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I find it funny

Awesomegirl

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I find it funny how when I explain my reasoning for being agnostic is because I believe matters such as the existence of a god and the origin of our universe are beyond human comprehension and unknowable people tell me that the answer is simple and that God created everything. Well the funny thing is when I ask them questions like who created God or if god is infinite what was he doing before the universe was created I get the answer "well god is beyond human comprehension. Well that's is exactly what i believe but I take it a step further and say the existence of the supernatural is unknowable. Some people can admit to uncertainty in some aspects but if you cross into their no fly zone you get treated like an evil person. It's like they hate it when people challenge their beliefs. I don't understand why my beliefs about the universe, or lack thereof, makes it just for people to threaten me with an infinite torture. I didn't grow up in knowing this kind of cruelty but it makes me sad that people would even think about such a horrid idea.
 

Awesomegirl

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well there are lots of questions that conjure the reply of "God is beyond human comprehension" answer. One being who created God? How does God know everything but still give us free will, what is god made out of? Does God have emotions, if so how does he remain pure and all good if he displays negative emotions such as jealousy? (which he does in the bible). I mean there is just as much possibility that the universe had natural origins. While I wont completely rule out the possibility of a higher power or deity I will stand firm in my belief that it is unknowable.
 
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wnwall

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who created God?

God has always existed. Creatures need a creator, God doesn't. A creature is something that begins to exist at a particular time and has been created, thus the need for a creator. God is eternal. He never came into existence at a particular time, he simply is.

How does God know everything but still give us free will
No where in the Bible will you find that God gave us libertarian free will. We have wills, but they are not self-determining. Both the Bible and experience can tell us that.

what is god made out of?
Again, God is not a creature, he was not made out of anything.

Does God have emotions,
Yes, and he had them even before creation in the infinite and overflowing delight he had in his Son from all eternity.

if so how does he remain pure and all good if he displays negative emotions such as jealousy?
For God to be jealous is for God to be loving. When we desire to be praised, it's not loving, it's vain, because we are not where men can find their greatest joy. Men can find the greatest joy in God, so for God to desire men's praise and to be jealous when we praise idols, is loving. Please see John Piper's letter to Michael Prowse for more on this.
[T]he only incentive that Prowse can think of for God to demand praise from us is that he has need - a defect. But what if we have the need, and the need is to see infinite beauty and enjoy it so much that is spills over in authentic praise. What if admiration really is the highest pleasure and God is the most admirable being in the universe? If that were the case, wouldn't God's demand that we praise him be a demand for our maximum joy. And do we not call that love? (Everlasting Truth for the Joy of All Peoples)
I mean there is just as much possibility that the universe had natural origins. While I wont completely rule out the possibility of a higher power or deity I will stand firm in my belief that it is unknowable.
If there was a creator, are you saying it is impossible for him to interact with his created world? Or simply that he hasn't interacted with his creation? Because if he has interacted with his creation, then it is certainly knowable.
 
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C

ContentInHim

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I find it funny how when I explain my reasoning for being agnostic is because I believe matters such as the existence of a god and the origin of our universe are beyond human comprehension and unknowable people tell me that the answer is simple and that God created everything. Well the funny thing is when I ask them questions like who created God or if god is infinite what was he doing before the universe was created I get the answer "well god is beyond human comprehension. Well that's is exactly what i believe but I take it a step further and say the existence of the supernatural is unknowable. Some people can admit to uncertainty in some aspects but if you cross into their no fly zone you get treated like an evil person. It's like they hate it when people challenge their beliefs. I don't understand why my beliefs about the universe, or lack thereof, makes it just for people to threaten me with an infinite torture. I didn't grow up in knowing this kind of cruelty but it makes me sad that people would even think about such a horrid idea.
Actually, God says in scripture that he's left evidence of his existance even in nature. You may be requiring more evidence than God thinks is necessary to believe.

I saw an interesting statement last week. "Hell frightens those who don't believe in it!" Hmmm....
 
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ebia

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well there are lots of questions that conjure the reply of "God is beyond human comprehension" answer. One being who created God?
God is not created. He always has been.

How does God know everything but still give us free will,
Concepts like free-will make sense when viewed within time, but not much sense when viewed outside of time.


what is god made out of?
He's not made out of anything, he just is.

Does God have emotions,
Apparently so.

if so how does he remain pure and all good if he displays negative emotions such as jealousy? (which he does in the bible).
The bible is an attempt to describe God within the limitations of human language and experience.


I mean there is just as much possibility that the universe had natural origins. While I wont completely rule out the possibility of a higher power or deity I will stand firm in my belief that it is unknowable.
It would be if God hadn't chosen to reveal it; if we were dealing with the aloof, deist, vision of God that's been so common for the last couple of hundred years. But we aren't - the Judeo-Christian vision of God is of a God who is constantly present in his creation, sustaining it and making himself known.
 
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Digit

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I don't understand, you say it doesn't make sense, and that it's unknowable, yet we have a book that tells us all about it, we have evidence in nature, creation the human body, relationships and all of these things that backup what is said in scripture. I've made the jump from one to the other. There are some things in the Bible that are quite unbelieveable, and others that are not. If the Bible speaks truth about the lessers, then perhaps it speaks truth about the greaters too? It seems too many non-Christians start at the wrong end. By and large, creation, the why and how and so forth, is totally unimportant. God doesn't care about it. When we stand before God (for the sake of argument, lets just assume He exists here) He isn't going to give us a quiz on how He created, why, and our thoughts on who created God. He doesn't care, He cares about our character, which is what the Bible talks about and the two greatest commandments are about loving God and loving your neighbour. Not, "Thou shalt have a great command of theology, apologetics and debate skills."

Understand what I am saying here?

Cheers,
Digit
 
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tapero

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well there are lots of questions that conjure the reply of "God is beyond human comprehension" answer. One being who created God? How does God know everything but still give us free will, what is god made out of? Does God have emotions, if so how does he remain pure and all good if he displays negative emotions such as jealousy? (which he does in the bible). I mean there is just as much possibility that the universe had natural origins. While I wont completely rule out the possibility of a higher power or deity I will stand firm in my belief that it is unknowable.

Hi,

No one created God, He always existed and always will. He is.

He gave us free will because he desred to, and I am so thankful for such. Free will so you can believe or not believe and also free to do whatever you like to.

If we didn't have free will or if he made some born to go to heaven and some born to go to hell, then well, you can see, not good, and God would never do such a thing.

Also, if we didn't have free will would make God responsible when we sin and we all sin. And no way, God does not say to a rapist, yes, rape this baby, it's my will for you to do so..

No..we sin cause we wish to, and as to spiriutal wickedness, they also have free will, tho we see satan was told in one place not to touch a mans life..only place it's said, so satan may be somewhat restrained, however, we don't know, unless i'm forgetting other scriptures.

He will be restrained in the future, will be locked in the abyss for a time, and I guess I do think he is somewhat restrained now, but can't think of a scripture to support such.

He also gave the angels free will and satan and some angels now called demons sinned against God.

Satan does not make us do bad things. satan and demons do evil and we do not know how except what we see in the bible. We sin cause we desire to, as we have free will to choose right or wrong.

God wants all to come to know Him, plainly stated in the bible, no matter what anyone says about free will.

So you have the free will to believe what you believe, no one coerces you into anything, God would never force anyone to love him and never will. He will never force anyone to believe in him, yet some believers do believe they had no choice but to believe and others have no choice but to not believe. Not true of course.

What is God made of? Well, often said Spirit, which of course we don't see. However in OT is a portion about Him letting Moses see his glory and in this Moses saw his back. I used to believe this was the Father, but now believe it was Jesus (preincarnate) as Jesus was in the Old Testament manifested several times, but of course not with the name Jesus (no names mentioned) and not revealed as Jesus.

So if the Father is Spirit, there are many different symbolic portrayals of his presence, which are probably not him himself, but what was surrounding his presence. Pillar of fire, clouds, etc.

Jesus is fully man and fully God. I believe Jesus will always have a body such as believers will always have a body. I don't think Jesus is a spiritual being as the Father is, but most likely of course could be if so desired to.

Of Jesus's appearance John says in revelation..Jesus looked to him as a lamb that had been slain.

When Stephen was stoned in acts, he looked up before he passed, and saw Jesus at the right hand of the Father. So, Stephen saw Father and Son. So, both were seeable by Stephen and Stephen knew it was Father and Jesus.

the Holy Spirit, of course Spirit.

The Holy Spirit indwells us when we believe, and we are sealed in Him, a mark, guaranteeing our redemption (salvation.) So God lives in all Christians, and all our sins are forgiven immediately upon belief as this occurs on belief.

Father Son, Spirit, one God.

Yes, God has many emotions and is evident throughout scripture. Jealousy is not a sin. If it were, it would not be a character of God. Man's jealousy is good, when used for right purposes.

Jealous over wife who seems to get close to another man. Good human emotion. He can speak to his wife, and say I feel jealous, and the wife can say, I see how, and I will stop this.. But if in his jealousy he kills his wife or man, he has sinned.

All sin is sin against God. wrongdoing. God can not sin against himself, as all sin is sinning against God.

He remains pure because he is pure, good, fair, just, righteous, Holy. He can not be different. He does no evil, yet many attribute evil to God.

I wouldn't worry about the universe. Really not necessary at all as pertains to faith. I myself do believe God created the world and all that is in our universe and anything anywhere, but it is not important to believe such as pertains to having faith in God. Some Christians do believe that God created all and some think it occured via evolution.

God is knowable for he says, if you seek me with all your heart you will find me. So God is knowable..

We as Christians learn more everyday about him as we walk. Many times we stop the learning process by not reading or such, but the more we know of him, by reading, the more we know him, just as with any relationship.

A Christian knows God, but the degrees for us all vary. Some more then less, some less than more, all depends on our walk with God.

Salvation comes thru belief in Christ, that he died for our sins and was resurrected. Nothing more saves us than belief in Christ, and many don't even have that knowledge and believe in him and later learn, that is if they have a bible, many in persecuted lands don't, but have heard about Jesus and hence believe.

If God is calling you, if you sense such; ask Him to help you to believe in him. The bible says faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word. So listening to people talk about God, reading the bible, sermons etc, is how we can have faith and grow in faith, however I had little of either when I came to Christ. We all come differntly.

As to what Christians say of God or non Chrisitans be aware there is much mistruth spoken of about God and about the bible.

Good to ask if such is truth or not. While Christians all believe different things, meaning different beliefs about God,the bible, Christ, salvation, etc., what I am saying is there is much error taught, which makes a non chrisitan (if believed) think the wrong thing about God.

Which is why it's good to ask questions.

Here's a typical example, but not about God but about the bible.

Commonly said: Money is evil

Not true.

bible says:
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.

just one that pops to mind..there are many such...and is normal, as people hear things and think such is true of what the bible says, when it's not, same occurs as to when people speak of God.. So good to know for oneself, the facts..and questions help root things out.
Thanks for the questions,

God bless
tapero
 
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Awesomegirl

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ha ha, ok so the answer he just is the most uncertain answer I've ever heard in my life, that is illogical as it absurd. Jealousy is not a good emotion as I have seen the harm it can produce. Also jealousy isnt the worst act that the biblical god condones. Murder, rape, war, and many others are found frequently in the old testament. The human body is more of a testament to millions of years of evolution. Don't use circular logic, bible doesn't prove the validity of the bible. Digit I understand completely what you are saying, and it would work if not believing in an unknown got the person a one way ticket to hell. The bible isn't the only holy book out there with moral lessons in it or the idea of a savior isn't new. Look at Buddhism for example Buddha was said to supposedly bring peace to this world but that didn't happen. Also ContenteInHim, I don't fear hell because it is a sick idea and any God that feels that it is just would make me more afraid of that cruel dictator. I would gladly stand up for what is right and jump in the fire because if you have a bare understanding of justice you will know that an infinite one size fits all punishment is totally unjust for finite acts on earth. At least I would have a clear consciousness as I do now while standing up against the theology. One last thing don't mix up the natural universe with the supernatural it is very foolish to start handing simple easy answers like a spoon fed child when scientist are working hard to uncover the true natural causes to such matters. If you don't believe there are natural answers being uncovered go read some Stephen Hawkins or Richard Dawkins, Charles Darwin's "Origin of Species" is good to, or simple keep up to date on the scientific breakthroughs and daily scientific news.
 
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Awesomegirl

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so if he is then logically then God must be everything. Every particle, ever atom must be him in some form. If everything came from him it must also be part of him. Just as matter can not be created nor destroyed, it can change its' form. Also everyone keeps debunking the idea of free will, well I can tell you right now I can start dancing around my room like a monkey and it was 100% my idea, no one planted it in me. I also have never felt lead in any way towards a religion nor have I felt evil or depressed being agnostic.
 
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tapero

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ha ha, ok so the answer he just is the most uncertain answer I've ever heard in my life, that is illogical as it absurd. Jealousy is not a good emotion as I have seen the harm it can produce. Also jealousy isnt the worst act that the biblical god condones. Murder, rape, war, and many others are found frequently in the old testament. The human body is more of a testament to millions of years of evolution. Don't use circular logic, bible doesn't prove the validity of the bible. Digit I understand completely what you are saying, and it would work if not believing in an unknown got the person a one way ticket to hell. The bible isn't the only holy book out there with moral lessons in it or the idea of a savior isn't new. Look at Buddhism for example Buddha was said to supposedly bring peace to this world but that didn't happen. Also ContenteInHim, I don't fear hell because it is a sick idea and any God that feels that it is just would make me more afraid of that cruel dictator. I would gladly stand up for what is right and jump in the fire because if you have a bare understanding of justice you will know that an infinite one size fits all punishment is totally unjust for finite acts on earth. At least I would have a clear consciousness as I do now while standing up against the theology. One last thing don't mix up the natural universe with the supernatural it is very foolish to start handing simple easy answers like a spoon fed child when scientist are working hard to uncover the true natural causes to such matters. If you don't believe there are natural answers being uncovered go read some Stephen Hawkins or Richard Dawkins, Charles Darwin's "Origin of Species" is good to, or simple keep up to date on the scientific breakthroughs and daily scientific news.

Hi, as to jealousy, if you noticed, we're not to sin in our jealousy.. Jealousy can kill gave example, husband could kill over jealousy, jealousy in sibling rivalry etc. But jealousy protects also.

God protects us..

God said to the chosen, the Israelites:

Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God

Why? because there is no other god. As you read the old testament you read of other little g gods, called created, as there is no such thing as other gods.

So, God is protecting His people in this command. Keeping them from doing detestable things and some sacrificed their babies to little g gods, etc. False gods lead people away from the one true God, which causes much heartache, and suffering.

It is joy to know God and be known by God.

Still happens to this day. People worship man made gods, and sadly not God.

anyway as to jealousy;
It's sinning in jealousy that is bad.

and if someone struggles with jealousy as many of us do, due to experiences, then it's an insecurity and can wreak havoc on relationships, ruin them, but in a good marriage, can say hon, i'm feeling jealous and spouse if good spouse says okay, i'm gonna work so you don't feel jealous or not do anything to make you jealous, or help you so you dont' feel jealous.

But jealousy of course can lead to bad things, murder, stealing (out of envy for what others have), abuse, etc.

See, even anger isn't a sin, but sinning in anger is.

God says in your anger do not sin.

So, there are emotions that may seem bad, but there's good reason for them.

blessings,
tapero
hope that helps explain it more
 
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Digit

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When I die I look forward to being revealed what is the truth in the matter. If I do not exist than that is ok, there is no pain in that.
Seems like an odd position to have. If you die and there is no God, then great. If there is, that's rather bad for you. The revelation of that knowledge that there is a God will be a real kicker. If a Christian dies and is found to be mistaken his entire life, what happens? Nothing. But if we are right, then we inherit eternal life.

For someone who professes logic, you seem not to practice what you preach.

Cheers,
Digit
 
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Digit

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so if he is then logically then God must be everything.
I have no idea what you are saying here.

Every particle, ever atom must be him in some form.
Why?

If everything came from him it must also be part of him.
Why?

Just as matter can not be created nor destroyed, it can change its' form.
You are using the physical to try and justify the spiritual. Do cats teach dogs how to bark?

Also everyone keeps debunking the idea of free will, well I can tell you right now I can start dancing around my room like a monkey and it was 100% my idea, no one planted it in me.
That seems to support the position of free will, rather than debunk it. Odd.

I also have never felt lead in any way towards a religion nor have I felt evil or depressed being agnostic.
Does the Bible say that you will be depressed and evil if you don't have God in you life, or does it say that we are able to sear our conscience against direction by the Holy Spirit, that means, you can convince yourself what you wish to believe, given time and will power. People do it everyday, abortion is ok, murder in certain situations is ok, lying is ok, but only if good will come from it etc etc. I bet Hitler didn't feel evil doing what he did either...

Cheers,
Digit
 
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Awesomegirl

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ha ha the old pascals theory attempt, too bad that can be applied to every religion known to man, what if your wrong about Islam? they see christians as idolaters for worshiping a man. They believe you will go to hell. No my vision of god, if there is one is a just and fair one unlike the christian idea.
 
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Awesomegirl

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yes it makes perfect sense, if god is omniscient and is the source of all then what he creates must be made of his substance because he is the only thing around, unless you believe that matter had no earlier form which is illogical. No I am not mixing the two I am using one as an example for the other, no where did I say the two must mix together. YES! it does support free will thank you for supporting my claim unlike the other christians on here. Also shouldn't god if he wants us to believe in him in some way reveal himself to me, I've never felt lead to him at all. Anyways you should seriously study Buddhism because it is nearly identical to Christianity in its savior archetype and its teachings. It came 500 years before Christianity too so don't try and act like Christianity is the only religion saying this stuff.
 
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Digit

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ha ha the old pascals theory attempt, too bad that can be applied to every religion known to man, what if your wrong about Islam? they see christians as idolaters for worshiping a man. They believe you will go to hell. No my vision of god, if there is one is a just and fair one unlike the christian idea.
It doesn't matter, the problem is that I've made a choice. Whereas you have not. The fact that you can apply the same logic to other religions is a good proof on why it works.

I'm not saying become a Christian, because if you don't you're screwed. I'm saying stop sitting on the fence and shrugging and pretending it doesn't matter. Look into Christian, Buddism, Islam etc.

Cheers,
Digit
 
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Awesomegirl

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also digit are you implying that I should simply believe in a religion out of fear, love me or burn. That is what it sounds like. Sounds like Nazi treatment to the Jews, be like us or burn, not much different eh?


For someone who professes a loving and just religion you sure don't seem to practice what you preach. See I can hit below the belt too.
 
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