I don't know if I can be friends with "real" christians

[Spunkn]

Well. In a way you become a new creation when you accept Christ. You become a child of God. You are no longer held bound by sin, but through Christ we have the power to say no to it.

So in a sense, as Christians we are already "different personalities" if you want to call it that. I still have the same personality I did before I was saved. Or at least I think I do...but yet it has also changed. My reasons for doing things have changed. My purpose of being on earth has changed. My goal in life has changed. But I'm still the same me. It's something supernatural.

 

[WilbertK]

Well. In a way you become a new creation when you accept Christ. You become a child of God. You are no longer held bound by sin, but through Christ we have the power to say no to it.

So in a sense, as Christians we are already "different personalities" if you want to call it that. I still have the same personality I did before I was saved. Or at least I think I do...but yet it has also changed. My reasons for doing things have changed. My purpose of being on earth has changed. My goal in life has changed. But I'm still the same me. It's something supernatural.

I think that's coherent. But I wonder what that would imply. Imagine a husband and wife in heaven that had an atheist child on earth. I think that most people would expect to meet their spouse in heaven. And I think that means that the husband and wife would have to remember that they loved each other on earth. That would seem to me to mean that they would have to remember their life, and therefore their son. If they wouldn't remember their son, I don't see how they can understand that they knew each other before they were in heaven. Does that make any sense to you?

 

[Spunkn]

Well, I don't know that marriage is going to be the same in heaven as it is on earth either. I think there will be some differences there.

But ask yourself this. If there is a God. He is all-powerful. All-knowing. Wouldn't He be able to allow you to remember that you had a choice, and yet still block the pain of certain memories and other things? It's almost as if they joy of being with God will block out any suffering that we ever went through. And we will have joy that we chose God.

In a way, you are arguing from a human perspective. God's family is a little different than mankind's family. We think of a husband, a wife, children or whatever. People have said to me personally "Well I don't want to go to heaven if my family isn't going to be there?" But that's defining heaven by your definition. Heaven is going to be full of family for Christians. We are all going to be children of God in His family.

 

[WilbertK]

But ask yourself this. If there is a God. He is all-powerful. All-knowing. Wouldn't He be able to allow you to remember that you had a choice, and yet still block the pain of certain memories and other things? It's almost as if they joy of being with God will block out any suffering that we ever went through. And we will have joy that we chose God.

Please excuse me for asking this question. I don't mean to insult you. I just want to understand your point of view. I can see how for heaven to be perfect you need to forget about the people you knew that were sent to hell. But if that is a comforting thought to you know, doesn't that make you a little selfish? Shouldn't you be as concerned about the souls of other people as you would be if you would remember every single one of them in heaven?

 

[Spunkn]

I dont think it makes me selfish. Everyone is given a choice to accept God's plan for salvation or reject it. As Christians, we should be telling as many people as we can about God's plan of salvation and the Gospel, and often times I fail in doing that because I feel afraid, or nervous that I won't say the right things, or whatever excuse I come up with. -That- is selfish that I put my feelings ahead of trying to save someone from eternal damnation while I am here on earth. But I'm not sure that "being selfish" can be applied to heaven as the way we look at it here on earth.

But no one who goes to hell won't be given a choice. God says that He will not send anyone to hell that was not first given knowledge of Him in some way. Everyone will be held accountable.

There would be no reason for have concern for souls that are in hell, while you are in heaven. They are lost, there is nothing you can do. God has already punished them for rejecting Christ. While that sounds cruel and heartless to someone who is not a Christian, it actually makes sense from a Christian perspective.

For some things to make sense within Christianity, you have to first believe in Christianity itself.

Hopefully that made sense. And no, I'm not offended. I'm more than happy to answer questions regarding my faith and beliefs.

 

[WilbertK]

I dont think it makes me selfish. Everyone is given a choice to accept God's plan for salvation or reject it. As Christians, we should be telling as many people as we can about God's plan of salvation and the Gospel, and often times I fail in doing that because I feel afraid, or nervous that I won't say the right things, or whatever excuse I come up with. -That- is selfish that I put my feelings ahead of trying to save someone from eternal damnation while I am here on earth. But I'm not sure that "being selfish" can be applied to heaven as the way we look at it here on earth.

I meant that that could be said to make you selfish on earth, not necessarily in heaven.

But no one who goes to hell won't be given a choice. God says that He will not send anyone to hell that was not first given knowledge of Him in some way. Everyone will be held accountable.

So you think that there's no possibility of me going to hell without having knowledge of God? Then how do people ever get into hell? Surely if you have knowledge of God you believe in him?

There would be no reason for have concern for souls that are in hell, while you are in heaven. They are lost, there is nothing you can do. God has already punished them for rejecting Christ. While that sounds cruel and heartless to someone who is not a Christian, it actually makes sense from a Christian perspective.

I don't think that that's a cruel view. I think it's practical. I wasn't talking about you being concerned while in heaven. I was talking about you being concerned about your friends' souls while on earth.

For some things to make sense within Christianity, you have to first believe in Christianity itself.

Hopefully that made sense. And no, I'm not offended. I'm more than happy to answer questions regarding my faith and beliefs.

Actually no, I don't think that that last bit makes sense. I think that I can say that a statement makes sense without agreeing with it. I don't see how a statement can ONLY make sense to those who agree with it. Can you give an example of such a thing outside of christianity?

 

[Spunkn]

I have to go for a while tonight, so it might be a bit before the next reply but

Yes I believe there's no possibility of you going to hell without having had the chance to hear about God. You are speaking about Him, so I must therefore conclude that you know about Him.

Satan and demons believe God is real. But they chose to disobey God anyway. Someone may know of God and Jesus Christ, but that doesn't mean they made the choice to accept Him as their savior.

I don't fully understand it all, and perhaps I'm not the best one to exactly explain it. But yes, I believe everyone will have had a chance to come to Christ (if they were truly seeking it) before being condemned to hell. So here is my question? Are you truly seeking God? If so, I believe you will find Him. And I find your questions to be honest and sincere. So I think that's a great start. That's where you start. If there is a God, who is He? Who does He operate? Why do Christians believe this? Why do I need Jesus? Those are all great questions, and if you truly want to know more about God, keep asking these types of questions. I believe those who truly seek Him out will find Him.

I defininately should be concerned about my friend's souls here while on earth. We are told to go out and preach the Gospel to all. But you can't force anyone to believe. It has to be their choice. God gives everyone the same choice.

In answer to your earlier question "Surely if you have knowledge of God you will believe in Him?" Well, You can be told to believe in Christ, and reasons why you should believe in Christ. But no one can force you to accept those reasons. You have to do that yourself.

I probably worded that last sentence badly. For that I apologize. I think what I meant to say was, to understand some things in Christianity, you have to first come to the point of view of looking through Christianity's viewpoint and not a worldly viewpoint.

How can a loving God allow pain and suffering? First you have to understand Christianity's view that pain and suffering is not from God. Pain and suffering came from the choice that Adam and Eve disobeyed God (we all have at some point) and that the punishment for disobeying God is sin death. So we ourselves brought pain and suffering into existance by choosing to disobey God. It is not God's fault, but our own.

But without looking from within Christianity people assume God created pain and suffering and evil. Which is not true. And evil, is really better defined as "the absence of God". Such as cold is defined as the absence of heat.

Does that help clarify some?

 

[WilbertK]

It does help to clarify your position. Thanks for doing that.

I can't say that I'm truly seeking God. If anything, I'm after truth, although I'm not sure that I understand how to find absolute truth, or whether it's even possible to do so. Because of that, I'll settle for useful practical knowledge. That is, views about that world that if they are wrong are possible to prove wrong, and as long as they aren't proven wrong, provide predictions that I can use to do certain things (type this post, solder a robot, grow plants, etcetera).

 

[Spunkn]

Well I believe truth is God. So in a way, searching for truth, is searching for God.

But that's coming from a Christian perspective so I'm sure you don't see it that way, nor should I expect you to. I applaud your efforts to seek out the truth though. Not many people are willing to honestly look at something and decide if it is true or not based on what is said? Not just throw it away because they have a previous bias.

If you think of more questions later, feel free to ask.

 

[WilbertK]

I will. Thanks. I have opened a couple threads in other forums. So if you want to you can help me out there. Again, thanks.

 

[bling]

Do you mean to say that the fact that I don't believe in God implies that I do not want unselfish love? I would disagree.

No, not what I am saying, but similar if you do not want unselfish Love enough to humbly accept that Love as charity, then you really do not want God since God is Love (unselfishness). It is the Love that true Christians are trying to sell you on first and not the fact there is a god.

What do you do about your burdens in your conscience right now?

It is unfortunate, but tragedies can bring us to seeking God’s help (charity) or making us bitter toward God (allowing our hearts to harden), so which way do you go?

 

[WilbertK]

What do you do about your burdens in your conscience right now?

If I make mistakes that cause other people harm I try to make things up to them and ask them for forgiveness.

 

[bling]

If I make mistakes that cause other people harm I try to make things up to them and ask them for forgiveness.

I am not trying to judge you and you might do a better job of this then I do, but the bottom line is we just cannot right a wrong.

If at some point you do become burdened with guilt, God (Love) can help you.

 

[WilbertK]

I am not trying to judge you and you might do a better job of this then I do, but the bottom line is we just cannot right a wrong.

If at some point you do become burdened with guilt, God (Love) can help you.

Well, if I've angered you I think that it's up to you to decide whether or not I can make amends. But anyway, I don't mean to pretend that I'm in any way perfect. I just meant to say that there are other ways to unburden your conscience than you seemed to imply.

 

[bling]

Well, if I've angered you I think that it's up to you to decide whether or not I can make amends. But anyway, I don't mean to pretend that I'm in any way perfect. I just meant to say that there are other ways to unburden your conscience than you seemed to imply.

People use alcohol, drugs, religion, OCB, works, good deeds to others and lots of other things, but it has been my experience they just do not work in the long run.

 

[WilbertK]

it has been my experience they just do not work in the long run.

Is this the case simply in your own experience, or do you think that this is something that is generally true for everyone?

 

[seeking Christ]

Hi there,

I want to start off with a couple of asides. I do have friends who call themselves christians. I don't want to let my philosophical ponderings ruin friendships. Also, I live in a country (the Netherlands) where most people don't actively practice religion. So in a lot of cases I don't even know if people are religious. It just doesn't come up.

That being said, I sometimes actively seek out discussion with christians (and other believers too), and when I do, the following often crosses my mind.
If you do believe in a literal hell, and you believe that because I'm an atheist I will spend eternity there (which is what I mean by being a "real" christian), you can do one of two things:
1) Not bother to try to save me
If you would choose this option, I would have to doubt whether you're actually my friend. If you do actually believe I'm going to be tortured for eternity, and you're actually my friend, wouldn't you constantly be begging me to come to my senses?
2) Constantly be trying to save me
Which would be, to put it mildly, annoying. At least after a while.

Both options would prevent us from becoming (good) friends, I think. Now, as I said, in practice, I haven't experienced any problems with this. Because just about every christian I meet will tell me they believe that if I'm living a good life, I will still go to heaven, or something along these lines. This makes it a non-issue. But I've often wondered what would happen if a good friend of mine was to actually believe I would go to hell. I don't know if I could be friends with them anymore, because of the reason described above. Does that make me a bigot?

Please tell me what you think.

Regards,

Wilbert

I think you break the mold of what Americans come to think of Europeans. I think any true Christian would indeed be concerned, but they should realize they can't save you. I don't know if this makes a significant difference to you or not?

 

[WilbertK]

I think you break the mold of what Americans come to think of Europeans. I think any true Christian would indeed be concerned, but they should realize they can't save you. I don't know if this makes a significant difference to you or not?

In practice it doesn't make a difference. And I think some people in this thread have shown me how it's possible to still be my friend and not annoy me constantly.

I'm curious, what do Americans think of Europeans?

 

[seeking Christ]

Normally you are presented here as being totally quiet about your faith, such that it is rude to even just bring it up. Not at all like this side of the pond! but I do agree, being constantly annoying does no good. A Saint once said preach the Gospel at all times, and when necessary use words.

 

[bling]

Is this the case simply in your own experience, or do you think that this is something that is generally true for everyone?

It has been my experience and the Bible seems to support it.