I have this feeling I should obey this

[mikeforjesus]

I have thought I could follow this but I won’t because I don’t think orthodoxy has the right to judge orthodox who convert to Catholicism if they can not prove orthodoxy is true though catholicism is not reasonable either because one can not know definitely Catholicism is right and orthodoxy is not true



I should be orthodox because my family is I think people can be Catholic they are only required to be orthodox if they are capable to know it is true

Orthodox now condemn converts to Catholicism from orthodoxy but I’m not sure God would because maybe that was not His intention for His church but since we can not know and I don’t want to cause divisions and I am not sure catholicism is true I would not want to risk converting to Catholic Church when you don’t know it is true but it may be God accepts because people do not know but I actually think God will accept but we should not make divisions because we also could be the most true


Because I may need to be part of a church but not knowing what is true I think I should be part of the Orthodox Church Orthodox may be the true church but catholics are not judged because they do not know unless they can know. But the Orthodox Church teaches if orthodox converts to catholic he can not be saved that is the risk the person takes who leaves the truth and makes divisions only God knows if it is true so one should not join Catholic Church if it is not true from the Orthodox Church.


I suppose because orthodox had family that still were orthodox they are required to be orthodox not to make divisions if you were raised orthodox by parents who were orthodox but what if people were never raised by orthodox parents because one person left orthodoxy a long time ago I suppose one is not required for him because he is not making divisions as that person can not be preached to anymore to return to orthodoxy and one is not making divisions to anyone who needs him as he was not raised orthodox and none of his family is


But only God knows if it is required to be if one is not confident of Catholicism why be so atleast because I believe orthodoxy is the truth they will be part of the truth if they become orthodox if they want to trust catholicism that is their decision it is possible God may accept them but only God knows


The site orthodox info will the heterodox be saved says that those born orthodox have to remain I suppose because of causing division but those born in other denominations do not have to unless that is only while they never came across orthodoxy and never thought it could be right if they did not find orthodoxy through no fault of their own and were not given chance to see it could be required when they search that is because they never rejected orthodoxy from themselves because they were not searching the truth and were capable to see it may be the truth but they were stuck not knowing it is from the apostles it means Protestants who never had the chance to know the truth the site means

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Smile.

I do not believe as the Orthodox do [as far as I know]; I do not believe as the Catholics do. I am persuaded in Pentecostalism and believe as I have been taught: by the Holy Spirit first; by the Scripture; by the teaching of Jesus Christ; by the apostolic word, and by men full of the Holy Ghost.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind [bold mine].

Can the Catholics be right? I doubt it. I am persuaded. Can the Orthodox be right? Hardly likely. I am persuaded. Can I be wrong? Not even a bit. I am persuaded.

Some may say I am biased, others bigoted. Name calling makes no difference because I am fully persuaded. I cannot say what I don't believe nor can I compromise with it.

If you are fully persuaded that Orthodoxy is the Truth, my friend, stick with it for it is always better to obey the truth. I will not think less of you for it.

 

[mikeforjesus]

I was going to reply personally to a person post with this but it is in their church forum in this site and maybe the post is not very much related to be something I think which something unfair is said but the post said nothing untrue though I thought it was an attack on bible only believing Christians but I decided to post here

All church followers follow a unfair God we are commanded to forgive them because we know they just want to be saved in the churches and follow from fear trusting the church if you still love others to be saved and join the church even if one maybe offends others outside churches because he is hurt and he thinks they judge them

But the truth is it is very sad if God established the church because He would let people perish without knowing it is absolutely essential who do not wish to follow any church because they do not know which one is true or if the one they join is definitely right and not making stumbling blocks because they think church doctrines are not fair and are a stumbling block from politics and that they think it is not right to have spiritual guides be able to make one say they are not worthy to go to heaven who also exclude people in other apostolic churches as not accurately being able to know the path to salvation to follow it

 

[jhjhh]

Those who have confessed and believe are the body of the church. You will find born again believers in every established church, in small home churches and even people who never visit a church.

Romans 10:9-10 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved."

The church doesn't save you, Jesus does. Churches are just buildings filled with infallible people. Join a church because Jesus is at the centre and you are spiritually fed not because of claims of it being the only true church. Study the scripture and test the spirits always and if you feel drawn to the Eastern orthodox then join, but don't fall into the one true church trap.

But the question is can the church cause you to lose your crown.

 

[coffee4u]

But the question is can the church cause you to lose your crown.

If it's teaching heresy it might lead you down that path. But as a believer you need to test the spirits and take responsibility for what you are listening too.

Is it real teaching or what 'itching ears want to hear'.

 

[jhjhh]

If it's teaching heresy it might lead you down that path. But as a believer you need to test the spirits and take responsibility for what you are listening too.

Is it real teaching or what 'itching ears want to hear'.

So we now that orthodox and catholics have some iffy stuff. Rosary prayers, praying to saints, purgatory, possibly idol worship to name a few.

 

[mikeforjesus]

I didn’t want to follow this path because I wanted to try to seek God to find God to find Him and I did not want to be judgemental of good believers but since one can not know for sure there is salvation outside the church I feel I should follow it
Since we can’t know if things are politics or not I can teach Orthodox Church is true and converts to Catholicism have to become orthodox again not those who never had been raised orthodox nor their family if they don’t believe it they can stay as Catholic if they think that is true I can not say what is definitely true and it could be politics but we don’t know but I would seek to accept orthodox as the true church and it is up to God if catholic is accepted if it is politics but I would accept orthodox as true church so atleast people will be in a church I am not at fault for people not being catholic because it is up to them if they really believe it is the true church or want to trust it because they think it may be but one should be in the true church though it could be politics but we don’t know

 

[mikeforjesus]

I feel I should go by faith I believe God is accepting and by obedience of one you can help others be saved. That is those who would not follow Christ otherwise I do not help people in church be saved they are saved only if they are truly trying to follow Christ in their church. I believe God would save those who follow the church but they do not help people as much and have that crown that no one would envy as all think they are serving God the crown everyone gives you. I should obey God that many may be saved. Maybe God allowed the tradition to exist at the beginning for the sake of those who would be attracted to the authority and feel they should take scripture as though only referring to a literal interpretation and limited by it who did not study the scripture well it is for those who study well and feel it should exist but not only those did God work with. God may have wanted to create the church at the beginning so there would be no divisions so no one group claims to be only truly have the right to determine what is scriptural beliefs in the future but it was never biblical. It was made to let all not have private interpretation but for all to try to grow in the unity of faith by discussing their biblical beliefs. God did not want the true beliefs to be carried by apostolic succession because then if they err that would be a problem and so no one claims he has the true beliefs perfectly as then there would be no room from an authority that God accepted for those who are not diligently students of the word who want it or expect it but the scriptures would be but they are all not to be seen as teachers but to try to follow God sincerely each how they think it is so to grow into a better understanding and agreement for all to hopefully agree with the bible and come to the knowledge of the truth and the church is the pillar and ground of the truth which is the people with the Holy Spirit which come to understand the truth in more depth not disagreeing with the scriptures

 

[mikeforjesus]

I would say maybe I should assume salvation is only in the church if that could let me do works that prove the church is right and only true but I don’t believe such works are ever done to make people know for sure for then any other orthodox could do such. I don’t believe in the church only for I believe the wind does not blow only one church people to make people know only they are true but all believers. Jesus said those who are born of God you can tell they speak the truth by the works they do that is you hear the wind of the Spirit but can not tell where they got their influence it was because of their faith which is not a visible thing they do that makes people believe. All believers do manifest the fruit of the Spirit because of their faith

 

[mikeforjesus]

I think I should be orthodox because it could be the true church it may not be others can be Catholic if they trust it the church teaches people who convert to catholic can not be saved unless they convert back to orthodox yet if one trusts orthodox he can be orthodox or he can remain catholic it could be politics and orthodoxy would accept catholic but we don’t know we have to accept the position of the church as could be true if we are orthodox one priest said in a church unity meeting if people convert to catholic we don’t ask that they convert back to orthodox or we don’t accept them again so there is different opinions or he may have meant as a way of discipline we will not seek to convert them again by proselyting or preaching them not that they will change their orthodox position and teach it in general it seems in the church but I thought the official position of the Orthodox Church atleast Eastern Orthodox on can heterodox be saved says we say the truth that they may come back to orthodoxy. Maybe also catholics are required to be orthodox if it is possible to know for sure it is true

I can seek to see if catholic is true

But I think I will return to Orthodox Church because though there may be salvation outside the church I have not been able to know for sure and I think it seems right to return to church to assume there is only salvation in it unless God proves for sure and removes divisions

 

[mikeforjesus]

I change my mind and now believe God wants us to have faith in His character of justice and one has freedom to if he is concerned about others and he loves them but people don't have to they can follow God out of fear if they do not trust Him. But I will not but I will trust Him that He is love and He accepts all repentance if others want to be ruled by fear to trust the church they can I will trust that one can be saved outside the church if he repents if others do not believe they can join the church

 

[mikeforjesus]

Sometimes I think whether my decision is wise and I feel it is. I think am I justified not to support a church and then I realise it is best not to

Augustine said the below

Augustine
“Whoever is separated from this Catholic Church, by this single sin of being separated from the unity of Christ, no matter how estimable a life he may imagine he is living, shall not have life, but the wrath of God rests upon him” (ibid., 141:5)

I believe Augustine means not just those who want to make divisions when they know it is not right but I think he means if one is not catholic he can not be saved. But that is the problem of the church a man makes himself the teacher of God the only way one can know one is accepted by God is if he talks to God and has relationship with Him and God let’s them know He loves them.

I would think based on this and recent thoughts I had I should be Catholic until Orthodox proves it is the only true church and maybe there will also be proof Catholic is also accepted though one who reads Augustine beliefs it appears his beliefs could be orthodox or not support papal supremacy to accept every teaching but you still seemed to have to accept to be united to Rome to be under the pope and he being able to teach the true faith and has ability to but if the church can not be built on a man according to Augustine it says to be because he did not believe there was a concept of infallibility of Pope when he speaks from the chair because then you could say it is built on him being the rock but they may have believed he has ability to be infallible but he not always is and when he doesn’t he has to submit to the truth church taught but I would not be comfortable doing this for one must respect other church beliefs of Orthodox because people could feel you made others convert so cause offenses and confusion and division and it could be conversion from true church if one has trust in churches

For knowing the truth when Jesus talked about the bread of life He said no one can come to me unless the Father makes it possible I take that to mean not believe church doctrine and not just to believe Jesus is probably Christ but to commit their life to Him when they know they are able to trust Him as fair if those divisions makes one doubts he can trust Him to be fair and to want to follow Him to absolutely know the truth when he comes to Christ to give him assurance. But it is mostly for non believers for believers may accept him but they do not trust Him unless they know Him

 

[mikeforjesus]

Those divisions are a distraction from people repenting

see this message reality is despite the different beliefs that does not mean we should be deceived to believe God can not be fair in judgement if such divisions exist and there is no hell and the devil is responsible for people wanting to excuse themselves from having faith that they need to trust God to seek a relationship with Christ and if not join a church

Positive Vibes: Why Christianity Isn't Cool

What did Jesus mean when He promised an abundant life? | GotQuestions.org

 

[mikeforjesus]

I was looking closer in the history of the church and the first claim starts with polycarp. My thoughts are as follows in which I reach my conclusion at the end . I think Polycarp could not have been taught by John and there was no proof of that for all that this polycarp taught the church or the same polycarp or there being proof polycarp taught Irenaeus people did not have to believe it but God allowed them to make a tradition so those who are more willing to trust a religion if there is an authority that takes it seriously can follow it and so others can seek unity He could have sent a person to convince it is so or really there was a man named polycarp that claimed to have spoken with John and God let him and told him to tell Ireneneus this and said he did but there was no proof of that nor did the people know of polycarp teaching that but God allowed a man named polycarp to claim such and to write that but there was no evidence to the people John taught a polycarp because people just we’re expected to believe Ireneneus witness though there was no proof so it wasn’t the reality the church at the apostles time knew of a polycarp that did that. I accept that this is the case because I do not believe the tradition of the church really represents the biblical tradition which God did not support divisions in the apostles church to not be able to know the truth but some said we follow this group Peter and others we follow different apostle

 

[mikeforjesus]

Many Christians we look up to did not teach baptism as required and did teach works are not necessary I wanted to believe maybe they will be saved because they had good intentions they atleast did believe works are necessary as evidence of salvation and did works. But I am not sure they can be saved. I once thought they teach eternal security once saved always saved but I think that is the devil deceiving me they may have meant if you are truly saved like the person on good soil you would persevere and naturally bear fruit with patience and they may have changed their mind or meant if you are saved you can not lose it unless you give it up and do not persevere. Or they may mean if you were ever truly saved it would be very hard to walk away from salvation because you absolutely know the truth and one would desire to persevere and be patient.But I don’t know if I can trust if they don’t teach baptism and works. And they don’t practice communion as necessary. So I am not sure I can trust there is any future for people who will not practice sacraments so I don’t think there is much hope for most outside a church. I think I should join the Catholic Church because I think if orthodox is true it should probably accept catholic but I have not been proven it is true. They have failed to convince the truth that orthodox is the true church

And I am not responsible for anyone else but myself because if I was God would not be fair for those who make stumbling blocks who really convince others they are not saved. But people if they do not believe they are saved have responsibility to join church they think is right because one chooses to be Protestant if he has faith in God and wants to be loving. It is his own responsibility to be convinced Protestant is right and remain and if no longer to trust to be loving join a church but God will judge the world truly if they obeyed his gospel.

Since I do not think it is fair that we can not have assurance as Protestant and orthodox has failed to prove it is true I will join the Catholic Church

I feel too bad to be trampled upon as Protestant that I am not teaching the truth and others to trample upon the gospel and then I am not sure I am saved so I will join the church for it seems God does not care about me if he does not prove it and I want to be sure what I am teaching is true so I would wish God would prove it it could be true but we have to assume church is true if it is not true but others will be judged if they are not obeying the gospel choosing what they are comfortable believing in

I could be orthodox because I don’t want to stumble them but Protestants also stumble and it is not fair one has more attention if God will not prove these divisions are wrong or defend orthodoxy as true or that orthodoxy is most true but Catholic is accepted or not prove one more but both as equally valid then I don’t think I should be orthodox

I have a software complete Christian collection has many Christians from history like John Bunyan Charles spurgeon I will still attempt to prove Protestantism is true to influence others but I don’t want to preach Protestantism while I don’t have influence. Ofcourse it could be right but I think one should only join the church if one can not know

 

[mikeforjesus]

I decided I should trust God and leave judgement to Him. I do think it is important to be baptised and communion also is a command one may have to do and maybe communion is necessary for sanctification so I seek to follow a church that does that. It is up to God if others can be saved. But I seek to learn from all maybe they are saved it is up to God but one should get baptized and have communion to be sure. Therefore I don't think I can say other christians who will not be baptized and have communion are being saved. I must assume such are essential and they should be. Only God knows if others are saved. What stops the living from doing so and leaving judgement to God?

 

[mikeforjesus]

I believe God wants me to have faith it is not baptism or communion that saves you ultimately but one faith in Jesus and ones walk with God for it is one faith that gives one the Holy Spirit as with the gentiles who received the Holy Spirit through faith.

Baptism and communion gives one the full experience to be fully united to God now to be saved upon death

 

[mikeforjesus]

I made this quote in thread Jesus said if you abide in my words you are my disciples indeed and you shall know the truth and the truth will set you free I suppose it is reasonable one can seek to be baptized and have communion one should obey Christ first it only makes sense to obey Christ above all yet it is still up to God if He accepts others it may not be essential

Also about baptism and maybe communion they could be essential so one should do them it is up to God if He accepts others but we should assume it is essential others we’re disobedient to the bible command and neglected teaching it it is up to God if He accepts them if it was not neglect if they believed differently or really had good intentions believing one should trust God and to show the love of God that no lack of ordinance will stop God from accepting a person who wants to follow Him that He would not require such to make people trust God that He would not demand an ordinance but they should not speak for God for God may want to test one love for Him if they will submit to Him and love Him even if no one else obeys when command seems it could be essential and that others should understand that they may have no excuse not to obey it as it can be argued the bible says it definitely may be necessary but those who want to do the will of God should seek to do it as people should be seeking to obey the commandments of God as one should be concerned about the living only as one is not definitely judgemental of the dead if one does not teach he knows for sure he knows it is essential but he is prepared to save himself if it is essential that is not showing lack of concern to the living like it is for those who become catholic not caring about stumbling blocks because that is following a path you don’t know is right that people may not understand and believes you are judging them and could stumble others but this should not as such can not be argued that it is not the right thing to do as it may be necessary and others should understand more because one should not argue with Jesus words that are certainly true and we do not know what it means and it seems it would not stumble others for them to understand that you are leaving judgement to God unlike to Catholicism

 

[Albion]

Mike, because you have been pondering this decision for some time and are still uncertain, you would do well to take positive steps other than thinking and reading about church history and so on.

You could start by attending worship services at one or several of the churches that are high on your list. Just as a visitor.

The personal experience of being with those congregations at worship is very helpful in showing you what that faith is like. Then, if your choices narrow, speak with the pastor/priest about an inquirers' class or whatever they might offer in the way of formal instruction to prospective members.

 

[mikeforjesus]

Thankyou I have thought of going to a church which will do such ordinances in a respectful manner. As I have been baptized I do not believe I need to but it could be more helpful to get baptized again while being a believer if that would make me more able to be united to God in this world. I want a minister who will respect the formula given in the bible and treat the ordinances properly in the right manner as taught by the bible