I give up.

[Rize]

Being a universalist teaches one to be patient since one has to keep repeating ones self (though not necessarily to the same person).

1)  Only first century Christians... eh?  I'm not a preterist (not yet at least ).  I was pretty sure that everyone dies/died because of Adam.  Or was that only first century Christians as well?  As I was saying earlier, I believe that preterists have some valid points, but that they might be going a little too far.  I'll have to finish learning about preterism to decide.

2)  Concerning non-believers, I don't know if you've read this whole thread, but it's been pretty well established that the greek phrase "then the completion" means that the rest of the dead are resurrected (or more accurately "made alive") after those who are christs at his coming.  Note that in the Greek, there is a comma after verse 23, not a period as in most modern "translations".

3)  I guess only those first century Christians are lucky enough to have eternal life

Allow me to clarify where we differ (in particular, my beliefs; you'll have to clarify your own).

I do not believe that "faith" is not a necessary component of "salvation".  Just that eventually, everyone will be saved.  Universalists (at least, ones who don't wish to have a billion "belief" verses thrown at them) don't reject the idea that one must believe to be "saved".

Yes, universalists (again, the smart ones) believe in an infinite number of chances after death.  However, as the fella from Yale (first link in my sig) pointed out, the belief in chances after death is based on the clear teaching of universalism, not vice versa.

Even so, there are a few verses that suggest such a thing in 1 Peter.  Verses 3:18-20 and 4:6.  Note that in 4:6, the NIV adds a word, "now", before "those who are dead", that is not in the original text.  These are not clear, but they are not at all difficult (and entirely expected) for universalists.

---------------------------

I don't particularly want to "debate" this topic any more.  But if any of you have questions that I can answer, I would be more than happy to answer them.

I'm not backing down from this.  At the very least, I see it as a plausible (if not, then compelling) teaching from the Bible.  Even more so, I find it to be the most logical of Christian beliefs.  I confess that I am big on logic.  This new idea has increased my faith dramatically.  I know a lot of non-universalists have this idea that the doctrine will make people not care about God because then they can get saved at any old time.

To that I say: it has not made me not care about God.  And if a person can use this doctrine (assuming they believe it of course) as an excuse not to follow God, then they never loved, or had an inclination to love, God in the first place.

What this doctrine has done is released me from the ministry of death.  The burden of legalism that, no matter how much I believed in grace, I just couldn't seem to shirk off.  Now I feel like I am free to stop caring and worrying about myself, and start caring for others.

Even if I'm wrong, I still believe that one needs to come to repentance in faith to be "saved", and I am still teaching that.  If I'm wrong, then God will just have to spare me as one coming through flames:  1 Corinthians 3:10-15.  If I'm right, then the ones coming through those flames will be the "unsaved".

 

[armothe]

Today at 02:48 AM Rize said this in Post #61
Even so, there are a few verses that suggest such a thing in 1 Peter.  Verses 3:18-20 and 4:6.  Note that in 4:6, the NIV adds a word, "now", before "those who are dead", that is not in the original text.  These are not clear, but they are not at all difficult (and entirely expected) for universalists.

Hopefully as you become more familiar with the Preterist view, you'll come to understand that the "spirits in prison" in 1st Peter refer to all the peoples who died (and were being held in Hades) prior to Christ's 2nd coming. Even THOSE people were seperated and judged based upon their works and deeds. (Revelation 20:11-15) Not all of them were saved. Yet, I digress from any further Preterist remarks.

Today at 02:48 AM Rize said this in Post #61
I know a lot of non-universalists have this idea that the doctrine will make people not care about God because then they can get saved at any old time.

Well, it seems that at the least you believe "everyone" is saved by believing Christ died to cover man's sins. You see, if you do not believe this, then I'm afraid you are in direct violation of the scriptures I posted, as well as posting your views in this forum.

With that said, you still haven't proven through scripture how man has several chances, even after he physically dies, to be redeemed. The Bible speaks of only one spiritual judgement (White Throne Judgement) in which many are are saved, and many will experience the "second death". The only event that happens after the Great White Throne Judgement is the establishment of the New Jerusalem on Earth. Nothing else. End the Bible.

Chronologically, where do we see the souls experiencing the second death being led to redemption? Am I missing a book of my Bible?

I'd really like to know how you percieve the "second death".

What's the second death like?
What do the souls do during the second death?
By what means are the souls of the dead tortured there?
By what means is the gospel preached to them?
Are the souls tortured until they believe? (under duress?)
Once the soul believes, are they rocketed to Heaven?

Please provide scriptural support for your answers (if possible)

-A

 

[EveOfGrace]

Rize i know you said you do not wish to debate this topic anymore but can i please address a couple of things you said to me? Surely you can sit through this one. I do so enjoy your zeal, even if i think it far fetched at times.

Perhaps i should tell you, as i said previously and said i would get back to, that i am not so sure that the wicked are left in that lake of fire for the ages of ages or forever and ever, or eternity or whatever you want to call it. They have their 'part' there yes, but to spend the ages of ages there, i dont think so. Remember, the wicked are judged 'according to their works'. The time of works is before the judgement. They wont be saved by faith. When Jesus stands before them, faith is no longer a valid option. They will bow, and confess Him as Lord that is for sure. Marilyn Manson(if he does not repent now) will be on his knees saying: Yes, You are Lord, have always been Lord and always will be. Please, please have mercy on me. Its easy to believe what is standing before your eyes.  

Ok, so about this: 

When I said spiritual, I mean the spiritual body. The same kind that Jesus recieved as the firstfruits of the resurrection.   it's not so much that the resurrection is spiritual or physical, it's just that people who are "made alive in Christ" are clearly "saved".  Otherwise, you would be saying that Jesus had to die just as much to raise the righteous as to raise the sinners for condemnation.  That is a notion that I do not find to be tenable.

You might say that we are spiritually alive, but then you might not. Paul said that we will be changed instantaneously at the "rapture" (whatever that is/was since we have a preterist here). That is the kind of "making alive" we are talking about, not a resurrection for judgment. So again, you have to try to limit the all which cannot be fairly done.

These two quotes contradict each other. The first sais it doesnt matter whether the resurrection is spiritual or physical, and yet Jesus recieved a spiritual body to replace His physical one. That is the key Rize. There is a physical body and a spiritual, and everyone will receive a spiritual body. ALL bodies will be raised from dust (earth) and given a spiritual body. The second quote sais exactly what i just did. Paul said we will be changed instantantly at the rapture, like Jesus was when He ascended(resurrected)as the firstfruits. What is a firstfruit? Its the greek aparche, an offering of the production of the earth, taken away. It is a superior first from the same class. Remember, Jesus died only PHYSICALLY. His soul remained alive, which is how He conqured death(spiritual death). The veil was rent, the wall between us and God was broken. He is the FIRST from the EARTH. The vine. We are the branches of it. Man is made from EARTH. The word "order"(each man in his order) is the greek tagma, a body of soldiers,a band or class. We, at His coming, are of the same CLASS.  Those when the 'end' comes are not. 

Paul also said, the dead in Christ (sleeping) are raised first and we who are alive and remain, meet them. They surely are alive ALSO, but just do not remain on earth. They await their spiritual body, and we are changed from corruption(flesh) to incorruption(spirit). Its a body. Our souls DO NOT CHANGE.  So if what Paul means is that its a purely spiritual change, our flesh remains as is. The souls under the altar in Revelations are obviously alive. When ALL are made alive, they recieve a spiritual body.  Each one goes in order, according to what 'class' they are in. Are you proposing the resurrection is after the judgement?  You said, its not a resurrection to judgement. What is it to then? The order sais, Christ, us, then the end when the kingdom is delivered and all else is put under Him. So they are put under Him first and then resurrected? That doesnt fit with Revelations or John 5.

The thing about raising the bible, it was purely an accident but the recipient of the power it brought was set free from an evil angel, who knew its potency.

   

Certainly there is nothing that man can do to warrant God's grace. It must be a gift. But what about "accepting" the gift in faith before we die? Isn't that a sort of work? If salvation is truly a free gift, then it should always be available, even after death. And though we may not deserve God's forgiveness and grace, I don't believe that means we deserve to be torturted for eternity either. That's ridiculous.

 Your idea of torture sounds like something physical. Rize torture is being without God. And accepting the gift in faith is not so much a work, but a decision to be free from that torture.  It can only be accepted in faith now, in the present age of that grace. After you die, or when Jesus returns, faith has become sight.

  

All died in Adam spiritually, just as you said, before they were even born. They were conceived in death. In the same way, all will be made alive because of Christ. That is, restored to the pre Adamic state. The work of Adam will be reversed and every person will live. Again, Christ didn't die to raise sinners to an everlasting torment. If that is the price of raising the righteous (who can't even be righteous accept by God's gift through faith), then God is selfish in the extreme. Could you happily accept God's gift of salvation knowing that for each saved individual, God was forced to sacrifice another 10 or so (I'm being generous here) people to eternal torment?

Okay first,if the 'all will be made alive because of Christ' means restored to the pre Adamic state, then the order listed is incorrect.  Jesus restored that state already. I am restored NOW. Repent=return, to the highest place. I have dominion now. Beleivers can heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out devils. I dont have to wait for Jesus to return in the clouds to be restored. The blood is for man on earth, right here right now. Cleansed from sin and reconciled.  And no Christ didnt die to raise sinners to an everlasting torment.  The price of raising the righteous isnt those who refuse the gift, its the sacrifice made to give it. God is not the selfish one. Man is. God forces no one and hell was created for the devil and his angels, not man. Man is the one who left, and refuses to return because they find themselves having too much fun without Him, and ignore the sacrifice He DID make. 

Rize do you force your wife to love you by taking away her choice to stay with you? Do you chain her in the house to make her stay? How would you know if she really loves you? Open the door, loose the chains, let her choose to stay. If you love something, set it free. If it comes back to you, its yours. If it doesnt, it never was. Love it, by letting it go. It it chooses to be without you, and suffer, let it choose.

What exactly are we trying to save people from?  Themselves. We know what man is capable of without God. Look around you.  Not everyone wants to give themselves up.  Not everyone wants to put away their foolishness and embrace the One who gives them the breath that allows them to curse others. Few in fact, will give up their idols for a better life of blessing.  Havent you seen a person blatantly say: God? hahahaha, who cares. So what. I hate Him.  Of course when all is said and done, and Jesus stands on this earth again, they will be sorry.  The man who burns his house down because he played with fire and was warned is very sorry when he has no house.

You said earlier that we should bless a murderer for setting an unborn baby free from knowing life on earth. And if you had the choice you would have taken the way of being aborted yourself. Rize is your life so bad that you could say such a thing?  There is a song i like, goes something like: what could be so tragic that would make you want to take your life? You put your Savior on the cross, and put yourself upon the throne. Put yourself upon the cross. Put your Savior on the throne.  You are worth more than you can see.

Your idea of eternal torment i am not so sure about. Do you picture God standing over the fire and wringing His hands in delight?  Or perhaps you were abused and refuse to believe God rejects anyone and makes Himself the abuser. He sacrificed His own life to give us ours and proved His love.  We all deserve to suffer hell with the devil we all grew so fond of. No telling how loud the screams are of the blood shed upon this earth by evil men. God hears those screams Rize. He gave responsiblity of this creation to man and what have we done to it. Hitlers concentration camps are but a fraction of what we know. But God has seen it all from the beginning. Do you think He has pleasure in suffering?  He does not. Rize the eternal torment of which you speak is a place without God. The second death is the eternal abscence of His presence. Its a place the defiled selfish haters of God and lovers of pleasure have chosen to be. He will not force a person to love Him. He will avenge the screams of the earth and cast the abominable far from Him and His. That dear brother, is torment.  They will be outside of the Holy City for ages of ages because they will not inherit all things. God is not mocked, what a man sows, that shall he reap.

Hebrews 1:8 Your throne O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

And its gates shall not be shut at all by day(there shall be no night there). And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lambs Book of Life.

And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him.

Blessed are those who do His commendments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. 

 

There you have it Rize. The Lamb is on the throne forever and ever. Those not in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire, which is the second death.  The fire does not purge them and allow salvation because it clearly sais only those written therein may eat the tree of life, and enter into the city.

EveOfGrace   

  

 

 

 

 

[Rize]

Armothe:

Concerning preterism and 1 Peter:

Obviously, preterism changes a lot of Biblical interpretation.  Even so, the fact that "spirits" in "prison" (which I do understand to be Hades/Sheol) were preached to after death suggests to me that salvation may be accepted after death.  And perhaps after judgment as well (unless judgment is meant to inflict an irreversible and endless punishment which is extremely unsubstantiated imo).

Concerning belief and salvation:

Yes, I do believe that one must believe to be saved.  I'm still trying to find out what belief saves one from though.  The traditional idea is that it saves one from the lake of fire (Hell in other words).  That may not be accurate though.  Even so, the difference would be subtle and not of great importance since whatever we're being saved from, repenting and believing saves us from it.

Concerning proof that man has several chances:

And you have not proved that they don't have several chances after death/judgment.  In case you've forgotten.  Just because that is the orthodox belief does not mean that it shouldn't also be substantiated.  A limited amount of chances does not make sense to me when we have a God who loves everyone and desires that everyone be saved.

Concerning the "nothing else. end of the Bible" thing.

The lake of fire could be very complicated.  Is there any particular reason that God should have gone into great detail about it?  If the universalist position is made clear by the rest of the Bible, then second death quite naturally tells someone of the death of sin through some means (that may take a significant amount of time).  Christians accomplish this on earth through faith in/of Christ.  How it could be accomplished in the lake of fire, I it's useless to speculate.  But the majority of Christians for 400 or 500 years had no problem with it.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/5centsum.html

As for what I believe about the second death, as I said above, it's fairly useless to speculate.  It could be anything.  I'll humor you just a little though.  I have a feeling that whatever it is, there would be a single removal of everyone from the lake of fire rather than individuals "rocketing up to heaven" as you said.  Perhaps those who repent in the lake of fire will need to help others just like Christians help others on Earth.

And you know, a lot of scriptures talk about the "belief in the name of Jesus" rather than just simple belief in Jesus.  And James goes to great lengths to explain that simple belief is not the same as faith.  Just because people in the lake of fire have been judged and assumedly seen God, does not mean that they will have faith because of it.  The name of Jesus means "Yahweh delivers/saves" or something close to that.  I leave the details up to God since that is clearly the way it was meant to be (or else the details of the lake of fire would be in the Bible).

The idea that people have to believe before they die because belief would be "to easy" after they die is rather silly.  I thought salvation was a gift not work.  Why is "easy/hard" coming into the picture?

EveofGrace:

Concerning my stopping debate:

That doesn't mean I will stop responding and talking, but in particular, I don't want to spend extensive amounts of time trying to "convert" ordinary Christians to my beliefs.  I'd just like to make them aware that it's possible to believe such a thing for good Biblical reasons.  Some day, perhaps when a child, friend or relative dies and goes to "Hell", they may have a great crisis of faith that could be helped by the possibility that that person won't be roasted forever.

Concerning belief/faith after death:

Read my comments to Amorthe.

Concering my contradicting quotes:

I'm merely human.  In expressing my thoughts, it is expected that I will contradict (though only the expression not the thought contradicted).

So, if everyone receives the spiritual resurrection bodies, then what is the tree of life (Genesis 3and Revelation 22) for?  And what is the "gift" of zoe aionios?  I guess it would have to be where you go not what you get.  I just find it a bit ad hoc.

And what exactly puts us in the same class as Jesus and the "completion" in another?  Other than your theology of course

You don't have to explain that the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is of the spiritual body, just that the third one is the resurrection unto condemnation rather than the final resurrection when the "completion" are ushered into heaven like the rest of us thus making the Father all in all.

And that's not something we can really prove in either direction.

Concerning torture:

It doesn't matter what kind of torture it is.  It doesn't matter of God merely locks the wicked in a little solitary confinement sell for eternity.  It's still torture.

As for accepting the gift in faith not being a work, are you sure?  Couldn't a person boast about their faith?  "Why can't you have faith, I came to faith so easily!  Man, one day I just knew I needed to repent and BAM I had faith!"  Sounds like something that can be boasted about to me.  That makes it a work.  Yet Jesus said that no man can come to Him unless the Father draws him.  I'm not sure if we play any part in coming to have faith.  Of course, that's impossible if people are not all going to be saved eventually.

So, you're one of those people who believe that non-Christians "choose" to be tormented forever.  That is naive and only born of a need to explain away something that is unexplainable.  No one chooses to be tormented forever.  And if anyone knew what the choices were, no one in their right mind would not choose God.  They just don't realize that God has their best interests at heart yet.

Concerning the pre Adamic state:

You are not in a pre Adamic state now (physically I meant).

God created people knowing that many of them would end up in Hell.  If Hell is eternal torment and God can't do anything about it, doesn't this make God both powerless and unloving in the extreme (if not downright evil)?

It has nothing to do with freedom.  It has to do with God consigning people to be tormented forever.  There is no reason for it, and for a perfect God, it should be unacceptable.  In fact, I know it is unacceptable which is why I don't believe it.

Concerning me and abortion:

NO.  I said I would have rather been aborted IF eternal torment is true.  I know that it is not, and I know that in allowing me to be born, God truly did have my best interests at heart.  I am not at risk of eternal torment at all.  I am being perfected through suffering just as Christ was.

The point to make was that if eternal torment is true, ah, it's not worth pointing out anymore.  If you want to blindly believe it because you think it's in the Bible go ahead.  I know that it's ridiculous though.

Concerning the exact nature of eternal torment:

It doesn't matter WHAT it is.  God is omnipotent, so whatever is happening, He has ultimate control over.  That includes all of the evil going on right now on earth.  God lets it happen which is just as good as doing it himself.  The reason he allows it, is because it is part of his ultimate good.  However, when we "sin", God does not "sin" (miss the mark) because in sinning, we are doing exactly what God knew we would do.  God is responsible for everything.  In the same way that we arrest a parent for neglect when their child hurts/kills itself due to being allowed freedom in an unsafe environment.  God is ultimately responsible for us.  That is why He sent Jesus to save us all, and that is why, eventually, we will all be saved.

But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. 

We were all sinners once.  These are people who are still sinners at the time when we are in heaven.  Of course they cannot be allowed in.  But just as we eventually repented and came to salvation, there is no reason that they cannot do the same.

And no, the Lamb is not on the throne forever and ever.  1 Corinthians 15:22-28 makes it clear that Jesus will eventually subject himself to God when everyone is saved.

 

[Rize]

Concerning salvation from within the lake of fire.  Even though people will have seen God, what if they are content there?  Just like people on earth are content to get saved at the last minute instead of right now.  That's just another quick point that faith (believing and acting on that belief) won't necessarily be any easier in the LoF than it is here.  Most eternal tormentors seem keen on making the LoF a place where people are self tormented by their own circumstances rather than God anyway.

I know that no one is going to be tormented forever.  It's just not going to happen.  Not unless God is evil which He is not (if He is, we're all screwed anyway).

 

[armothe]

Rize,

Definitely some good observations. I'm glad there are people like you questioning these things, rather than just believing everything they are told.

My problem with the whole redemption after "second death" is logistical in nature. Here are my thoughts:

1) Non-christian dies and enters the "second death"
2) Immediately the torment starts
3) Immediately the proclaimation of the Gospel starts
4) Soul realizes he can stop the torture by accepting the gospel
5) Soul accepts Christ as the savior to all man, and shoots up to Heaven.

At least that is how I would interpret your idea of "hell".

I mean, why would someone reject the gospel and choose torment/torture?

With this in mind, if everyone is eventually saved, why does the "second death" even exist? Why not just ship everyone to Heaven after they die and preach the gospel to them when they get there?

-A

 

[EveOfGrace]

What is the tree of life for? Spiritual sustainment of life. Just as Adam had in Eden. Who eats of it? Those written in the Lambs Book of Life.  When is the Book of Life openned? At the great whtie throne judgement....at which time the wicked who are NOT written therein are cast away. Is is written of another Book Of Life after this judgement?  I cant find one.

 

And what exactly puts us in the same class as Jesus and the "completion" in another? Other than your theology of course

Jesus being 'firstfruits' as the bible stated. Not my theology, the bible said it. aparche and tagma. He is the vine, and Christians are the branches. The completion stated: two parts. One is the deliverance of the aparche class, the other is the subjection of the 'rest' as you called them.

 

You don't have to explain that the resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 is of the spiritual body, just that the third one is the resurrection unto condemnation rather than the final resurrection when the "completion" are ushered into heaven like the rest of us thus making the Father all in all.

Does it say the completion is the usherring into heaven like the rest?  See what i just posted above. Jesus also makes Himself subject to God at that time, for He must riegn, till he hath put all enemies under His feet. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. God may be all in all, not the Father. All in all? Does that say anything about all people being saved? Or does it say, the Father , the Son and the Holy Spirit will be as they were(One God) before the rebellion which made it necessary for them to take separate parts in the creation and redemption. Jesus returns as King of Kings, to judge, as is given unto Him to do. After doing so, the entire creation is subject to that judgement, and even submits Himself. To say there is salvation after that judgement, places Him once again outside of that subjection, and incorporates yet another plan of salvation into the first.

 

And if anyone knew what the choices were, no one in their right mind would not choose God. They just don't realize that God has their best interests at heart yet.

Is this an exuse for man? Have you witnessed to people who perfectly understand but still say..."oh blah, i dont need God"? Even the creation speaks of His goodness, so that NO man is without exuse.

   

You are not in a pre Adamic state now (physically I meant).

Exactly. Spiritually we are already restored. Making the resurrection in 1Cor.15 from physical bodies, to spritiual, not the soul.

 

It doesn't matter WHAT it is. God is omnipotent, so whatever is happening, He has ultimate control over. That includes all of the evil going on right now on earth. God lets it happen which is just as good as doing it himself. The reason he allows it, is because it is part of his ultimate good. However, when we "sin", God does not "sin" (miss the mark) because in sinning, we are doing exactly what God knew we would do. God is responsible for everything.

He is? And who made Him responsible? Was He created and given that responsiblilty? Or did He alone decide to save us from our own rebellion? He GAVE man the responsibility in the beginning. "and Let him have dominion". He stands by His word. There you go placing blame on God for what man does. Do you know that is exactly what the satanists say? We are not robots Rize. Or are we? 

If God allows evil because it is part of the ultimate good, if He allows people to choose torment(life without Him) NOW, what makes you think He wont continue? He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy let him be filthy still;....  

 

God is ultimately responsible for us. That is why He sent Jesus to save us all

He sent Himself because He was responsible for us? On the contrary. He CHOSE to save us, not because He HAD to. If we want to place blame, lets place where it belongs. We are still responsible for our own actions, not God.

 

 

But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. 

We were all sinners once.  These are people who are still sinners at the time when we are in heaven.  Of course they cannot be allowed in.  But just as we eventually repented and came to salvation, there is no reason that they cannot do the same.

There is one very important reason. Their names are not written in the Lambs Book of Life.

 

And no, the Lamb is not on the throne forever and ever. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 makes it clear that Jesus will eventually subject himself to God when everyone is saved.

The Lamb is its light. And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it.....throne of God and of the Lamb.  Jesus WILL subject himself to God, when everyTHING is put in subjection, and when His enemies are put under His feet. Then God will be all in all. See above.

 

In summary what you are saying then, if i have it correct, is that the lake of fire is a cleansing, or purging or punishment for the purpose of bringing all to repentance so that all will eventually be saved. So instead of being worthy by the blood, they are made worthy through temporary torment and suffering.  So we have two options. We can be saved by the blood, or we can be saved by torment. Hm, why didnt Jesus tell us that?

He did tell us to preach the gospel(tell the good news) that He came and died on the cross to save the world. He didnt say the lake of fire is our second option. Is that what you are telling the unsaved now?  If a satanist for example asks you about being saved, you can simply tell him his beliefs are ok, and he can be saved later and go on ahead and keep worshipping satan? If Jesus was just an 'option' and not really the way, truth, and life, why didnt He tell us the lake of fire was also the way, truth and life?  You have to do some pretty fancy scripture manipulation to come up with that scenario.

Matt.25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

same greek word there used, in the same verse. So one is right and the other wrong? 

God is Love. But God also gets angry, has wrath, is jealous, and hates. Paint the whole picture here without the emotional rose colored glasses Rize and you might be able to accept that you have been 'enchanted' into beleiving something not good for you.

Because i care, EveOfGrace  

  

 

 

[Rize]

Yesterday at 05:34 PM armothe said this in Post #66

Rize,

Definitely some good observations. I'm glad there are people like you questioning these things, rather than just believing everything they are told.

My problem with the whole redemption after "second death" is logistical in nature. Here are my thoughts:

1) Non-christian dies and enters the "second death"
2) Immediately the torment starts
3) Immediately the proclaimation of the Gospel starts
4) Soul realizes he can stop the torture by accepting the gospel
5) Soul accepts Christ as the savior to all man, and shoots up to Heaven.

At least that is how I would interpret your idea of "hell".

I mean, why would someone reject the gospel and choose torment/torture?

With this in mind, if everyone is eventually saved, why does the "second death" even exist? Why not just ship everyone to Heaven after they die and preach the gospel to them when they get there?

-A

God knows the future. Why not just ship everyone who's going to heaven there now, and everyone who's going to hell there?  Why have a judgment if God already knows how he's going to judge people?  Obviously, a lot of things occur exclusively for our benefit.  That would not change if eveyone were going to be saved eventually.

1) Non-christian dies and enters the "second death"
2) Immediately the torment starts
3) Immediately the proclaimation of the Gospel starts
4) Soul realizes he can stop the torture by accepting the gospel
5) Soul accepts Christ as the savior to all man, and shoots up to Heaven.

Let me try:

1) Non-Christian dies and enters Hades
2) Non-Christian is raised for judgment as described in Revelation
3) Non-Christian is judged
4) Non-Christian is tossed in the lake of fire (which is the second death)
5) Some kind of torment begins at some point
6) Somehow, the gospel is made known at some point
7) Non-Christian repents and is saved at some point
8) Non-Christion goes to Heaven, either immediately or at some new "end of the world" type deal

Why would someone reject the Gospel in this life and choose eternal torment.  Eve of Grace seems to be one of those "you choose Hell" people.  If that were true, no one would be going to the lake of fire.

As I said above, there's no telling what would be going on the LoF.  Things could be a lot different there than any of us would imagine.

 

[Rize]

Concerning "the rest":

That verse does not divide them into classes.  It says those "then those who are his at his coming/presence" and "then the rest".  All this absolutely gives us is two different groups separated by time.  And we know that both groups will have been made alive in Christ in the opposite manner that they died in Adam.  Again I ask, if Christ hadn't died, would no one have been resurrected to go to torment forever?  That's a pretty stiff price and a pretty huge screw-up if Jesus came to save the world rather than condemn it.  What if everyone freely decided to reject Jesus even though He died for us?  Does that mean that God sent Jesus with the potential of ultimate failure?

Concerning Jesus ruling until all of his enemies are subdued etc:

I would imagine that this has to do with every knee bowing and every tongue confessing that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father.  Question:  would it be glorious for Jesus to force everyone to bow to Him just before sending them off to be tormented forever?  I don't buy it.  Until everyone is saved, Jesus' work is not finished.  If one person is not saved, Jesus failed in his work for He was sent to save everyone.  Jesus is the Good Shepherd.  Regardless of how uncooperative the sheep that has fallen into the pit is, Jesus isn't going to back down until He pulls it to safety.  Did it ever occur to you that very little detail is given of the afterlife because we should be more concerned with the here and now?

Is this an exuse for man? Have you witnessed to people who perfectly understand but still say..."oh blah, i dont need God"? Even the creation speaks of His goodness, so that NO man is without exuse:

No one on earth perfectly understands anything.  Remember, now we see as through a dark glass, then we will see clearly.  No one on earth has freely rejected God in favor of eternal torment.  It is not possible to rationally choose eternal torment over eternal bliss.  Anyone who does that is not rational and has thus not made a completely free choice.

Concerning God's responsibility:

God is God.  He cannot avoid responsibility.  God does not have to control our actions to be responsible for them.  God allowed us to fall into sin, and so He will rescue us from sin.  All of us.  He already has, in fact, taken the sin (singular) of the world away (John 1:31).

Concerning God allowing us to choose evil temporarily verses forever:

Again, I have serious doubts about man's ability to do anything forever.  That includes being good forever upon entering heaven.  Fortunately, we will have God's help with that (perhaps the removal of temptation and restoration from sin will do it).  The only way that ALL of the judged will stay in Hell forever is if God forces them too.  Where is free will now?  You might be able to hold to the idea that a few people could resist God's love forever.  But a Hell that is bursting at the seems would surely contain at least one person who is willing to repent after getting there.  Will God let them out, or will judgment be "set" as in the silly book written by Mary K. Baxter.

Concering why God/Jesus saved us:

Are you so sure that He didn't have to save us?  God cannot lie.  He cannot do evil (true evil, temporary evil with a good end is not true evil).  God is love.

I would say that this pretty much forces Him to save us if He has allowed us to stray in the first place.  The Shepherd let His sheep go so that we would learn what it means to be apart from Him.  Soon the entire flock will be gathered back.  The Good Shepherd left the entire flock for a single sheep.  Do you think He'll leave the vast majority of human beings to be tormented forever?  What a silly idea.  Responsibility isn't about who to blame.  It's about who is responsible.  God is responsible for us and we are also responsible for us.  That is why salvation is a two way street, and that is why God will not give up on us.  Even after we've been tossed in the lake of fire.

Concerning the book of life and salvation from the lake of fire:

If you're not saved on earth, then your name isn't in the book of life right now.  Does that mean that you cannot be saved?  No, because the book can be written in and modified in case you never noticed the verses that speak of adding and erasing names to and from the book of life.

Is there anything that says that the book of life can't be reopened after judgment?  Why would He lose this ability after the dead have been judged?  The only thing we know for certain is that evil people will not get into the Kingdom and that those people's names are not currently in the book of life.  You have to learn to understand what scripture is silent on.  Trying to fill the blanks in ourselves isn't a good idea.  That's how we got stuff like geocentricism.

So instead of being worthy by the blood, they are made worthy through temporary torment and suffering.

And you are made worthy by what?  By, of your own power, having faith?  Is that still grace then?  The only way that salvation can truly be a free gift that is not at all achieved by our own work is if everyone eventually gets it (unless God isn't fair/just of course).

In other words, of course the aren't saved "by torment".  Though torment may be a means of bringing them to faith and repentence.

Matt.25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

same greek word there used, in the same verse. So one is right and the other wrong?

aionios = of the age

Life of the age, punishment of the age.  In other words, the word may not refer to duration but to the age in which the gift is recieved and in which the punishment takes place (the age that begins with the judgment in other words).

God is Love. But God also gets angry, has wrath, is jealous, and hates.

I think you're confusing a few descriptive terms used in the Old Testament with God's very nature.  Again, it is meaningless to say that God is love if we cannot learn something from it.  Why not say, God is loving or God loves.  I think nothing else was used becuase it would sell God short.  God is love.  Think about it.

Can God act without love?

Is it possible to irrevocably sentence someone to eternal torment as an act of love?

If God can at without love, is it accurate to say that God is love?  What else could it mean?

 

[EveOfGrace]

That verse does not divide them into classes. It says those "then those who are his at his coming/presence" and "then the rest". All this absolutely gives us is two different groups separated by time. And we know that both groups will have been made alive in Christ in the opposite manner that they died in Adam. Again I ask, if Christ hadn't died, would no one have been resurrected to go to torment forever? That's a pretty stiff price and a pretty huge screw-up if Jesus came to save the world rather than condemn it. What if everyone freely decided to reject Jesus even though He died for us? Does that mean that God sent Jesus with the potential of ultimate failure?

 Two different groups? separated by time? Why are they separated? The word HIS, at His coming tells us which tagma(band,class) that is, while the 'rest' does not say HIS. The HIS are of the tagma(band,class) of 'firstfruits', the earths redeemed. If you used that word order(tagma)in referring to picking fruit from an orchard in their order(band, class), Christ symbolizing apples for example, it would mean the apples(HIS) are picked first, and the oranges, pears, etc... are left for later. Only apples make applesauce. The firstfruits are spiritually alive(HIS) while the 'rest' are spritually dead(not HIS). They all are raised into an immortal body. The state of the soul determines the order(tagma) in which they are given that body.

If Christ hadnt died then of course yes, no one would be resurrected at all and would remain dead under satans rule forever, torment for sure. What if is not answerrable since God did KNOW that some would accept Jesus and therefore the failure aspect is not considered. Even if just one person accepted Him, Jesus' death was not in vain.

 

Question: would it be glorious for Jesus to force everyone to bow to Him just before sending them off to be tormented forever? I don't buy it.

I am glad you dont buy that because Jesus forces no one to bow. At His coming, and the brightness of it, doesnt Matt. say they(unsaved)run and hide? Trust me on this one, they WILLINGLY bow and confess because they KNOW Jesus is Lord and they know their end has come.  

Until everyone is saved, Jesus' work is not finished. If one person is not saved, Jesus failed in his work for He was sent to save everyone. Jesus is the Good Shepherd. Regardless of how uncooperative the sheep that has fallen into the pit is, Jesus isn't going to back down until He pulls it to safety.

Jesus work(redemtive) was finished on the cross. Even if just ONE is saved, He did not fail. After His resurrection, God placed Him at His right hand, that He should reign and when He returns as King to judge, the work is made manifest(comes to pass).  The Good Shepherd does not rescue goats. Just His sheep. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will say to those on the left hand, "Depart for Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...".  Although its nice to wish that werent true, it is.

  

Did it ever occur to you that very little detail is given of the afterlife because we should be more concerned with the here and now?

The entire NT gives detail of the afterlife. Rev. has 2 entire chapters so we dont need to add what we want to be true. Joel, Ezek. Isa.,Psalms,etc...has details as well. And yes we should be concerned with here and now.

Concercing man being able to choose freely, perhaps you underestimate the power of the dim glass through which we see. Even dimly, we can see the God is good and evil is not. Have ever listenned to death metal? I dont recommend it but those authors ADVOCATE hell, torment and hatred for God and entice our children to do the same. People choose evil because they LOVE their flesh. God is serious about this and even sends them delusion so they can continue in their lustfull deeds. Man is rebellious and selfish, not stupid. I havent read the silly book by Mary Baxter so i dont know what she sais. When someone arrives in the hell they desired, i am positive they are ALL sorry at that point, and when they are raised they will be judged according to what they did in their flesh. Only God can say what happens to them when 'the books are opened'.

You said that accepting the gift of salvation by faith is a work. God gives every man a measure of faith. You also said that salvation is a two way street. With that i do agree, since acceptance of the gift is part of our end of the street.

 

Again, I have serious doubts about man's ability to do anything forever. That includes being good forever upon entering heaven. Fortunately, we will have God's help with that (perhaps the removal of temptation and restoration from sin will do it)

Ahaa. There you have it Rize. Meditate on that. The only thing that gives us the choice NOW is the temptation. The tree of the knoweldge of good and evil was Adams temptation. Satan uses our flesh nature to tempt us in the same way. In the afterlife, no temptation remains. We have immortal bodies remember?  We are judged according to what we did in the flesh. Matt. sais:if those days were not shortened no flesh would be saved. That also brings us to the Book of Life being 'reopened'. There is no adding or blotting mentioned at all in the afterlife. It is after life. Life here, in our fleshly natured bodies, and how we choose what we serve, flesh or spirit, is written in That Book of Life. 

   

Life of the age, punishment of the age. In other words, the word may not refer to duration but to the age in which the gift is recieved and in which the punishment takes place (the age that begins with the judgment in other words).

Exactly. Except for one thing, the age doesnt begin with judgement, it begins AFTER  judgement. Jesus is saying there that the punishment and life is given AFTER He judges. So whatever age that is, begins after judgement.

 

1) Non-Christian dies and enters Hades
2) Non-Christian is raised for judgment as described in Revelation
3) Non-Christian is judged
4) Non-Christian is tossed in the lake of fire (which is the second death)
5) Some kind of torment begins at some point
6) Somehow, the gospel is made known at some point
7) Non-Christian repents and is saved at some point
8) Non-Christion goes to Heaven, either immediately or at some new "end of the world" type deal

I have no argument with numbers 1-5. When you get to 6 however, at the somehow, you are saying someone righteous must enter that realm of torment. The gospel is ALREADY made known to them way before the judgement. In fact the gospel is known to them before number 1! The bible sais that the gospel is preached throughout the entire world before Jesus comes. He is a righteous judge Rize. Number 7 then is pointless, since the judgement for not accepting the good news of the gospel occured in number 3. Number 8 sounds more like wishful speculation with 'some new type deal'.

Take heed to this: For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.  

Does a loving God add plagues to people? Obviously yes.

 

 

[armothe]

Yesterday at 01:33 PM Rize said this in Post #68 
1) Non-Christian dies and enters Hades
2) Non-Christian is raised for judgment as described in Revelation
3) Non-Christian is judged
4) Non-Christian is tossed in the lake of fire (which is the second death)
5) Some kind of torment begins at some point
6) Somehow, the gospel is made known at some point
7) Non-Christian repents and is saved at some point
8) Non-Christion goes to Heaven, either immediately or at some new "end of the world" type deal 

When you complete your study of Preterism, you'll learn that Hades no longer exists. I do believe Christ preached something (the gospel?) to those in Hades at some point, so; in that aspect I agree with you. Those prior to Christ's death and resurrection did have a chance to hear what may have been the gospel. However, you still believe Hades exists, and I don't. Hence, this is why I believe what I do about the fate of non-christians after death.

According to your model (above), however; how long is a soul willing to endure torture before it accepts the gospel?

Logic would suggest that if the opportunity to forego torture was given to the soul upon arrival, they would take it and be redeemed from torture.

So my thought is that the split-second souls arrive at the Second Death they are immediately liberated to Heaven. Thus, why the need for the Second Death?

I mean, if I were a non-christian, and died, and was presented with torture, or escape...of course I'm going to choose to escape.
.....for the wrong reasons.....

-A

 

[EveOfGrace]

Armothe, Rize said he didnt mind if this discussion gets off topic since he started it, hehe, so i want to ask you something about what you just posted.

This was rather interesting:

I do believe Christ preached something (the gospel?) to those in Hades at some point, so; in that aspect I agree with you. Those prior to Christ's death and resurrection did have a chance to hear what may have been the gospel. However, you still believe Hades exists, and I don't. Hence, this is why I believe what I do about the fate of non-christians after death.

Ok, i am with you on the first part, the bible does say Jesus went to Hades and preached to them before He came back out of His tomb. He really is righteous and fair.  But i dont understand the part about Hades not existing anymore.  Where do the dead non believers go now?  And if Death and Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, where is Hades presently?

EveOfGrace

 

 

[Rize]

Why does this forum erase your post after you click submit?  Any time there's an error (say too many "pictures"/smilies) or more than one post in thirty seconds (which I do sometimes having more than one window open) it erases the entire post.

I'm not going to rewrite it though.  Perhaps it's meant to be.

I'll just rewrite the last sentence.

Why don't we quit trying to defend a position and start trying to learn something.

You start defending universalism and I'll start defending eternal torment

Why do I get the feeling that won't work

 

[Rize]

Today at 06:17 PM armothe said this in Post #71



When you complete your study of Preterism, you'll learn that Hades no longer exists. I do believe Christ preached something (the gospel?) to those in Hades at some point, so; in that aspect I agree with you. Those prior to Christ's death and resurrection did have a chance to hear what may have been the gospel. However, you still believe Hades exists, and I don't. Hence, this is why I believe what I do about the fate of non-christians after death.

According to your model (above), however; how long is a soul willing to endure torture before it accepts the gospel?

Logic would suggest that if the opportunity to forego torture was given to the soul upon arrival, they would take it and be redeemed from torture.

So my thought is that the split-second souls arrive at the Second Death they are immediately liberated to Heaven. Thus, why the need for the Second Death?

I mean, if I were a non-christian, and died, and was presented with torture, or escape...of course I'm going to choose to escape.
.....for the wrong reasons.....

-A

Who said you would be allowed to immediately escape?

Question, if "torture or escape" is the choice and one, after death, could choose escape for the wrong reasons, why can't that happen in life?  And if it can (and it definitely can) is that choice a real choice that works?  Would it even be possible to make a real choice to repent and love God while being roasted?  That's an easy no, or so it seems.  That's why I consider the possibility of a different system (so to speak) of salvation for those in the LoF.  It's possible that they may exit the LoF no more saved than when they went in and then do God knows what (literally) before being saved.  

The more difficult question is, is it any more possible to truly choose to love God on earth while truly believing in eternal torment?  Isn't torture or escape what the gospel of eternal torment is all about?

To me, that is the ultimate failing of eternal torment.  It is far too coersive to have anything to do with either free-will or love except as a cruel caricature.

 

[Rize]

Today at 08:52 PM EveOfGrace said this in Post #72

Armothe, Rize said he didnt mind if this discussion gets off topic since he started it, hehe, so i want to ask you something about what you just posted.

This was rather interesting: Ok, i am with you on the first part, the bible does say Jesus went to Hades and preached to them before He came back out of His tomb. He really is righteous and fair.  But i dont understand the part about Hades not existing anymore.  Where do the dead non believers go now?  And if Death and Hades is thrown into the lake of fire, where is Hades presently?

EveOfGrace

 

Just fast forward through all of Revelation and you have preterism in a nutshell.  That means that Hades is already in the Lake of Fire (where I assume that it will be/was annihilated).  As to how preterists can fast-forward through all of Revelation, it would be good to look elsewhere for that one.  Perhaps Armothe can provide a good link.

 

[EveOfGrace]

The more difficult question is, is it any more possible to truly choose to love God on earth while truly believing in eternal torment?

That is a good question Rize. And for once, i am not answerring. You actually have made me speechless. And yes, you may thank God for that if you like.

 

[Rize]

Well, your reaction has made me (nearly) speechless in return

I think the key is to realize that we're talking about possibilities and not absolutes.  We spent a lot of time arguing as if our positions were absolutely true.  One of them certainly is more true than the others, but it's not a good idea for us to argue as if we absolutely know which one it is.

And again, if you someday realize that eternal torment isn't really a tenable position, then there's always annihilationism.  I still consider that a decent possibility, even if I am leaning heavily towards universalism right now.

[edit]

I may be absent until tomorrow morning.  I finally have a job interview scheduled. (yay!)  After 2.5 months of looking, I stumble upon three openings with good potential to hire me.  All within a few days of one another.  So I have to prepare for the interview by doing some studying (since I can't lie like most people would  ).

 

[Rize]

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/QuestionsWithoutAnswers.html

213 questions without answers.  Though I'm sure some would answer some of them.

Some of the questions are designed for certain types of Christian (calvinists for example) of which you are not, so not all will be relevant.  It's an interesting series to contemplate though.

 

[Rize]

82 Is really good

We know that God desires that all be saved.  So in question 82 Hanson asks:

If the scriptures testified that God desires that all men be sent to Hell for forever, could we safely infer that some people would be saved?

The obvious parallel is that if God desires that all be saved, could we safely infer that only some will be?

 

[armothe]

Today at 04:16 AM Rize said this in Post #74 
That's why I consider the possibility of a different system (so to speak) of salvation for those in the LoF.  It's possible that they may exit the LoF no more saved than when they went in and then do God knows what (literally) before being saved.

You see, now we are getting into speculation on the nature of the afterlife. A different plan of Salvation? I suppose anything is possible, but I'll just stick with what the Bible says regarding the Second Death and put my personal feelings aside.

-A