis]

We read a lot here about the free-will choice to follow Jesus.
And there is healthy debate about how that may come about, or what may be required.

But when the threat of hell is included, it no longer exists as a free-will decision.
Now we are dealing with extortion, an "or else" situation. Coercion by threat of violence.
And not just violence, but the most sadistic torture imaginable.
Assuming ECT. (eternal conscious torment)

The proponents of hell defend it tooth and claw. Seemingly oblivious to the extortion.
"Receive the gift of eternal life; or if you prefer, you will be incinerated."
A free-will choice, or spiritual extortion?

Help me to understand why this is okay.

I disagree, as there have been many believers, including my conversion years ago, where hell was a push, but not the force, that brought men to god. This is often an assertion of unbelievers who have not experienced the transformation of god's grace through the biblical preaching of law and grace. If someone came to faith by coercion via the concept of hell, I always question their profession.

 

[bling]

We read a lot here about the free-will choice to follow Jesus.
And there is healthy debate about how that may come about, or what may be required.

But when the threat of hell is included, it no longer exists as a free-will decision.
Now we are dealing with extortion, an "or else" situation. Coercion by threat of violence.
And not just violence, but the most sadistic torture imaginable.
Assuming ECT. (eternal conscious torment)

The proponents of hell defend it tooth and claw. Seemingly oblivious to the extortion.
"Receive the gift of eternal life; or if you prefer, you will be incinerated."
A free-will choice, or spiritual extortion?

Help me to understand why this is okay.

First off: the choice we are making is not between heaven and hell with annihilation.

The autonomous free will choice we do make results in a ton of wonderful Gifts including eternal life or hell with annihilation.

People who do not believe in the Christian God, would not believe in “hell”, so there is no threat of hell for them. If you do truly believe (trust the Christian God) to the point of being just willing to humbly accept pure sacrificial undeserved charity in the form of forgiveness then they are not going to hell. Hell does let us know how unbelievable huge the debt we are forgiven of, so we can automatically Love much (Godly type Love) Luke 7. Hell also helps some to accept quickly and not just hold off accepting.

You cannot just threaten people with hell, because they will not believe such a place exists without first believing in God/Christ.

• Yes God’s Love is not a knee jerk reaction and is a thought-out free will choice God makes, but that does not mean God is void of emotion, since God is like the father of the prodigal son.
• Hate is not the opposite of Love, you can hate and Love the person at the same, like Jesus commanding us to hate our families, yet Love them at the same time.
• Allowing some truly bad things to happen to one person in order to help another person does not mean you do not Love the person bad stuff is happening to, like God really Loved Christ, but allowed really bad stuff to happen to Christ in order to help willing individuals to accept His Love.
• Hell does not help or discipline the people that go to hell, but since prior they have reached the point of never willingly accepting God’s pure undeserved charity/Love in the form of forgiveness and will never, God will at least use them to do some good for others still able to choose to accept God’s Love. Another words God will use children He Loves to at least do some good in helping some other children He Loves.
• Look at the story of “The Rich man and Lazarus”: God Loved the rich man and provided at great cost the rich man every day with the very best opportunity to experience Godly type Love with Lazarus. This was really hard on God and Lazarus, but God Loved the rich man.
• God promised me hell if I did not accept His Love as pure undeserved charity and since I came to believe in Christ and God I also believed in His promises and God not lying. If no one went to hell then God would be a liar, so God has to allow some people to go to hell and experience the second death (annihilation after some time).

Hell does not help or discipline the people that go to hell, but prior, those that go to heel, have reached the point of never willingly accepting God’s pure undeserved charity/Love in the form of forgiveness and will never, God will at least use them to do some good for others still able to choose to accept God’s Love. Another words God will use children He Loves to at least do some good in helping some other children He Loves.

Look at the story of “The Rich man and Lazarus”: God Loved the rich man and provided at great cost the rich man every day with the very best opportunity to experience Godly type Love with Lazarus. This was really hard on God and Lazarus, but God Loved the rich man. The rich man did not complain in hell about being treated unfairly.

If “hell” was just temporary prior to going to heaven, that would make the debt of sin finite (a slap on the hand), so from what we are taught by Jesus in Luke 7, he that is forgiven little loves little, so you would get little love from God’s forgiveness, but if sin is made to be an unbelievable huge offence creating and unbelievable huge debt (not payable by even Christ’s death) then God forgiving this unbelievable huge debt would automatically result in an unbelievable huge Love (a Godly type Love)) and that is the first part of our objective (obtaining this Love).

I am promised hell if I did not accept His Love as pure undeserved charity and since I came to believe in Christ and God I also believed in His promises and God not lying. If no one went to hell then God would be a liar, so God has to allow some people to go to hell and experience the second death (annihilation after some time).

 

[Saint Steven]

None of which have anything to do with your initial premise.

On the contrary.
All three are biblical, and all three are contradictory. Which one is true?

Saint Steven said:
Are you aware that there are three biblical views of the final judgement?
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Redemption

 

[Jesse Dornfeld]

Help me to understand why this is okay.

Some are predestined to salvation from before the foundation of the world. Others have a way in through the great commission.

Explain to me why anyone should care about evangelizing if everyone goes to heaven?

 

[Saint Steven]

You are driving down the road in the fog. Ahead there is a bridge that is out. I wave you down and warn you of the danger and plead with you to turn back.
Is this extortion?

No, that's not extortion.
If you told that there was an ogre on the bridge that would throw me off if I tried to cross, that would be extortion, I suppose.