I initially thought Trump would have prevented the Horrible attacks in Israel

[Hank77]

Not just dropping leaflets and hoping for the best.

Hamas should have had a plan to protect their people before they started this war. They should have had an evacuation plan and if they cared about their people they would have.
Why do these people keep voting for Hamas?

 

[Fantine]

Just war theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just wars must be proportionate. Is sending 365,000 soldiers, bombs, warplanes, ships "proportionate" to avenge the horrific deaths of 1369 Israelis?

Should we be "thankful" and cheering on the Israelis as they plan what will surely be genocide, warning people to leave--without food, gasoline, electricity, on foot, no matter how elderly, disabled, young, or non-ambulatory they are?

Should we be "thankful" that they have nowhere to go? That they are in the third highest populace per-square-mile area of the world, with all borders blocked to them?

I heard quoted that Hamas has 30,000 people in Gaza who will be trained to fight the 365,000 well-funded, well-armed Israeli Army.

Is it really necessary to risk the lives of 2.3 million Palestinians, half under the age of 18, to apprehend 30,000?

What Hamas did was inexcusable--despite the oppression and numerous human rights violations that have been compared to "apartheid" by Jimmy Carter and others.

What Israel is planning is 100, perhaps 1000 times more inexcusable, and the 1.15 million Palestinian children in Gaza are the 21st century version of the Holy Innocents, with Netanyahu in the role of King Herod.

 

[mark46]

More than 2 million Palestinians – including over a million children – live in the 140-square-mile Gaza Strip,...

The city of Chicago is 234.53 square miles and is home to 2.7 million people.

Manhattan
22.82 sq miles
1, 629,000

Could half of Manhattan be evacuated in a couple of days to the other half? I think that the majority of people could be evacuated.

 

[mark46]

Hamas should have had a plan to protect their people before they started this war. They should have had an evacuation plan and if they cared about their people they would have.
Why do these people keep voting for Hamas?

keep voting?

I'm not sure there has been a legitimate election in the either Palestine in 15 years.

That being said, as lebanon, the people support Hamas.

 

[variant]

Hamas should have had a plan to protect their people before they started this war. They should have had an evacuation plan and if they cared about their people they would have.
Why do these people keep voting for Hamas?

Keep?

There was one vote in 2007 which most of the country wasn't alive for, there have been no votes since.

They likely won because they were doing a better job than the PLO at tending to the peoples basic needs.

Still Hamas is a terrorist organization and Gaza has been under military blockade since Israel left.

 

[ChurchBuilder]

if God were to endorse Hamas what would He be endorsing? The Palestinians have always been offered equal citizenship of the state of Israel, they would rather cut their throats than accept that.

Thank you for your comment. Can you post any links that explain how Palestinians have been offered equal citizenship in Israel?

 

[ChurchBuilder]

As much as I like Trump I believe the Abrahamic accord can only bring war. God has always kept Isaac seperate from Ishmael. The more Israel has tried to intergrate with other nations has always brought on them persecution.

I see it the same as if Christians were to seek accord with Moslem ... can't happen.

Thank you for your comment. Would you agree that Israel originally initiated threats and violence as a way to integrate?

 

[mark46]

Just war theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just wars must be proportionate. Is sending 365,000 soldiers, bombs, warplanes, ships "proportionate" to avenge the horrific deaths of 1369 Israelis?

Should we be "thankful" and cheering on the Israelis as they plan what will surely be genocide, warning people to leave--without food, gasoline, electricity, on foot, no matter how elderly, disabled, young, or non-ambulatory they are?

Should we be "thankful" that they have nowhere to go? That they are in the third highest populace per-square-mile area of the world, with all borders blocked to them?

I heard quoted that Hamas has 30,000 people in Gaza who will be trained to fight the 365,000 well-funded, well-armed Israeli Army.

Is it really necessary to risk the lives of 2.3 million Palestinians, half under the age of 18, to apprehend 30,000?

What Hamas did was inexcusable--despite the oppression and numerous human rights violations that have been compared to "apartheid" by Jimmy Carter and others.

What Israel is planning is 100, perhaps 1000 times more inexcusable, and the 1.15 million Palestinian children in Gaza are the 21st century version of the Holy Innocents, with Netanyahu in the role of King Herod.

So, you saying that Israel is forcing 2.3 million Palestinians to die so that Israel can rid the world of 30,000 terrorists. Of course, with tht logic, ISIS would be in charge of Middle East.

Let's be very, very clear.

THE SOUTH
Israel is attacking Gaza City. There are many agencies and others in South supporting whoever will take their help. The only folks stopping that support is Hamas. Your idea that Israel should be FORCED to provide water, electricity to Gaza, a country that has declared war on Israel is very strange indeed. BTW, why isn't Egypt sending food and water and electricity? Perhaps Egypt should be forced to provide aid provided by other countries. The government of Gaza has declared war on Israel. BTW, Israel and the US have been working hard to provide safe havens and corridors in the South. Hamas has stood in the way.

GAZA CITY
In war, what country allows all of it enemies to leave their target city, providing deadlines and help in evacuating (help form US). The South is 10 miles away. Sure, there are folks who can't go 10 miles. But the vast majority can leave. The only thing stopping them would be their own government.

Israel is going to give up the lives of many of their citizens to rid Gaza of Hamas and the terror that they have brought to Gaza. And yes, the US will do all it can to help. Let's say 90,000 die in this terrible war: 30K terrorists, 30K Palestinians and 30K Israelis, what then? WIll the world be better. The answer is a resounding "yes". But then, that is what war is about, making those terrible decisions.
=============
Your bottom line seems to be that there is no action so bad that countries should fight to stop the terrorists that persecute the people. There is no attack worth fighting against.

OK, you are entitled to that view.

Mine is different. The attack of Hamas was an attack on Jews by religious terrorists not seen since the Holocaust. The attack was by the government of Gaza against all Jews and against Israel. Israel will not and should not accept these actions.

 

[mark46]

Keep?

There was one vote in 2007 which most of the country wasn't alive for, there have been no votes since.

They likely won because they were doing a better job than the PLO at tending to the peoples basic needs.

Still Hamas is a terrorist organization and Gaza has been under military blockade since Israel left.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that is the government of Gaza. There are many countries and disputed areas being ruled by terrorists, certainly Lebanon and Iran.

Being a terrorist state does not absolve all its citizens if their government goes to war against another country. There many countries whose last real elections were 15 years ago. If these countries declare war, their people will be put at risk.
==========
There are many strange ideas being discussed here. That the people under a dictatorship should be immune from attack if their country goes to war is a truly strange one. If Jordan declared war of Lebanon, should the people of Jordan be immune to attack or consequences because they don't support their dictatorship? Of course not. And so it is with Hamas. Israelis are doing much to avoid killing civilians. I think folks are very misled if they think that other countries would react to Hamas in more mild ways.
==========
I think carpet bombing of all the cities would have been compete by now by most countries if they were attacked by Hamas in similar ways as last Saturday.

 

[ChurchBuilder]

Hamas is a terrorist organization that is the government of Gaza. There are many countries and disputed areas being ruled by terrorists, certainly Lebanon and Iran.

Being a terrorist state does not absolve all its citizens if their government goes to war against another country. There many countries whose last real elections were 15 years ago. If these countries declare war, their people will be put at risk.
==========
There are many strange ideas being discussed here. That the people under a dictatorship should be immune from attack if their country goes to war is a truly strange one. If Jordan declared war of Lebanon, should the people of Jordan be immune to attack or consequences because they don't support their dictatorship? Of course not. And so it is with Hamas. Israelis are doing much to avoid killing civilians. I think folks are very misled if they think that other countries would react to Hamas in more mild ways.
==========
I think carpet bombing of all the cities would have been compete by now by most countries if they were attacked by Hamas in similar ways as last Saturday.

Thank you for your comment. I think the problem is what you may consider a "terrorist" others consider a "Freedom Fighter".
Looking objectively at the initial causal factor of this conflict which started in the 40s, it does appear that the Israelis initialized the threats and violence, correct?

 

[Valletta]

Just war theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just wars must be proportionate. Is sending 365,000 soldiers, bombs, warplanes, ships "proportionate" to avenge the horrific deaths of 1369 Israelis?

Should we be "thankful" and cheering on the Israelis as they plan what will surely be genocide, warning people to leave--without food, gasoline, electricity, on foot, no matter how elderly, disabled, young, or non-ambulatory they are?

Should we be "thankful" that they have nowhere to go? That they are in the third highest populace per-square-mile area of the world, with all borders blocked to them?

I heard quoted that Hamas has 30,000 people in Gaza who will be trained to fight the 365,000 well-funded, well-armed Israeli Army.

Is it really necessary to risk the lives of 2.3 million Palestinians, half under the age of 18, to apprehend 30,000?

What Hamas did was inexcusable--despite the oppression and numerous human rights violations that have been compared to "apartheid" by Jimmy Carter and others.

What Israel is planning is 100, perhaps 1000 times more inexcusable, and the 1.15 million Palestinian children in Gaza are the 21st century version of the Holy Innocents, with Netanyahu in the role of King Herod.

Israel has been attacked by barbarians who delight in killing babies in front of their parents, reminiscent of the Nazis and the Japanese. There are over a million people in Pakistan who directly support Hamas, including many teenagers. The vast majority of Gaza is sympathetic to Hamas and refuses to turn over the sadists for trial. While Israel will be outnumbered in Gaza, they are willing to sacrifice their lives in order to stop the fanatical Muslims who have stated they wish to wipe Jews from the face of the earth, and have shown their contempt for humanity and for God. And don't forget the population of Iran and groups like Hezbollah, with their addition Israelis are even more outnumbered. The radicalized Muslims begged the world for concrete in order to rebuild Gaza, and have played upon the compassion of the world in order to buy more weapons to kill as many Jews as they can. Realize the nature of the enemy and their evil, far different than the many Muslims and Jews and Christians in the world who want peace.

 

[ChurchBuilder]

Israel has been attacked by barbarians who delight in killing babies in front of their parents, reminiscent of the Nazis and the Japanese. There are over a million people in Pakistan who directly support Hamas, including many teenagers. The vast majority of Gaza is sympathetic to Hamas and refuses to turn over the sadists for trial. While Israel will be outnumbered in Gaza, they are willing to sacrifice their lives in order to stop the fanatical Muslims who have stated they wish to wipe Jews from the face of the earth, and have shown their contempt for humanity and for God. And don't forget the population of Iran and groups like Hezbollah, with their addition Israelis are even more outnumbered. The radicalized Muslims begged the world for concrete in order to rebuild Gaza, and have played upon the compassion of the world in order to buy more weapons to kill as many Jews as they can. Realize the nature of the enemy and their evil, far different than the many Muslims and Jews and Christians in the world who want peace.

Thank you for your comment. When you say "Israel has been attacked", would you agree that this could be in retaliation for Israel's original violent occupation
back in the 40s?

 

[mark46]

Thank you for your comment. I think the problem is what you may consider a "terrorist" others consider a "Freedom Fighter".
Looking objectively at the initial causal factor of this conflict which started in the 40s, it does appear that the Israelis initialized the threats and violence, correct?

I agree that "terrorists" are often freedom fighters, fighting for freedom. However, when they are part of the ruling government fighting other countries, they are really no longer freedom fighters. For example, calling Hezbollah "freedom fighters" seems silly. They are the military andpart of the government of Lebanon.

Yes, the Jews were the freedom fighters of the 40's, fighting the British. The result was that Palestine was split into Jordan and Israel. On the day of Israeli independence, the Arab countries all attacked Israel, including Jordan. But, we are in the 2020's. Israel has treaties with Jordan, Egypt, the UAE, Bahrain, and Morocco. They will soon have a treaty with Saudi Arabia.

No one has treated the Palestinians well. They have tried emigrating to other countries, bringing instability and civil war wherever they settled. No one has any interest in accepting Palestinian refugees. Israel would gladly turn the West Bank over to Jordan and Gaza over to Egypt. The only opportunity for Palestinian freedom is in the West Bank and in Gaza. And even there, the Arabs really don't want an independent Palestine.

My GUESS is that the Palestinians will be much better off when this war is over. The West Bank is sustainable and just needs the help of Arab business interests and a guarantee of security from the Arabs to Israel. The Palestinian Authority (as has happened in Ukraine) will need to clean up some of its corruption, but they can lead.

Gaza is much harder. In a couple of months, Israel will sit down with its allies (plus Saudi Arabia) and find a solution. The solution will take much effort and money from the Arabs. Israel cannot be the replacement for Hamas. The Palestinian Authority is the only choice. But, the Arabs will need to provide security and money. [And no, it will NOT be Israel's responsibility to provide food, water and electricity to Gaza]
========
THE BOTTOM LINE IS
that the Arabs don't have a fight with Israel, they have a trading partner and an ally against Iran.

 

[Fantine]

So, you saying that Israel is forcing 2.3 million Palestinians to die so that Israel can rid the world of 30,000 terrorists. Of course, with tht logic, ISIS would be in charge of Middle East.

Let's be very, very clear.

THE SOUTH
Israel is attacking Gaza City. There are many agencies and others in South supporting whoever will take their help. The only folks stopping that support is Hamas. Your idea that Israel should be FORCED to provide water, electricity to Gaza, a country that has declared war on Israel is very strange indeed. BTW, why isn't Egypt sending food and water and electricity? Perhaps Egypt should be forced to provide aid provided by other countries. The government of Gaza has declared war on Israel. BTW, Israel and the US have been working hard to provide safe havens and corridors in the South. Hamas has stood in the way.

GAZA CITY
In war, what country allows all of it enemies to leave their target city, providing deadlines and help in evacuating (help form US). The South is 10 miles away. Sure, there are folks who can't go 10 miles. But the vast majority can leave. The only thing stopping them would be their own government.

Israel is going to give up the lives of many of their citizens to rid Gaza of Hamas and the terror that they have brought to Gaza. And yes, the US will do all it can to help. Let's say 90,000 die in this terrible war: 30K terrorists, 30K Palestinians and 30K Israelis, what then? WIll the world be better. The answer is a resounding "yes". But then, that is what war is about, making those terrible decisions.
=============
Your bottom line seems to be that there is no action so bad that countries should fight to stop the terrorists that persecute the people. There is no attack worth fighting against.

OK, you are entitled to that view.

Mine is different. The attack of Hamas was an attack on Jews by religious terrorists not seen since the Holocaust. The attack was by the government of Gaza against all Jews and against Israel. Israel will not and should not accept these actions.

You misread my position. My positions that decades of oppression and abuse have taken a terrible toll. Can you name any persecuted group in history that did not eventually rebel against their persecutors?

We need a statesman--someone like Nelson Mandela who helped his country heal after the abomination of apartheid.

Look around the world and see the universal conditions in which terrorism thrives.

Israel drowned the Palestinians in the fertilizer that made Gaza fertile ground for terrorism.

I mourn the terrible deaths that have occurred and which will occur. The Israelis, like the Palestinians, are good people. Their government has sinned for decades.

 

[Fantine]

Have you ever looked at the 1948 map of Israel and the 1967 map after Israeli aggressors seized much more territory? They more than doubled their land, and years of persecuting the native population helped them hold it.

 

[Valletta]

Have you ever looked at the 1948 map of Israel and the 1967 map after Israeli aggressors seized much more territory? They more than doubled their land, and years of persecuting the native population helped them hold it.

The Nazis supported extermination of Jews in Palestine, back then when you referred to the "Palestinians" you were referring to the Jews. Israel has made it clear they will take land if those in Palestine attack them, if they wanted to retain their land all they had to do was stop the attacks on Jews--the choice was theirs. Hamas are barbarians who delight in the torturing and extermination of Jews, butchering babies. They have begged the world for help and pretended they only wanted peace, but they took the world's aid and used it to try and exterminate Jews from the face of the earth. Realize too that radical Islam is a danger to the world, spearheaded by Iranian leadership. Not one Arab country will take their civilian refugee, all borders are close to the Gaza refugees. Hamas was given chance after chance and now Hamas will be ended, just as the Nazis were.

 

[Valletta]

Thank you for your comment. When you say "Israel has been attacked", would you agree that this could be in retaliation for Israel's original violent occupation
back in the 40s?

No, not at all. Do you think if France attacked Germany that it would be in retaliation for Germany invading France in 1940? It would be an excuse.
You see, the people in Hamas who butchered the Jewish babies were not alive in the 1940s. It is their hatred of Jews, like the Nazis, that caused them to act. Their goal, like Iran's goal, is to exterminate all Jews.

 

[eclipsenow]

I would love to watch Trump try to answer the “trolley problem” query.

He wouldn't understand it and would blame "Barrack HUSSEIN Obama - HUSSEIN Obama!"
I mean - has the guy had a medical lately? Consider these remarks:

Trump, a former Republican president who is the frontrunner to become the party's 2024 presidential nominee, called the Lebanese Hezbollah, a sworn enemy of Israel, "very smart" and accused Netanyahu of being "not prepared" for the Hamas attack, which also killed 22 Americans.

Israeli Communications Minister Shlomo Karhi said Trump's comments to supporters and in a television interview on Wednesday night showed he could not be relied on.

It is "shameful that a man like that, a former U.S. president, abets propaganda and disseminates things that wound the spirit of Israel's fighters and its citizens," Karhi told Israel's Channel 13.

White House deputy press secretary Andrew Bates called Trump's comments "dangerous and unhinged."


"It's completely lost on us why any American would ever praise an Iran-backed terrorist organization as 'smart'," Bates said.

Israel, White House condemn Trump for remarks about Hamas attack, 'smart' Hezbollah

Israel and the White House on Thursday condemned remarks by Donald Trump in which he praised the Iran-backed militant group Hezbollah and criticized Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu over an attack by Palestinian Hamas militants that killed more than 1,300 people in Israel.

www.reuters.com

 

[variant]

Hamas is a terrorist organization that is the government of Gaza. There are many countries and disputed areas being ruled by terrorists, certainly Lebanon and Iran.

Being a terrorist state does not absolve all its citizens if their government goes to war against another country. There many countries whose last real elections were 15 years ago. If these countries declare war, their people will be put at risk.
==========
There are many strange ideas being discussed here. That the people under a dictatorship should be immune from attack if their country goes to war is a truly strange one. If Jordan declared war of Lebanon, should the people of Jordan be immune to attack or consequences because they don't support their dictatorship? Of course not. And so it is with Hamas. Israelis are doing much to avoid killing civilians. I think folks are very misled if they think that other countries would react to Hamas in more mild ways.
==========
I think carpet bombing of all the cities would have been compete by now by most countries if they were attacked by Hamas in similar ways as last Saturday.

Strange ideas?

Carpet bombing of civilians, denying food water and medical supplies to civilians and forced removal of civilian populations are all war crimes.

Which goes for all wars, not just the ones we approve of.

The idea that the people "keep" choosing Hamas as their leadership is questionable since most of the country didn't have a say and they haven't had regular elections.

 

[variant]

Have you ever looked at the 1948 map of Israel and the 1967 map after Israeli aggressors seized much more territory? They more than doubled their land, and years of persecuting the native population helped them hold it.

The 1948 UN agreement wasn't implemented. The two sides were at war before it could be.