I need some advice

ROFL!!!

And now, introducing the opening act tonight, "Sodomic Desires!"

ArmyMatt said:

I hope not, my mom is an art teacher....

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

ROFL!!!

And now, introducing the opening act tonight, "Sodomic Desires!"

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

If it's drama, art, music, etc. doesn't the teacher have to be gay?

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What I'm really tempted to do is just say nothing and leave.

But I will say that it is very wrong to wholly mischaracterize my very real concern, even by humorous exaggeration.

What I see is that you all now take as widespread and normal the open presence of homosexuals everywhere.
I use that term, though it is also historically recent euphemism, out of deference to your inability to see what is wrong with using the expression "be gay" despite my efforts to explain how euphemisms advance and support the spread of wickedness in general, and for the sake of brevity.
You all - those that have dismissed my ideas - don't seem to see that it is not going to stop at this, that this spread of the evil is going to progress, nor that it does matter what our children are exposed to outside the doors of our homes, and that in tolerating the public atmosphere (as long as we have any influence on that atmosphere in political or economic terms) we bear responsibility for that.

I realize that we can't save others by force, and that in a real sense all we can do is work out our own salvation. Nevertheless, we are also commanded to be, not only as harmless as doves, but also as wise as serpents, and part of that means trying to see and understand what is happening, and how we can, for the sake of our neighbor, best react to that, in action and words.

rusmeister said:

What I'm really tempted to do is just say nothing and leave.

But I will say that it is very wrong to wholly mischaracterize my very real concern, even by humorous exaggeration.

What I see is that you all now take as widespread and normal the open presence of homosexuals everywhere.
I use that term, though it is also historically recent euphemism, out of deference to your inability to see what is wrong with using the expression "be gay" despite my efforts to explain how euphemisms advance and support the spread of wickedness in general, and for the sake of brevity.
You all - those that have dismissed my ideas - don't seem to see that it is not going to stop at this, that this spread of the evil is going to progress, nor that it does matter what our children are exposed to outside the doors of our homes, and that in tolerating the public atmosphere (as long as we have any influence on that atmosphere in political or economic terms) we bear responsibility for that.

I realize that we can't save others by force, and that in a real sense all we can do is work out our own salvation. Nevertheless, we are also commanded to be, not only as harmless as doves, but also as wise as serpents, and part of that means trying to see and understand what is happening, and how we can, for the sake of our neighbor, best react to that, in action and words.

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Perhaps another way to word this is that this step by the Boy Scouts is the first step down a path that will ultimately lead to the active promotion and endorsement of LGBTQ lifestyles as a requirement to be in the Boy Scouts, which will result in the Boy Scouts being a means of indoctrinating our children. This is not a single, isolated event; it is part of a larger picture. It is not just recognizing that there are gay people in the Boy Scouts. It is about giving way to a lie that will creep in until it has taken over. The LGBTQ community is not interested in simply being tolerated; they want us to publicly celebrate their validity and this will not end until they have won that victory. The Boy Scouts are just one private organization that has been strongarmed into capitulating to them. More will follow. And before we know it we won't be able to be part of anything, public or private, without being forced to publicly celebrate homosexual behavior and lifestyles.

Sure, we're not there yet. But the road is being paved right before our eyes, and it is only a matter of time.

rusmeister said:

Well, the term did not exist twenty-five years ago, S4C. Explain that.

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The word monotheism didn't exist as a concept in the English language until 1660. Are you suggesting that monotheism didn't exist in the English speaking world before 1660?

Not sure if you're talking to me or others, Rus, but I assume it's me since you're quoting me.

I try to joke with you sometimes to ease tension and try to be friendly. But as time goes by, I just see you don't know how to joke around or get humor. It's the Vulcan in you.

I think you're wound way too tight, mate. You're trying to play Noah in here telling us the flood of gays are coming and it's doomsday. I hear ya. The thing is, you act as if you're the only one here who realizes the power that society and the media are giving those with "sodomic desires." Sorry, that phrase still gives me the giggles. Yes, I'm sure it'll irk you to no end and cause you to hate me more, but I can't help it. It's hilarious.

My point is, you think you're the only one who can read between the lines, but you're not. We're all smart enough and prayerful enough to know the world is turning. We know the world is going in the way of darkness and despair, and sexuality has been perverted in not only the act itself but in how we use words to characterize it. We know that the world has become manipulative and untrustworthy. No argument.

But what you seem to think is that we shouldn't allow our kids to participate in just about anything and everything. Frankly, I was shocked you let your kids see Iron Giant. With the high levels of distrust and paranoia you have about the media and film industry, etc. etc. I'm surprised you'd even consider looking at the sleeve of the DVD let alone recommend it.

MKJ I think nails it when she says we can't keep our kids living in a bubble just for fear they'll run into a gay kid or some gay person somewhere. They can't be a Seinfeldian bubble boy forever and naïve and sheltered into oblivion.

Some of us don't think a kid looking for a Webelo badge going through a scouting book and hanging out with other cubscouts will automatically run into male strippers and kinky perverts. If we thought our kids would be running into a lot of this stuff, we'd keep them out of it.

You have wisdom in your posts and I especially find your emphasis on language helpful and insightful. I think in many ways you're a courageous man with solid, sincere, powerful convictions. You're a credit to the Orthodox faith. But remember your brand of parenting isn't for everyone. Not everyone is going to go homeschool their kids. So from your point of view any other choice is absolutely vile. Anyone who watches the movies you don't like is a lost soul, and anyone who disagrees with silly things like the cub scouts is a fool. You've gone on record saying you have issues with your own kids and some serious frustrations. Your parenting, like the rest of us, isn't perfect. So I'm not sure what qualifies one to dictate parenting to others on here? I think when we've raised awesome kids who are now older and active, practicing, on-fire Orthodox Christians, we have some room to dictate to others, but if we're having our own agendas falling through, are we in a good place to judge and point fingers?

rusmeister said:

What I'm really tempted to do is just say nothing and leave.

But I will say that it is very wrong to wholly mischaracterize my very real concern, even by humorous exaggeration.

What I see is that you all now take as widespread and normal the open presence of homosexuals everywhere.
I use that term, though it is also historically recent euphemism, out of deference to your inability to see what is wrong with using the expression "be gay" despite my efforts to explain how euphemisms advance and support the spread of wickedness in general, and for the sake of brevity.
You all - those that have dismissed my ideas - don't seem to see that it is not going to stop at this, that this spread of the evil is going to progress, nor that it does matter what our children are exposed to outside the doors of our homes, and that in tolerating the public atmosphere (as long as we have any influence on that atmosphere in political or economic terms) we bear responsibility for that.

I realize that we can't save others by force, and that in a real sense all we can do is work out our own salvation. Nevertheless, we are also commanded to be, not only as harmless as doves, but also as wise as serpents, and part of that means trying to see and understand what is happening, and how we can, for the sake of our neighbor, best react to that, in action and words.

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gurneyhalleck1 said:

Not sure if you're talking to me or others, Rus, but I assume it's me since you're quoting me.

I try to joke with you sometimes to ease tension and try to be friendly. But as time goes by, I just see you don't know how to joke around or get humor. It's the Vulcan in you.

I think you're wound way too tight, mate. You're trying to play Noah in here telling us the flood of gays are coming and it's doomsday. I hear ya. The thing is, you act as if you're the only one here who realizes the power that society and the media are giving those with "sodomic desires." Sorry, that phrase still gives me the giggles. Yes, I'm sure it'll irk you to no end and cause you to hate me more, but I can't help it. It's hilarious.

My point is, you think you're the only one who can read between the lines, but you're not. We're all smart enough and prayerful enough to know the world is turning. We know the world is going in the way of darkness and despair, and sexuality has been perverted in not only the act itself but in how we use words to characterize it. We know that the world has become manipulative and untrustworthy. No argument.

But what you seem to think is that we shouldn't allow our kids to participate in just about anything and everything. Frankly, I was shocked you let your kids see Iron Giant. With the high levels of distrust and paranoia you have about the media and film industry, etc. etc. I'm surprised you'd even consider looking at the sleeve of the DVD let alone recommend it.

MKJ I think nails it when she says we can't keep our kids living in a bubble just for fear they'll run into a gay kid or some gay person somewhere. They can't be a Seinfeldian bubble boy forever and naïve and sheltered into oblivion.

Some of us don't think a kid looking for a Webelo badge going through a scouting book and hanging out with other cubscouts will automatically run into male strippers and kinky perverts. If we thought our kids would be running into a lot of this stuff, we'd keep them out of it.

You have wisdom in your posts and I especially find your emphasis on language helpful and insightful. I think in many ways you're a courageous man with solid, sincere, powerful convictions. You're a credit to the Orthodox faith. But remember your brand of parenting isn't for everyone. Not everyone is going to go homeschool their kids. So from your point of view any other choice is absolutely vile. Anyone who watches the movies you don't like is a lost soul, and anyone who disagrees with silly things like the cub scouts is a fool. You've gone on record saying you have issues with your own kids and some serious frustrations. Your parenting, like the rest of us, isn't perfect. So I'm not sure what qualifies one to dictate parenting to others on here? I think when we've raised awesome kids who are now older and active, practicing, on-fire Orthodox Christians, we have some room to dictate to others, but if we're having our own agendas falling through, are we in a good place to judge and point fingers?

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Hey, Gurney,
I think there are many misunderstandings that are caused by the mere fact of people who don't know each other personally communicating in electronic fora.

I think that, to the extent possible, we should try to understand the positions of others as correctly as possible. I bolded the text above where I think you seriously misunderstand me. I am among those who don't think that a kid looking for a Webelo badge will automatically run into male strippers and kinky perverts. But I DO think they are going to have the issue of sexuality shoved in their faces, merely by the casual mention of it, with the accompanying assumption that it should be seen as both casual and normal, and in the incarnate form of a person claiming - or having parents or parodies of the same claim it for them and demanding that it be accepted by the rest of you under penalty of the law.

I DON'T think I'm the only one who can read between the lines. I expect everyone to, especially when it is pointed out to them. I don't expect them to deny the very existence of the lines.
And I don't hate you, let alone "more". I'm saddened.

I can see good things in SOME worldly things. That I recommend The Iron Giant ought to be proof that I do not advocate completely shutting out the world, what you characterize as "a bubble". But children DO need to be protected from some things, as I'm sure you'll agree, and innocence, along with wisdom, are under attack. The innocence of children is a precious thing, and it is rapidly being lost.

For now, and maybe for a year or two or three, you can send your kids to the Scouts and maybe nothing will happen. But sooner or later it will. This sexualization of children, as Shieldmaiden pointed out, in believing they have "an orientation" is proceeding apace and hardly anyone will escape this stripping of the innocence of children, especially if the parents do not think it a serious threat.


Gandalf:

I do not ask for pardon, Master Elrond, for the Black Speech of Mordor may yet be heard in every corner of the West!

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sexuality being shoved in kids faces is nothing new. yeah, the speech has been updated to be sure, but the acts of people who engage in illicit behavior has been around since Noah. if the gays can use this as a venue to push their agenda, why can't we?

Nice quote by Gandalf. Every post should contain a little LOTR if you ask me!

I disagree, Rus. I don't think that every kid in the Scouts is going to have sexuality shoved in his face, especially at this point in time. Think about what happens at Cub Scouts....did you belong to it as a kid? I would assume so, since you seem to be interested in the topic. I was in it for years. We met, said a prayer, talked about upcoming opportunities to master certain skills, go to the local park and clean x, y, and z up, we talked about Christmas carrolling to the elderly at the retirement home, having projects due by a certain date, and the importance of conservation, etc. We talked about optional hikes, merit badges, yada yada. We went on little field trips, too. We never had a den leader stand up and say, "so who makes you feel randy?" "What do you guys think of same-sex unions?" or "the gay legendary folk hero of the day is...."

I agree with you that the gay agenda is WAY out of control. Pretty soon we'll have gay characters in the X-Men, Avengers, Justice League, and most likely Robin will be gay (actually his costume is a touch flamboyant already, no?). And when that time comes, Gurney stops letting his kids watch that stuff. The comics are already going in that direction with gay characters. That's why my kids only are allowed to read THE OLD comics I have and continue to collect.

Right now many TV shows are starting to go gay-happy. I quit watching them. But not all shows have the agenda. "The Walking Dead," for example, had no gay characters nor did stuff like "Lost." As a result, I watch those shows. When the sodomic desires kick in, Gurney bails.

I also think that sometimes we fail to view the PARENTAL element in these things. My kids are being educated morally by my wife and myself at home constantly. I take every single opportunity with my kids to talk over moral issues. I also clarify theological differences we have with Protestants, Catholics, and other non-Orthodox folks. And personally, at the first sign of rainbow talk at the Cub Scouts, I'd yank my kid. But after yanking, I'd explain the disordered nature of what he or she was taught. That being said, I don't think that will be an issue in my area.

I do understand what you're saying, Rus. You're saying that it won't necessarily be a BLATANT, in-your-face rub of gayness, but rather the mere acceptance of it will be subtle, casual, and like a slow IV drip at the hospital entering their system. Personally again, I disagree on this particular instance (I agree with you at the public school level, please note, because that is now legally on the road to being quite overt!) because I just don't see that agenda in the Scouts yet, especially locally, and I doubt an 8-year-old is going to process much less notice some of that stuff. I think we give them a bit too much credit. My son would probably see two men and think they're uncles or family friends or heaven knows what?

But we DO need to prepare ourselves for the reality that we live in persecution now. What if I enroll my kids in basketball (I just did, btw) and a gay couple shows up pulling for their kid and the kid says, "I love you dad and dad!" My son is going to see it. Should I keep him out of basketball for fear of him seeing a gay dude? Or how about my daughter who wants to start dance class (again, she will in Spring)? What if a couple of lesbians show up to watch their kid dance? My daughter might notice that....out of my control.

The bubble thing is a legitimate argument because I think your subtle induction concerns are less a factor than the real-life in your face concerns! And by that I mean that most kids have a better chance of SEEING a gay couple out and about just during the course of life than they do discovering it because, at a national level, the Supreme Court ruled in favor of some gays. We can't live in a bubble. At some point we have to remember that God put us in charge as parents, a SOLEMN charge not to be taken lightly. We then realize that the Holy Spirit is blessing and inspiring us to use teachable moments with our kids to explain (if it warrants it) that the gay agenda is WRONG. I have already had to point out to my kids that cohabitation is a sin. They are very in tune with that. I keep the sex part out of it (obviously) but my kids have noticed the living together stuff and find it repugnant and evil. I also talk to them about the problem with divorce and how it's not God's will. They are in tune with that.

I think we can't underestimate the parent side of things not just to shelter and hide and forbid our kids from joining pretty much everything, avoiding the Seinfeldian bubble boy thing, and just being

a) cautious
b) common sense
c) prayerful!
d) using our wits and holy teachings to explain and educate, guide

rusmeister said:

Hey, Gurney,
I think there are many misunderstandings that are caused by the mere fact of people who don't know each other personally communicating in electronic fora.

I think that, to the extent possible, we should try to understand the positions of others as correctly as possible. I bolded the text above where I think you seriously misunderstand me. I am among those who don't think that a kid looking for a Webelo badge will automatically run into male strippers and kinky perverts. But I DO think they are going to have the issue of sexuality shoved in their faces, merely by the casual mention of it, with the accompanying assumption that it should be seen as both casual and normal, and in the incarnate form of a person claiming - or having parents or parodies of the same claim it for them and demanding that it be accepted by the rest of you under penalty of the law.

I DON'T think I'm the only one who can read between the lines. I expect everyone to, especially when it is pointed out to them. I don't expect them to deny the very existence of the lines.
And I don't hate you, let alone "more". I'm saddened.

I can see good things in SOME worldly things. That I recommend The Iron Giant ought to be proof that I do not advocate completely shutting out the world, what you characterize as "a bubble". But children DO need to be protected from some things, as I'm sure you'll agree, and innocence, along with wisdom, are under attack. The innocence of children is a precious thing, and it is rapidly being lost.

For now, and maybe for a year or two or three, you can send your kids to the Scouts and maybe nothing will happen. But sooner or later it will. This sexualization of children, as Shieldmaiden pointed out, in believing they have "an orientation" is proceeding apace and hardly anyone will escape this stripping of the innocence of children, especially if the parents do not think it a serious threat.


Gandalf:

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Certainly their position doesn't make any difference. One doesn't choose their sexual orientation but in most cases it's "selected" for them since their birth. Now, in the Orthodox Church, we absolutely affirm that a marriage is to take place between one man and one woman, and that sexual marrital acts are only to take place in the sanctified unity of a man and a woman in marriage.

If some other people, not belonging to the Christian Church, teach or condone other teachings in relation to human sexuality and marriage, I do not see this personally as a huge threat.

I'm very doubtful of the idea that someone would "turn gay" because of some liberal teaching that accepts homosexuality as a proper sexual orientation. If you raise your children according to the teachings of the Holy Scripture and Tradition, I do not see much threat that a thing like this would sway them from their path to salvation.

tapi said:

If some other people, not belonging to the Christian Church, teach or condone other teachings in relation to human sexuality and marriage, I do not see this personally as a huge threat.

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You are a grown-up adult who has the maturity to make right choices.
Wait till you have children who are not, and said other people control your children's schooling and media (certainly outside your home) and try to teach your children.

If YOU will not turn to the Dark Side, then perhaps she WILL.

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Darth Vader

tapi said:

I'm very doubtful of the idea that someone would "turn gay" because of some liberal teaching that accepts homosexuality as a proper sexual orientation. If you raise your children according to the teachings of the Holy Scripture and Tradition, I do not see much threat that a thing like this would sway them from their path to salvation.

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Only I don't see ANYBODY here saying "people will turn gay". Do you?
If that's what you're reading into what I say, no wonder you all object. I only wish you would respond to what I DO say, rather than what I DON'T.

You seem to think that the outside world has no serious influence on your children. When they are two or three, it is true that that influence is small. But when they are ten or twelve it becomes huge, and in our time, an easy one in material terms (unlike times when we are ravaged by war, which has been, for the US, 150 years), the tendency is for children to REJECT parental authority in their teens, and they are actively encouraged in this in our individualistic society, which divides us all into individuals, isolated like atoms.

It is a salutary thing for nearly all adults to have teenage children. There is a reason why Church canons require a priest to be thirty, and if I had my way, a mandatory qualification for politicians and rulers/decision-makers would be to have had teenage children. It does teach one about the influence of the outside world in a way that our own direct experience does not, and those who make our laws ought to be fully aware of that.
How does it do that? Well, we approve for ourselves what we know we ought not to (sin), what we do not approve in others, especially in our children, who we love more than anyone. That's why most of us are "liberal when we are twenty and conservative when we are forty". We want freedom for ourselves to do wrong, but we don't want others to - because we know it is wrong. We thought, for example, that pornography was exciting, forbidden fruit when we were 14 (nowadays, ten or eleven). Now we (or some of us) understand its destructive power. We wanted it to be readily available to us at 16 or 18. Now, at 32 or 36, we don't want it to be available to anyone, and rightly so.

it does feel though sometimes rus, that you are the only parent looking at this objectively and rationally, and if any other parent with teens disagrees with what you say, they just are not looking at it right enough or they need to learn.

at least that is how it comes across sometimes.

ArmyMatt said:

it does feel though sometimes rus, that you are the only parent looking at this objectively and rationally, and if any other parent with teens disagrees with what you say, they just are not looking at it right enough or they need to learn.

at least that is how it comes across sometimes.

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Arrogance is not intended. There is a difference between thinking oneself superior and thinking oneself right.
Is there anything wrong in what I have said?

rusmeister said:

Arrogance is not intended. There is a difference between thinking oneself superior and thinking oneself right.
Is there anything wrong in what I have said?

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I know you well enough to know it's not intended rus, it's just how it comes across.

as far as anything wrong, well I would say that depends on the parent. I was not much of a rebel in my teen years (neither were my brother and sister), because it was pretty obvious that even when we might not have agreed, we knew that our folks were wiser and had our best interest at heart. since that started from day one, we never really went off the deep end, even though stuff like sex and drugs were being shoved in our faces. I just got married a few weeks ago, and I waited for my wife, and she waited for me.

so I think too many of these are dependent on the parent's role at home to early on correct the wrong doings of the fallen world, even when teens are engaged in it.

rusmeister said:

Arrogance is not intended. There is a difference between thinking oneself superior and thinking oneself right.
Is there anything wrong in what I have said?

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Everyone things themselves right, or they would not think it. The issue is having the perspective to see that no matter how right something seems to you, you might be misunderstanding it, and the other guy might be right after all. He might know more about it, have an insight you didn't, an experience you haven't, whatever. You might both be wrong, or both partly right.

And that includes how you understand things that someone has told you "objectively". Yeah, the Church might have the truth, but we can all misunderstand what she says about it.

When that fact is kept in mind, it changes your whole attitude to other people. You have to respect that other people's POV might have something to teach you, that you might be way off even. Their experience or interpretation is not necessarily less likely than yours.

It puts a whole new interest into discussions too. You can discuss n idea with a lot of gusto with someone who disagrees, and not only because you might convince the other person, but because you might be convinced yourself. Or you might both come to some better understanding than either of you had before. You aren't just telling people things - which is often why people find your posts and threads difficult - it is a mutual attempt to come to a better understanding.

It also makes those discussions less threatening. If someone argues something you disagree with, you don't have to be afraid of losing "the truth" if you are convinced, or if your own argument seems inadequate. It may be that you didn't quite have the truth in the first place, or not all of it. If it turns out that is the case, it only shows that you don't know everything, something we should realize already.

It gets really annoying to constantly have someone tell you things because they are correct, and if you don't immediately agree you are being blind or don't have the "right" beliefs. Well, why is it any one person has special access to "correctness".

Shieldmaiden4Christ said:

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Thank goodness for rainbows - regardless of what others seek to make them out to be....

...

knee-v said:

Perhaps another way to word this is that this step by the Boy Scouts is the first step down a path that will ultimately lead to the active promotion and endorsement of LGBTQ lifestyles as a requirement to be in the Boy Scouts, which will result in the Boy Scouts being a means of indoctrinating our children. This is not a single, isolated event; it is part of a larger picture. It is not just recognizing that there are gay people in the Boy Scouts. It is about giving way to a lie that will creep in until it has taken over. The LGBTQ community is not interested in simply being tolerated; they want us to publicly celebrate their validity and this will not end until they have won that victory. The Boy Scouts are just one private organization that has been strongarmed into capitulating to them. More will follow. And before we know it we won't be able to be part of anything, public or private, without being forced to publicly celebrate homosexual behavior and lifestyles.

Sure, we're not there yet. But the road is being paved right before our eyes, and it is only a matter of time.

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Yes, and thank you!

Fr some reason, I only saw this post just now...

27B6 said:

The only scout handbook a boy needs

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Succinct!

This popped up on my fb feed, I thought it was timely.

TrailLifeUSA.com

There is a write up on the Orthodoxnet.com blog about it.

I was in the GSA, all of my male cousins have been or are currently Scouts. All of them making Eagle scout by 14, BSA is big with us. My husband and I will not be putting our sons thru the program. I remember being taught as a Junior (4th grade) about masturbation and all kinds of bodily changes. More recent "lessons" talk about how "some girls enjoy" using drugs when they "explore" it's all green lighted in the name of "exploration" and "liberation." Check out the back of the manual and notice that Planned Parenthood is a sponsor. I'm sure had I shown my mother the pamphlet she would have yanked me quickly. I ended up dropping out because of a terrible leader/overbearing mother of a girl in the troop. Regardless of what your position, it is NOT the GSA or BSA's place to instruct kids about this stuff. Especially w/o parental notification. At least in Public school 5th grade sex-ed they were given the option of having us sit out. I grew up in small town Texas it was and is by no means a bastion of liberality.

I'm sad our boys won't be a part of something that our family has been involved in for so long. I think we'll find a copy of the 1911 BSA manual and call it good. Have the boys work through that with my husband and other male members of our family.