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I know a man...

miknik5

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Sure. Including the parts where the Scripture directly quotes Satan. God inspired the author of each piece of Scripture to write it. That's what "God breathed" means. It does not mean that every word in Scripture is of equal authority to every other word in Scripture, obviously. In fact, God made a point, when he inspired to authors of Scripture to write things down, to make sure that they specifically identified each time that God himself speaks, or when his Son speaks. That the speaker is Elohiym, or YHWH, or the Father, or Jesus, or an angel, is always very explicitly identified (except in the case of a couple of the prophets, where the Prophet takes up the first person "I" when speaking of God, and is clearly channelling God and being God's mouthpiece.

God has a coherent and consistent and oft-repeated set of messages in Scripture. Those words are embedded in a lot of explanatory material, background material, and enthusiastic material of writers praising God and loving God, or writing hymns to God (the Psalms and the like).

The binding authority - the parts of Scripture that are God telling you what you have to DO - THOSE are all spelled out what a "God said..." or "Jesus said...".

So no, it's not a sin, for example, or a disgrace, for a man to have long hair. Jesus had long hair. Paul didn't like long hair, or at least he didn't like it in one specific Church. Paul's opinion may have been valid for that Church, or it may have been a matter of taste. His taste is irrelevant, it's not a commandment, and it is false to ascribe Paul's opinion to God or say "God said long hair is a disgrace", because Paul wrote that an all Scripture is God breathed. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of what divine inspiration is, and of how God inspired the authors to faithfully record what God said when God spoke directly. He did that for a REASON.

All Scripture is God breathed. Including the parts that quote Satan. That does not mean that all Scripture is binding law. Only the parts that come from God and SAY they're binding law, are binding law.
The testimony of JESUS is the spirit of prophecy

What that means is that every word of scripture spoke of and pointed to CHRIST
 
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Vicomte13

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All scripture is to reveal what GOD chooses to reveal and has revealed by HIS SPIRIT to those men HE used who wrote down HIS WORD just as HE had revealed it

You're talking too much and saying nothing

I'm trying to teach you something important that you do not understand, which is the reason why you think the things you do. But you're unpleasant, so we're not going to talk anymore. Goodbye.
 
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Your Alli

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I'm sure you didn't mean to say that we are to accept Christ as our son

Right?

I mean you should ...

Every male species should.

Christ is continuously quoted in the Gospels by the following ...
"I am the Son of Man .."
"When the Son of Man returns ..."
and this continues through out each gospel.

Therefore a man, firstly accepts Christ as his son and then secondly humbly accepts the privilege of the life he is given.

Your Alli
 
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miknik5

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I mean you should ...

Every male species should.

Christ is continuously quoted in the Gospels by the following ...
"I am the Son of Man .."
"When the Son of Man returns ..."
and this continues through out each gospel.

Therefore a man, firstly accepts Christ as his son and then secondly humbly accepts the privilege of the life he is given.

Your Alli
You can't

If he's THE SON OF MSN that means HE is first and before All things created

HE came forth and into the world yes

But from GOD, THE FATHER
 
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dayofgrace

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I'm trying to teach you something important that you do not understand, which is the reason why yo
You can't

If he's THE SON OF MSN that means HE is first and before All things created

HE came forth and into the world yes

But from GOD, THE FATHER
We all see through a glass darkly.
 
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Your Alli

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You can't

If he's THE SON OF MAN that means HE is first and before All things created

HE came forth and into the world yes

But from GOD, THE FATHER


I understand.

Accept Him... (Christ) as your Lord and love the Lord with your all ...
Matt 22:37
Mark 12:30
Luke 10:27

With respect to Paul in 2 Corinthians 12, thats what he understood.
This understanding filled him with joy daily, to ensure he completed the task which was asked of him.

Your Alli
 
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Paul resorts to boasting about himself

And says as much beginning at the end of 2 Corinthians 11

He tells the believers you want to listen to the boasting of these "super apostles". (Though it's not the LORD's way when a man boasts in himself) then I'm going to do the same thing

He talks about his sufferings and his escapes and then he goes onto signs and miracles and revelations
This us when he begins and continues talking about boasts and changes to "I know a man"

After talking about "this man he knows" who was taken to the third heaven he talks about receiving a Thorn to keep him from becoming conceited

About what?
About boasting about another man's experience in heaven?

He was not taking about another man's experience


He was even calling himself a fool but you drive me to this he tells the church that his boasting is foolish

He was talking about himself and hated that he has to resort to this to validate his position before false super puffed up "apostles" who were sullying his name as unimpressive
Let's analyse the passage:

"I go on to visions and revelations from the Lord"
Paul is introducing the topic that he is now going to discuss.
"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows."
He is saying here that he knows a man who was caught up to the third heaven. He didn't know how it happened. If it was actually Paul, he would have known whether in the body or out of the body. The literal interpretation of this is that he is speaking of someone he knows who has related the vision to him. There is no indication at this stage that he is talking about himself. There is no sub-text to Paul's writing in general. He says what he means and means what he says, so we can trust that what he is saying is what we are reading, and not some "between the lines" inference that he is talking about himself.
"And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows--was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell."
Paul goes on with the description of the man's vision. He is still referring to someone other than himself.
Now here is a key verse that we should not ignore:

"I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses."
Paul is saying that he will boast about a man who has visions like that, but he will not boast about himself, rather he will make a big deal about his own weaknesses. He does that when he talks of the shipwrecks, hunger, stonings and other persecutions that he had to cope with. Right at the start of the book he said that he was so hard pressed in Asia that he despaired of life. This verse clearly tells us that Paul was not speaking of himself when he described the man who had the visions. The problem is that people read into the Scripture what they want to see instead of what is actually there.
"Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say,"
This is telling us that Paul is actually not boasting at all, because he says that if he chose to boast, he would be telling the truth, but he is refraining from boasting so that people won't think of him more than the person he actually is. To say that Paul is making some sort of underhanded boasting statement about having a vision and downplaying it because of some supposed humility to making Paul out to be deceptive and therefore untrustworthy. If that is so, we have to cut out all of Paul's letters from our Bibles because we cannot depend on him telling the truth anywhere. I would rather believe that the theory that Paul was talking about himself about some sort of vision he had is a load of codswollop thought up by some silly dream from a person who is comprehension challenged, than to believe that all of Paul's writing is untrustworthy. I was a teacher of reading to young students, and I taught comprehension. I would say that those young students were more competent at basic comprehension than the people who are saying that Paul is talking about himself when describing the man with the vision.
"or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me."
Paul does not say that these revelations were actually given to him. He is still referring to the other person who received the revelations. Instead of great revelations, the Lord has given Paul a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble and remind him that there is no good in him and his only claim to fame is what Jesus did on the cross for him and His mercy in revealing Himself to Paul on the Damascus Road.
"Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it way, but He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly in my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest on me."
So, instead of using the other man's revelations to spur him on to boasting about revelations that he might have had, he chooses not to follow the other man's examples but to boast about his weaknesses instead.

There is no way that anyone can interpret the passage any other way than what Paul literally wrote. Bible scholars, and I don't care how eminent or qualified they are, are in error and are misleading their readers if they say that Paul is talking about himself.
 
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We don't know. Paul did. Could have been the Apostle John. Could be that Paul is alluding to John's experience that gave us John's Apocalypse.

Now, this is more believable, because John did have the experience that Paul describes. I haven't thought of John before. You have shown me something I didn't know and caused me to have a much better understanding of the passage.

I think that Paul held John in very high regard because John was one of the original Apostles, where Paul describes himself as being appointed "out of time" by the Lord. Paul also is painfully aware that he persecuted the Church before his conversion, while John was close to the Lord, knew Him personally over three years, and remained totally faithful to Him. I think that Paul felt inferior to John, and although he referred to John's revelatory experiences, he could not promote himself to be John's equal.
 
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Strong in Him

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If someone were to tell you that Paul diluted GOD's WORD and used deception to gather to himself a following, looking more to glorify himself and his own self serving agenda, would you believe them?

No.
 
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All Scripture is God breathed. Including the parts that quote Satan. That does not mean that all Scripture is binding law. Only the parts that come from God and SAY they're binding law, are binding law.

All scripture is to reveal what GOD chooses to reveal and has revealed by HIS SPIRIT to those men HE used who wrote down HIS WORD just as HE had revealed it

You're talking too much and saying nothing

What we need to do is to determine which Scriptures are written for us and not necessarily to us and what is written directly to us.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians on marriage for a particular reason. The Corinthians had this notion that the single life was the most spiritual (this is why celibacy is required of RCC priests) and so quite a number of married members were divorcing their wives so that they could be single again. Paul expressly said that if a man could not contain his sexual desires he should marry. I think that applies to 99 percent of men. I believe that the 49 per cent of RCC priests who have had sex with woman or young boys were not able to contain their sexual desire but because they were forced into celibacy if they wanted to be in the priesthood, they had no outlet, therefore they succumbed to temptation. Any religious outfit that teaches that the single life is more spiritual and forbids marriage is setting men up for failure and are ignoring what Paul taught about sexual desire and marriage.

So, I believe that Paul's teaching on divorce was to the Corinthians but for us and not necessarily to us. To be divorced from your spouse because you think you are closer to God being single, is totally wrong and anyone who does that needs to repent and to get right with God by reconciling and remarrying their wife.

But to apply Paul's teaching to a victim of serious domestic violence, desertion, or adultery, was not mentioned by Paul in his teaching and therefore divorce for these reasons is not opposed by him, otherwise, Paul being Paul. he would have extended his teaching to make things more plain to his readers.

This is not the beginning of a debate on marriage, but more of a correct interpretation of Scripture through good hermaneutics. And so competent hermaneutics is directly related to the topic of this thread.
 
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Possibly Paul himself.
Does it matter?

Not really. I have argued against the notion that it was Paul himself because it shows up that people just don't read their Bible correctly and when it comes to reading the Bible, fall short in basic comprehension skills. I know that part of the skill of comprehension is inference, and I think that the theory that it was Paul who had the revelation springs from an inferential comprehension of the passage. But Paul is not one who uses inference in his writing. He is straight up and expects that people who read his letters take what he is saying literally. There are no "deeper" meanings in anything Paul wrote. What you see is what you get. People who base their interpretation on inference are in effect rewriting the Bible to suit their own prejudices. They are making the Bible say something that it does not actually say. This is why we get all sorts of strange and wonderful theological ideas, with silly treasure hunters coming up with a ring binder of golden pages with all sorts of stuff about a lost tribe of Israel and then building a whole religion on it, for example.
 
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Strong in Him

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I have argued against the notion that it was Paul himself because it shows up that people just don't read their Bible correctly and when it comes to reading the Bible, fall short in basic comprehension skills.

Yes; I think I've assumed that it was Paul talking about himself, in the third person. But have never given it too much thought, because the following verses about the thorn in the flesh have always been more important to me.

But I think I agree with your, clear, explanation; thank you.
 
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miknik5

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Not really. I have argued against the notion that it was Paul himself because it shows up that people just don't read their Bible correctly and when it comes to reading the Bible, fall short in basic comprehension skills. I know that part of the skill of comprehension is inference, and I think that the theory that it was Paul who had the revelation springs from an inferential comprehension of the passage. But Paul is not one who uses inference in his writing. He is straight up and expects that people who read his letters take what he is saying literally. There are no "deeper" meanings in anything Paul wrote. What you see is what you get. People who base their interpretation on inference are in effect rewriting the Bible to suit their own prejudices. They are making the Bible say something that it does not actually say. This is why we get all sorts of strange and wonderful theological ideas, with silly treasure hunters coming up with a ring binder of golden pages with all sorts of stuff about a lost tribe of Israel and then building a whole religion on it, for example.
Would you say that the poster whose thread is discussing tongues is inferring more of Paul than should be inferred,

Or how about his thread regarding the convenient diluted message of Paul?

Would you say that he is reading and comprehending THE WORD of GOD incorrectly as well?

Or do you think he is right and all that we initially have heard and read and understood of Paul being led by THE SPIRIT is incorrect

Would you say that Paul inferred that he too had (been born again of) the SPIRIT but he was incorrect or understood incorrectly this TRUTH. That he wasn't led by THE SPIRIT but spoke by his own spirit and offered his own opinions and his own advice
 
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PropheticTimes

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Let's analyse the passage:

"I go on to visions and revelations from the Lord"
Paul is introducing the topic that he is now going to discuss.
"I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know--God knows."
He is saying here that he knows a man who was caught up to the third heaven. He didn't know how it happened. If it was actually Paul, he would have known whether in the body or out of the body. The literal interpretation of this is that he is speaking of someone he knows who has related the vision to him. There is no indication at this stage that he is talking about himself. There is no sub-text to Paul's writing in general. He says what he means and means what he says, so we can trust that what he is saying is what we are reading, and not some "between the lines" inference that he is talking about himself.
"And I know that this man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows--was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell."
Paul goes on with the description of the man's vision. He is still referring to someone other than himself.
Now here is a key verse that we should not ignore:

"I will boast about a man like that, but I will not boast about myself, except about my weaknesses."
Paul is saying that he will boast about a man who has visions like that, but he will not boast about himself, rather he will make a big deal about his own weaknesses. He does that when he talks of the shipwrecks, hunger, stonings and other persecutions that he had to cope with. Right at the start of the book he said that he was so hard pressed in Asia that he despaired of life. This verse clearly tells us that Paul was not speaking of himself when he described the man who had the visions. The problem is that people read into the Scripture what they want to see instead of what is actually there.
"Even if I should choose to boast, I would not be a fool, because I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain, so no one will think more of me than is warranted by what I do or say,"
This is telling us that Paul is actually not boasting at all, because he says that if he chose to boast, he would be telling the truth, but he is refraining from boasting so that people won't think of him more than the person he actually is. To say that Paul is making some sort of underhanded boasting statement about having a vision and downplaying it because of some supposed humility to making Paul out to be deceptive and therefore untrustworthy. If that is so, we have to cut out all of Paul's letters from our Bibles because we cannot depend on him telling the truth anywhere. I would rather believe that the theory that Paul was talking about himself about some sort of vision he had is a load of codswollop thought up by some silly dream from a person who is comprehension challenged, than to believe that all of Paul's writing is untrustworthy. I was a teacher of reading to young students, and I taught comprehension. I would say that those young students were more competent at basic comprehension than the people who are saying that Paul is talking about himself when describing the man with the vision.
"or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me."
Paul does not say that these revelations were actually given to him. He is still referring to the other person who received the revelations. Instead of great revelations, the Lord has given Paul a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble and remind him that there is no good in him and his only claim to fame is what Jesus did on the cross for him and His mercy in revealing Himself to Paul on the Damascus Road.
"Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it way, but He said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly in my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest on me."
So, instead of using the other man's revelations to spur him on to boasting about revelations that he might have had, he chooses not to follow the other man's examples but to boast about his weaknesses instead.

There is no way that anyone can interpret the passage any other way than what Paul literally wrote. Bible scholars, and I don't care how eminent or qualified they are, are in error and are misleading their readers if they say that Paul is talking about himself.

Thank you for that wonderful exegesis. I humbly accept reproof and thank you for sharing your knowledge.
 
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miknik5

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What we need to do is to determine which Scriptures are written for us and not necessarily to us and what is written directly to us.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians on marriage for a particular reason. The Corinthians had this notion that the single life was the most spiritual (this is why celibacy is required of RCC priests) and so quite a number of married members were divorcing their wives so that they could be single again. Paul expressly said that if a man could not contain his sexual desires he should marry.

I think that applies to 99 percent of men. I believe that the 49 per cent of RCC priests who have had sex with woman or young boys were not able to contain their sexual desire but because they were forced into celibacy if they wanted to be in the priesthood, they had no outlet, therefore they succumbed to temptation. Any religious outfit that teaches that the single life is more spiritual and forbids marriage is setting men up for failure and are ignoring what Paul taught about sexual desire and marriage.

So, I believe that Paul's teaching on divorce was to the Corinthians but for us and not necessarily to us. To be divorced from your spouse because you think you are closer to God being single, is totally wrong and anyone who does that needs to repent and to get right with God by reconciling and remarrying their wife.

But to apply Paul's teaching to a victim of serious domestic violence, desertion, or adultery, was not mentioned by Paul in his teaching and therefore divorce for these reasons is not opposed by him, otherwise, Paul being Paul. he would have extended his teaching to make things more plain to his readers.

This is not the beginning of a debate on marriage, but more of a correct interpretation of Scripture through good hermaneutics. And so competent hermaneutics is directly related to the topic of this thread.
The church at Corinth had no notion that single life was preferred. They had come out of paganism and had used sex lowly as part of their pagan practices

What they did consider high and of importance was that some had unbelieving spouses and what should they do in that case. That was where divorce was. Ring considered And that is where Paul said no. The unbeliever and the children were sanctified because of the believing spouse.

Paul's instructions had NOTHJNG to do with celibacy at all

Celibacy? And yet they burned with passion?

And so Paul instructed they should marry

They had no interest in being single. They burned with desire. Paul told that the husband and wife are not their own. Their bodies belong to each other.

It COULD HAVE BEEN that after coming out of their pagan ways some believers consciences were pierced and weren't considering sex and withholding from their married spouses

Paul said come together and be apart when you pray.

No
Your inferences are not accepted

This has more to do with their consciences than anything else

He was instructing the married, the engaged. The single person. He was instructing the unbeliever and believer in their marriage. The religious in his marriage He had to instruct a variety of people and what he kept to was what was good and proper. Married should not divorce but if an u believer wants to leave, he should leave.

What matters is being at peace with one another as much as it is in our ability to do so and the salvation of all men

In which case with regards to the married believer and unbeliever he reminds them that they can't know if they will save their partner (if they leave)
This has nothing to do with celibacy being better

The only reason Paul included his status as single was because he knew the difficulty in serving the LORD and the pull of attention from serving the Lord and a marriage partner
 
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miknik5

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What we need to do is to determine which Scriptures are written for us and not necessarily to us and what is written directly to us.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians on marriage for a particular reason. The Corinthians had this notion that the single life was the most spiritual (this is why celibacy is required of RCC priests) and so quite a number of married members were divorcing their wives so that they could be single again. Paul expressly said that if a man could not contain his sexual desires he should marry. I think that applies to 99 percent of men. I believe that the 49 per cent of RCC priests who have had sex with woman or young boys were not able to contain their sexual desire but because they were forced into celibacy if they wanted to be in the priesthood, they had no outlet, therefore they succumbed to temptation. Any religious outfit that teaches that the single life is more spiritual and forbids marriage is setting men up for failure and are ignoring what Paul taught about sexual desire and marriage.

So, I believe that Paul's teaching on divorce was to the Corinthians but for us and not necessarily to us. To be divorced from your spouse because you think you are closer to God being single, is totally wrong and anyone who does that needs to repent and to get right with God by reconciling and remarrying their wife.

But to apply Paul's teaching to a victim of serious domestic violence, desertion, or adultery, was not mentioned by Paul in his teaching and therefore divorce for these reasons is not opposed by him, otherwise, Paul being Paul. he would have extended his teaching to make things more plain to his readers.

This is not the beginning of a debate on marriage, but more of a correct interpretation of Scripture through good hermaneutics. And so competent hermaneutics is directly related to the topic of this thread.
Paul covered marriage perfectly and any believer born of CHRIST's SPIRIT would have understood that he was not telling married people to divorce single people to not marry and married people that sex was Unhealthy and that prayer and worship was lessened or sullied because of sex

These people had been very very free with sex and now after having heard the TRUTH and believing they were confused on what to do

They had the natural desires but could not figure out what to do

And some were becoming like Paul in wanting to devote their lives fully to THE LIFD and also couldn't figure out if what they were doing was good and right considering they were not the only one that their decision would affect

Here Paul directs by telling these not what they HAVE to do but what is right according to their conscience

This had nothing to do with Catholic Church or celibacy at all

It has to do with teaching a group of believers in one location with many different wants what is right to do according to their conscience and what is right to do instead of what some married people were considering

Because Paul reminds if when you believed as a married person (even if it is that your spouse is unbelieving) that the LORD accepted them
Then he goes on to instruct that tney should remain married if there is peace in the marriage because in all things that is what GOD called us to
To be at peace with all men as much as it is in our ability to do so
 
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Not really. I have argued against the notion that it was Paul himself because it shows up that people just don't read their Bible correctly and when it comes to reading the Bible, fall short in basic comprehension skills. I know that part of the skill of comprehension is inference, and I think that the theory that it was Paul who had the revelation springs from an inferential comprehension of the passage. But Paul is not one who uses inference in his writing. He is straight up and expects that people who read his letters take what he is saying literally. There are no "deeper" meanings in anything Paul wrote. What you see is what you get. People who base their interpretation on inference are in effect rewriting the Bible to suit their own prejudices. They are making the Bible say something that it does not actually say. This is why we get all sorts of strange and wonderful theological ideas, with silly treasure hunters coming up with a ring binder of golden pages with all sorts of stuff about a lost tribe of Israel and then building a whole religion on it, for example.
I kind of agree with you. It's more of John the Apostle's style to talk about himself secretly, not Paul's. But I'm not 100% one way or the other as to who Paul was talking about.
 
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miknik5

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Now, this is more believable, because John did have the experience that Paul describes. I haven't thought of John before. You have shown me something I didn't know and caused me to have a much better understanding of the passage.

I think that Paul held John in very high regard because John was one of the original Apostles, where Paul describes himself as being appointed "out of time" by the Lord. Paul also is painfully aware that he persecuted the Church before his conversion, while John was close to the Lord, knew Him personally over three years, and remained totally faithful to Him. I think that Paul felt inferior to John, and although he referred to John's revelatory experiences, he could not promote himself to be John's equal.
I have bolded some things in your response to make you aware of something that maybe you aren't aware of

This is you inferring
You know that, don't you?
 
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