I don't know if I can be friends with "real" christians

[seeking Christ]

It has been my experience and the Bible seems to support it.

There is nothing and I mean NOTHING like unburdening your conscience at the Cross! Not the easiest thing to do when coming from a point of unbelief, but believe me EVERY Christian has done this, (probably repeatedly) and we'll all tell you the same thing; ITS WORTH IT!!!

 

[WilbertK]

Normally you are presented here as being totally quiet about your faith, such that it is rude to even just bring it up. Not at all like this side of the pond! but I do agree, being constantly annoying does no good. A Saint once said preach the Gospel at all times, and when necessary use words.

I don't think it's seen as rude here if you bring up your faith. But people may feel awkward if you project your faith onto others. I think that if non-believers don't know you, the statement "God will help you" will make most of them feel much more uncomfortable than the statement "God helped me".

It has been my experience and the Bible seems to support it.

What I meant is: do you think that I will have the same experience, or do you think that that may vary from person to person?

There is nothing and I mean NOTHING like unburdening your conscience at the Cross! Not the easiest thing to do when coming from a point of unbelief, but believe me EVERY Christian has done this, (probably repeatedly) and we'll all tell you the same thing; ITS WORTH IT!!!

Well, I've been in retreat two times, and I've been to a small service on friday night, especially meant for that. Everyone was sitting and praying literally around the cross. (The cross was lying on the ground.) The experiences I had while being there have been very valuable to me. I've seen people find a lot of strength in their faith. And that has made me understand the position of believers much better. It also taught me how to find the same strength in myself. I think that you can unburden your conscience just the same if you meditate on your actions, and start taking responsibility in a way that you see fit when you take the time to reflect on everything.

 

[Maximillia]

Hello there,

Many of my Christian friends went through the same process as the one you are taking.
Then one day out of the blue, he reveals himself to you, this moment changes who you are, it's worth the seeking, probing, hoping, praying, in fact it's worth dying for.
Many blessings to you.

 

[WilbertK]

Hello there,

Many of my Christian friends went through the same process as the one you are taking.
Then one day out of the blue, he reveals himself to you, this moment changes who you are, it's worth the seeking, probing, hoping, praying, in fact it's worth dying for.
Many blessings to you.

You probably don't mean to be insulting, but I think this is a perfect example of the sort of statement that will make a lot of non-believers feel very awkward. I've sincerely looked into christianity, and that has only strengthened my conviction that it is likely that there's a natural explanation for everything. For you to take this and conclude that I will somehow see the light, is something that a lot of people in Europe will find very condescending. It basically amounts to a belittling "he'll come to his senses eventually...".

Now I don't mean to tell you you're insulting, condescending and belittling. I don't think you mean to be, and I'm not easily offended. But I think you ought to be aware that you may be perceived this way, and that that will probably not help the discourse if you're trying to find common ground.

 

[Maximillia]

Wilbert,

I don't mean to be condescending because I am not.
I'm actually exited about this for you that's all. There must be a part of you that wants to be on a Christian forum no?
I will respectfully withdraw for now.
By the way, I am European and lived in Europe for 27 years.

 

[WilbertK]

I don't mean to chase you away. Not at all. But user "seeking Christ" talked about Europeans thinking it's rude to bring up faith. I just think your post is a good example of what some people may find awkward to hear if they don't know you and you say this sort of thing out of the blue. I understand that I'm on a christian forum, and that you don't mean me harm. I take no offense at all to your comment. I appreciate the excitement that you feel. Please don't be offended yourself.

And yes, I want to be on a christian forum. But not because I feel like I haven't studied it enough, or because I think that there's something to it that I need to find. Mostly I am here to try to find common ground, because I think that usually christians and atheists just copy-paste the same arguments over and over without listening to each other. I think the world would be a much better place if we stopped to listen to each other every once in a while.

 

[Maximillia]

Not only do I understand your 'argument' I have lived it; only difference that I can see so far is that I was not as courteous as you are. Naturally I am not suggesting that humans are not highly individualistic since we are.
You didn't chase me away and you did not offend me in the least, feel free to express yourself without reservation since it allows for truth.
I like your brain, you appear transparent to me and that's a quality that I personally admire. You know good ol honesty.
Listen, I am still very exited for you and wish you the best.

 

[WilbertK]

I am still very exited for you and wish you the best.

Appreciated. And I wish the best for you as well.

 

[bling]

What I meant is: do you think that I will have the same experience, or do you think that that may vary from person to person?

Well, I've been in retreat two times, and I've been to a small service on friday night, especially meant for that. Everyone was sitting and praying literally around the cross. (The cross was lying on the ground.) The experiences I had while being there have been very valuable to me. I've seen people find a lot of strength in their faith. And that has made me understand the position of believers much better. It also taught me how to find the same strength in myself. I think that you can unburden your conscience just the same if you meditate on your actions, and start taking responsibility in a way that you see fit when you take the time to reflect on everything.

Excellent question.

It is different for everyone and I can give you examples of extremes. You can follow the same 12 step program used by AA (alcoholics anonymous) on sin and even as an atheist it helps. Maybe our Church meets ought to be more like AA meetings and we could share the same results (that seems to be more the way the first century Christians used their meetings).

The big difference I have seen between the true Christians and other religious groups (some being “Christian”) is taking our past sins (hopefully all before becoming a Christian) and using them as assets, because they become part of our witness story of the way we were and the contrast to the what Jesus has done with our lives.

I taught Sunday Bible Classes at the prison and when there was a true “conversion”, they had huge changes in their life. The day they were baptized was: the day they gave up all their weapons, the day they were kicked out of their gang, the day the gang took everything they owned, the first day of being beaten by other gangs taking payback, and the day they virtually had to stop sinning because all the snoops were watching them to see if they showed any weakness (lack of commitment to their new loyalty so they could be seen as being a candidate for slavery). They had huge burdens they wanted removed and were willing to literally die to have them removed and it worked for them.

 

[WilbertK]

The big difference I have seen between the true Christians and other religious groups (some being “Christian”) is taking our past sins (hopefully all before becoming a Christian) and using them as assets, because they become part of our witness story of the way we were and the contrast to the what Jesus has done with our lives.

That's the the part about christianity that I find hardest to swallow. People can commit murders and everything, and then all of a sudden act all sanctimonious because they found jesus. It seems to me that in some of these cases becoming a christian lets people get away with not taking responsibility for their actions. "Jesus died for my sins, so it doesn't matter what I did, I'm saved now." It's everybody's right to believe in whatever they want to believe. And I think it's awesome that people decide to leave their gang when they join a religious community, but I think that first and foremost, people should seek to make amends with the people that they've wronged.

And AA helps for atheists? How can an atheist even really join such a program? You have to admit to believing in God. So... I don't quite follow.

 

[seeking Christ]

I've seen people find a lot of strength in their faith. And that has made me understand the position of believers much better. It also taught me how to find the same strength in myself. I think that you can unburden your conscience just the same if you meditate on your actions, and start taking responsibility in a way that you see fit when you take the time to reflect on everything.

I say that this is not distinct at all from Christianity. What does Jesus mean when He says "the Kingdom is within you?"

 

[seeking Christ]

Mostly I am here to try to find common ground, because I think that usually christians and atheists just copy-paste the same arguments over and over without listening to each other. I think the world would be a much better place if we stopped to listen to each other every once in a while.

This post made my day. Thank you!

 

[WilbertK]

I say that this is not distinct at all from Christianity. What does Jesus mean when He says "the Kingdom is within you?"

I guess you're gonna tell me that I can find the selfless love of God inside of me. Am I right?

This post made my day. Thank you!

You're welcome.

 

[seeking Christ]

I guess you're gonna tell me that I can find the selfless love of God inside of me. Am I right?

I'm not sure. The way I look at it, the interaction point of the spirit world with the physical, is our species. I won't go so far as to say that every thought and impulse we experience has an external spiritual origin, but sometimes it seems like maybe. The big thing is to know when it is God interacting with us, or at the very least to know which things are worth pursuing. (Personally, I find religion is usually distinct from all of that)

 

[aiki]

That being said, I sometimes actively seek out discussion with christians (and other believers too), and when I do, the following often crosses my mind.
If you do believe in a literal hell, and you believe that because I'm an atheist I will spend eternity there (which is what I mean by being a "real" christian), you can do one of two things:
1) Not bother to try to save me
If you would choose this option, I would have to doubt whether you're actually my friend. If you do actually believe I'm going to be tortured for eternity, and you're actually my friend, wouldn't you constantly be begging me to come to my senses?

Not constantly, no. I would make a point of having a discussion with you about your eternal jeopardy, but if it became clear you were opposed to what I was telling you, I would leave it to you to broach the topic in the future. I would also pray that God would soften your heart to His truth and convict you of your sin and need of a Saviour. In fact, praying for you would be far more important than anything I might say to you directly about hell and salvation. God has clearly reserved the saving of people for Himself. He doesn't need me shoving my beliefs down people's throats in order to save them. However, He has commanded me to speak out about the jeopardy of hell, so I must give some warning about it to those around me - even if it may offend.

2) Constantly be trying to save me
Which would be, to put it mildly, annoying. At least after a while.

But, you see, God is the One who saves. He may use His children to share the truth about hell with others, but the turning of a hell-bent sinner to salvation is solely God's job. In light of this fact, it is more important to be praying that God would save you than to be badgering you with the prospect of your eternal doom.

Both options would prevent us from becoming (good) friends, I think.

The truth often does this. In fact, this was what Christ was talking about when he said,

Matthew 10:32-39
32 "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven.
33 But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven.
34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword.
35 For I have come to 'set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law';
36 and 'a man's enemies will be those of his own household.'
37 He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for My sake will find it.

Many of those whom I call brothers and sisters in Christ have found themselves forsaken by family and friends as a result of their Christian faith. Christianity is an exclusivistic religion in that it holds to an absolute view of truth and morality. It is surprising how quickly such a view makes those who champion tolerance very seriously intolerant of Christianity! But this is exactly what Christ warned would be the experience of his followers.

Now, as I said, in practice, I haven't experienced any problems with this. Because just about every christian I meet will tell me they believe that if I'm living a good life, I will still go to heaven, or something along these lines. This makes it a non-issue.

Sure. But it's not true. That is, "living a good life" will not get you into heaven. Salvation is solely through a genuine faith in Christ as one's Saviour and sincere submission to him as Lord.

But I've often wondered what would happen if a good friend of mine was to actually believe I would go to hell. I don't know if I could be friends with them anymore, because of the reason described above. Does that make me a bigot?

A bigot? Perhaps somewhat. No more than the average person is, I think.

Please tell me what you think.

See above.

Selah.

 

[bling]

That's the the part about christianity that I find hardest to swallow. People can commit murders and everything, and then all of a sudden act all sanctimonious because they found jesus. It seems to me that in some of these cases becoming a christian lets people get away with not taking responsibility for their actions. "Jesus died for my sins, so it doesn't matter what I did, I'm saved now." It's everybody's right to believe in whatever they want to believe. And I think it's awesome that people decide to leave their gang when they join a religious community, but I think that first and foremost, people should seek to make amends with the people that they've wronged.

The Apostle Paul is our example, Paul prior to becoming a Christian; actively (full time for a while) tortured and murdered Christians. The true Christians in prison I knew did not feel “good” about what they had done, but only felt good about what Christ had done for them. I learned a whole lot more from them then I taught them and one was to realize how little I had really changed, how little concern I had for sin, and the power that was available to me.

Yes, some of these true Christian prisoners had done some tragic stuff they could not amend (like murder), but my sins were just as bad yet more socially acceptable (we always think the sins of others are much worse than ours).

Christianity is not so much concerned with trying to redo the past (that is just not possible), but is concerned with what you can now do for a better future. We just cannot always serve those we hurt in the past, but there are lots of opportunities around us to service.

And AA helps for atheists? How can an atheist even really join such a program? You have to admit to believing in God. So... I don't quite follow.

You really need to contact AA about this I just know they do have chapters for atheists and it does ‘work” to some degree for them.

 

[Harry3142]

WilbertK-

Do you believe that it's our responsibility to alleviate suffering? Do you believe that we are to do what we can to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and provide medicine for those who are ill? Jesus' firmest command wasn't that we 'bow the knee' to him, even though we Christians see him as worthy of it. Instead, his firmest command, found in Matthew 25:31-46, was for us to roll up our sleeves and go to work alleviating the suffering of others.

BTW: Mark 16:9-20, where evangelicals find the admonition that those who do not believe in Christ are to be condemned, wasn't added to that gospel until about 400 years after it was originally written. Mark actually ends at Mark 16:8.

 

[artqween]

Hi there,

I want to start off with a couple of asides. I do have friends who call themselves christians. I don't want to let my philosophical ponderings ruin friendships. Also, I live in a country (the Netherlands) where most people don't actively practice religion. So in a lot of cases I don't even know if people are religious. It just doesn't come up.

That being said, I sometimes actively seek out discussion with christians (and other believers too), and when I do, the following often crosses my mind.
If you do believe in a literal hell, and you believe that because I'm an atheist I will spend eternity there (which is what I mean by being a "real" christian), you can do one of two things:
1) Not bother to try to save me
If you would choose this option, I would have to doubt whether you're actually my friend. If you do actually believe I'm going to be tortured for eternity, and you're actually my friend, wouldn't you constantly be begging me to come to my senses?
2) Constantly be trying to save me
Which would be, to put it mildly, annoying. At least after a while.

Both options would prevent us from becoming (good) friends, I think. Now, as I said, in practice, I haven't experienced any problems with this. Because just about every christian I meet will tell me they believe that if I'm living a good life, I will still go to heaven, or something along these lines. This makes it a non-issue. But I've often wondered what would happen if a good friend of mine was to actually believe I would go to hell. I don't know if I could be friends with them anymore, because of the reason described above. Does that make me a bigot?

Please tell me what you think.

Regards,

Wilbert

A true christain friend in my opinion. Is friendly, and doesnt push Gods
Theory on anyone. they r compassionate people. They may
Suggest here and there. But that's
About it. they also think positive.
I hope ur christian friends bring out
Ur inner beauty, if they dont..
They arent ur friends.. Get away from them immediately.
Report them.
Smiles to allllllll.....

 

[WilbertK]

Not constantly, no. I would make a point of having a discussion with you about your eternal jeopardy, but if it became clear you were opposed to what I was telling you, I would leave it to you to broach the topic in the future.

I thank you very much for your in-depth response. I don't really know what to say other then the things I've already said in this thread, and I don't really want to keep repeating myself, unless you want me to. I really appreciate all responses, and it helps me better understand the christian perspective. Thanks for that.

Yes, some of these true Christian prisoners had done some tragic stuff they could not amend (like murder), but my sins were just as bad yet more socially acceptable (we always think the sins of others are much worse than ours).

Of course I don't know your sins. But I think in general christianity makes people feel that they're sinful, even though that's not always the case. To make a mistake every now and then isn't evil. That's human. I sincerely doubt that your sins are as bad as murder.

Do you believe that it's our responsibility to alleviate suffering? Do you believe that we are to do what we can to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and provide medicine for those who are ill?

I think that we, as humans, all benefit from the society that we've created in the last couple thousands of years. I think it's unacceptable for someone to reap the benefits of that without contributing to its progress. That means helping out your fellow man (or woman).

I hope ur christian friends bring out
Ur inner beauty, if they dont..
They arent ur friends.. Get away from them immediately.

I hope it's clear to everybody that I'm not experiencing any difficulty in relationships I have with people who identify as christians. The problem I've tried to describe in this thread is (at least for the time being) a hypothetical one.

Thanks again for your kind responses everybody.

 

[bling]

Of course I don't know your sins. But I think in general christianity makes people feel that they're sinful, even though that's not always the case. To make a mistake every now and then isn't evil. That's human. I sincerely doubt that your sins are as bad as murder.

This takes a mature understanding of Christianity:

I know my sins, so you do not have to. If you want to blame all the manmade tragedies in this world over the last 10 years on me personally that might equal my sins. The reason this world is in the big mess it is in is because I have not allowed the indwelling Holy Spirit to cease the opportunities in front of me. Christ established a very simple inexpensive way for Christians to evangelize the world to give every individual a wonderful opportunity to meet and spent individual time with Christ. You along with everyone else in this world need to see/experience Christ in your presence one on one so you can talk with him (that is the way it works). Christ lives in and through true Christians, mentoring a small group of believers (4-12). If out of the small group just one per year becomes a similar mentor allowing Christ to mentor others through him to the point of having his own small group in 34 years you run out of people on earth to be in small groups (all 7 billion+). So that is what I have kept from happening, by being selfish.