I dont get it....

[biblebeliever123]

The truth about the body of Christ is found only in Paul's epistles. The body of Christ is a new creation made up of all in this dispensation of grace that have believed the gospel message given to Paul. (1 Cor. 15:1-4)

1 Cor. 12:27,Eph. 4:12, Romans 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, Eph. 4:4, Col. 3:15, Eph. 1:22, 23, Col. 1:18, Eph. 3:6, Eph. 2:14-18, Romans 10:12,13. Paul is the only Bible writer that uses the term body of Christ...the church which is HIS BODY.

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

 

[Dispy]

WHY NO RESPONSE TO THIS? Paul is telling us of the formation of the Body of Christ that didn't exist at Pentecost.

No, Paul is not telling us this, you are. Thanks for the commentary.

You are unable to show me the Church, The Body of Christ prior to Paul. I just pointed it out.

 

[eph3Nine]

You are unable to show me the Church, The Body of Christ prior to Paul. I just pointed it out.

Amen Dispy. YOU pointed it out with scripture...he argues with vigor, but , alas " has a zeal for God , but without knowledge".

 

[RGL1]

You are unable to show me the Church, The Body of Christ prior to Paul. I just pointed it out.

You should read the posts on this thread again and on the thread "When was the church first mentioned?"
The elect of God are the body of Christ. Begining in Genesis before the nation of Israel ever was.

 

[eph3Nine]

No one is able to show the church the Body of Christ BEFORE Paul....because it simply didnt exist! It was one of the mystery truths given exclusively to Paul by DIRECT revelation from Christ risen from the grave and ascended.

 

[RGL1]

No one is able to show the church the Body of Christ BEFORE Paul....because it simply didnt exist! It was one of the mystery truths given exclusively to Paul by DIRECT revelation from Christ risen from the grave and ascended.

Keep reading. You'll get it.

 

[Dispy]

You are unable to show me the Church, The Body of Christ prior to Paul. I just pointed it out.

You should read the posts on this thread again and on the thread "When was the church first mentioned?"
The elect of God are the body of Christ. Begining in Genesis before the nation of Israel ever was.

Let me again give you my definition of the Church, the Body of Christ. It is: Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law.

From Genesis to Abraham I cannot find a Jew mentioned anywhere, also The Law was not given until we get to the book of Exodus. Therefore, I cannot find the Church, the Body of Christ, as defined above, anywhere.

From the Tower of Babel, in Genesis 11, to the setting to the setting aside of Israel, and the raising up of Saul/Paul, I find that if one who was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Laws of Moses.

I cannot even find that any Church was referred to as "the Body of Christ," until after the conversion of Saul/Paul. Maybe it is in your Bible, but I cannot find it in mine.

 

[RGL1]

Let me again give you my definition of the Church, the Body of Christ. It is: Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law.
RIGHT, NOT UNDER THE LAW FOR JUSTIFICATION.

From Genesis to Abraham I cannot find a Jew mentioned anywhere, also The Law was not given until we get to the book of Exodus.
RIGHT, hear Paul:
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Therefore, I cannot find the Church, the Body of Christ, as defined above, anywhere.
Right, that's the point of progressive revelation God gives us information a little at a time hence the bible took many years to be completed.

From the Tower of Babel, in Genesis 11, to the setting to the setting aside of Israel, and the raising up of Saul/Paul, I find that if one who was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Laws of Moses.

They had to believe the gospel.
Galatians 3:8
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, " ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

I cannot even find that any Church was referred to as "the Body of Christ," until after the conversion of Saul/Paul. Maybe it is in your Bible, but I cannot find it in mine.

So what't your point? You can't find God refered to as the but it's in there.[/quote].

 

[RGL1]

Dispy,
What was one of the main errors Paul dealt with in the epistle to the Galatians?

 

[eph3Nine]

Let me again give you the (and this isnt Dispys definition but the definition given by Gods WORD)
definition of the Church, the Body of Christ.

It is: Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law.

If you begin with an improper definition, you will always come away with an improper conclusion. This is the proper and BIBLICAL definition.

From Genesis to Abraham I cannot find a Jew mentioned anywhere, also The Law was not given until we get to the book of Exodus. Therefore, I cannot find the Church, the Body of Christ, as defined above, anywhere.

And Dispy is CORRECT! Since God has TOLD us that the Body of Christ was a "SECRET", "HID IN GOD" UNTIL God chose to reveal it to PAUL for us...then the Body of Christ can NOT have existed since Genesis. God would be calling Himself a LIAR!

From the Tower of Babel, in Genesis 11, to the setting to the setting aside of Israel, and the raising up of Saul/Paul, I find that if one who was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Laws of Moses.

This is what the Bible teaches. Plain and simple.

I cannot even find that any Church was referred to as "the Body of Christ," until after the conversion of Saul/Paul. Maybe it is in your Bible, but I cannot find it in mine.

Dispy is right on here. Someone is making claims that simply cannot be supported in scripture. The Body of Christ JUST WASNT THERE IN Genesis as some are claiming. Lets check our "religious affiliations" at the door and go by what the Bible teaches and then we will ALL be edified.

 

[RGL1]

Let me again give you my definition of the Church, the Body of Christ. It is: Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction and not under the Law.
That's your definition not God's.
RIGHT, NOT UNDER THE LAW FOR JUSTIFICATION.

From Genesis to Abraham I cannot find a Jew mentioned anywhere, also The Law was not given until we get to the book of Exodus.
RIGHT, hear Paul:
14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Therefore, I cannot find the Church, the Body of Christ, as defined above, anywhere.
Right, that's the point of progressive revelation God gives us information a little at a time hence the bible took many years to be completed.

From the Tower of Babel, in Genesis 11, to the setting to the setting aside of Israel, and the raising up of Saul/Paul, I find that if one who was a Gentile and wanted to serve the true and living God, that one had to become a Jew (proselyte) and place themselves under the Laws of Moses.

They had to believe the gospel.
Galatians 3:8
The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, " ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

I cannot even find that any Church was referred to as "the Body of Christ," until after the conversion of Saul/Paul. Maybe it is in your Bible, but I cannot find it in mine.

So what's your point? You can't find God refered to as the trinity but it's in there.

 

[RGL1]

Ahh C'mon eph3 & Dispy answer the question,
What was one of the main errors Paul dealt with in the epistle to the Galatians?

 

[Apollos1]

Dispy –
I am glad you have come out to participate once again…

You said - - -You probably didn't notice that the definition of the Church was a specific Church, i.e. the Body of Christ.

The first thing I take note of here is that your theology not only requires TWO gospels to get the pieces pulled together, it also requires TWO churches.

This does make the “definition” peculiar to you then. I agreed it could be this – it looks like you demand it be this. But how does your definition hold up to how the Bible would define the church? Your definition won’t hold up! You have NO passage from which to derive the definition.

You maintain that Gentiles must be in a group for it to be a “church”. So because no Gentiles (as yet) were being converted, the “group” in Acts 2 on Pentecost could not be your “church”, by your definition only. This is a “strawman” definition used to promote your theology for a specific place and time of your liking (ei. after Saul is converted). According to scripture the “CHURCH” (which is the body) existed before Gentiles began to be converted – this in Acts 2 – your self-serving definition not withstanding.

Luke by inspiration calls that group the CHURCH in Acts 5:11 and continued to call the body of believers, or local groups of believers the “church” throughout his writing over the next 30+ years, even as the "church" grew and were “scattered” in Acts 8.

Paul called that group of believers at Jerusalem “the church of God” in Galatians 1:13 – OH MY !!! Paul did not “see” the distinction you attempt to place on the Jerusalem church, even though no Gentiles could be found in it at that time! It looks like yet another scripture will prove to be problematic for your theology.

You said - - -That Church, the Body of Christ, Jew an Gentile on equal footing, withou distinction, and not under the Law, cannot be found at Pentecost, did not exist at Pentecost.
At Pentecose the group of People that was present was a gropup of religious Jews, and proselytes, who came to Jerusalem to celebrate a Jewish feasst day, Therefore, they were a Jewish Church (assembly).

I can answer this by asking what I asked in my last post – which you did NOT answer… To WHAT were the SAVED “added to” that day – see Acts 2:41 & 47 ?????
You must answer – What was God adding these “saved” to ???!!!

There was an “assembly” BEFORE Peter and the eleven preached. To WHAT "group" were these others added to ?????????????????????????????????????????????????

You said - - -A Jewish assembly (Church) did exist at Pentecost. it was made up of Jews and proselytes. Are you trying to tell me that the group (assembly/church) of religious Jews that assembled in Jerusalem, in Acts 2, was not a Church?

I am saying that a PART of the “assembly” of Jews gathered that day were “added to the saved” (Acts 2:41,47) and these “saved” became something else – a separate group (a “church” in the true meaning of the word – God’s “called out”) that GOD was adding to. When you realize a new “assembly” was formed out of all the others, you may begin to realize what came into existence on that Pentecost!

You said - - - Are you trying to tell me there were no Jewish Churches (assemblies/synogogues) prior to Pentecost?

Nope, I am showing you that something NEW had begun – a new and separate “assembly” that God added to when “those that gladly received his word were baptized” – Acts 2:41. (The Jews were never referred to as the “church” by Luke.)

What you are witnessing in Acts 2 on Pentecost is NOT the same old Jewish synagogue under the law of Moses. This is ALL NEW !

The Holy Spirit has come – prophecies are being fulfilled – the death, burial, resurrection of Christ is confirmed by the Apostle’s witness and by prophecy, Christ has been seated as King on the right hand of God – God has made him both Lord and Christ – repentance and remission of sins has come – and those being saved were added (to the church). This is NOT the same old synagogue with the same old Testament! This is Christ’s will (NT) being executed for the very first time as foretold.

Last post I said -
HOW did “Israel as a nation” reject God ????????????????????????????????????

Did they hold an election? Did the “president” issue an executive order? Maybe they took a poll?

“Israel” as a nation did not exist – it still does NOT exist. Israel was carried away TWICE into captivity:

10 tribes lost into Assyrian captivity – they NEVER returned!
2 tribes carried away twice into Babylonian captivity – these returned, basically as slaves.

During the time of the NT, they were under Roman domination! There was NO nation! This is a foolish notion.

After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD – none of them know for certain which tribe they are from and will cease to exist in perpetuity. The end.

You have said this before and have failed to support then. What do you have to offer now?

I answer your rather limited response below...

You say - - -Israel, as a nation, rejected God the Father when the leaders, and children if Israel in general, rejected the council of God, and refused to be baptizsed of John (Luke 7:30). "For they (Israel) being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness" (Romans 10:3) Further, they allowed John the Baptist to be killed.

The “children of Israel IN GENERAL” ???!!! Please define this – give a scripture to explain this! Is this NATIONAL action or not??? Maybe it is a “general” action on the part of Israel. LOL! YOU need to PROVE or SHOW HOW Israel existed and did these things as a “NATION” !!! Hey, it is YOUR theory – PROVE it!!

Did Israel sin as a “nation” – one sins they all sin? Did they as a “nation” stone the prophets? Did they as a nation refuse John’s teaching ? (You better check John 4:1 – John made many disciples and Jesus made more.) No, this is just a quaint way to “plug-in” a thought that helps your theology. Israel was not acting as a “nation” – there was no “nation”.


They rejected God the Holy Spirit when in Acts 7 they stoned Stephen…

Was the whole NATION there to stone Stephen? That’s a lot of rocks !!! But let me get more specific and to the point… HOW was the stoning of Stephen by those at Jerusalem “national” action. You present events showing where the leaders at Jerusalem and others reject God and His council –fine. But to support your theory you MUST present eveidence demonstrative of “national” action on the part of all Jews. Can you do this? If not, get off the pot!

You said - - - Was Jesus lying to the Syrophenician women when he said He was not sent but to the Lost sheep of the house (nation) of Israel?

Ooops, you forgot we have been here before. “House” does not mean NATION. You really need to check your words and definitions. I do not intend to let you “slide” some error in just because you do not know what words mean! Of course this changed AFTER the cross and Christ’s will was taken to all nations.

You said - - -Were not the leaders of Israel headquartered in Jerusalem?

The RELIGIOUS leaders of the synagogue were. Can you show they had a King, a president, a military leader of any type, or even a “Grand Poombah”? You don’t have a single figurehead to represent the nation that was non-existant.

You said - - -Israel, as a nation was under Roman rule, but still maintained its own Identity.

“As a nation” – you continue to beg the question! They were slaves, nothing more, and without a government of ANY form! Their identity was by race only.

You said - - -Dont think that you can show me from scripture where the leaders of Israel, or the majority of Israelites, did not reject God the Father..

I don’t have to. You must prove your theories and show HOW Israel was acting as a “nation” – or HOW Israel was a “nation”.

You said - - -How come we never find the 12 ging to any Gentiles under the "so called" great commission after Acts 15?

The answer to this has many faces. I take it you ASSUME they did not. Other than such is not recorded to your satisfaction in scripture, what would your proof be that the 12 did not go at some point in time? Do you know where they were 24 hrs a day throughout NT times? How much “theology” will you build upon silence of the scriptures? (More on this later…)

You said - - -The Gentiles were set aside at the Tower of Babel (Gen.11),

I read verses 1-9 that cover this event. The writer fails to mention what you insert – that the Gentiles were “set aside” here at Babel.

- - - and now we find the Jews in the very same "set aside boat."

What boat? You continue to beg the question – you have proven neither. Jew and Gentile alike are “shut up” under sin (Romans 11:32) and are dependent upon God’s mercy for escape, but this is not what I think you are trying to say.

God formed “one new man” out of Jew and Gentile, which required removal of the Law – Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14 – made possible at the cross. This “formation” began on Pentecost when the will of Christ, not the Law, began to be preached by the Apostles, God started adding people to the saved, and these “glad tidings” spread though out the world as the "CHURCH" was scattered abroad - Acts 8:4ff !

 

[RGL1]

Dispy –
I am glad you have come out to participate once again…

You said - - -You probably didn't notice that the definition of the Church was a specific Church, i.e. the Body of Christ.

The first thing I take note of here is that your theology not only requires TWO gospels to get the pieces pulled together, it also requires TWO churches.

This does make the “definition” peculiar to you then. I agreed it could be this – it looks like you demand it be this. But how does your definition hold up to how the Bible would define the church? Your definition won’t hold up! You have NO passage from which to derive the definition.

You maintain that Gentiles must be in a group for it to be a “church”. So because no Gentiles (as yet) were being converted, the “group” in Acts 2 on Pentecost could not be your “church”, by your definition only. This is a “strawman” definition used to promote your theology for a specific place and time of your liking (ei. after Saul is converted). According to scripture the “CHURCH” (which is the body) existed before Gentiles began to be converted – this in Acts 2 – your self-serving definition not withstanding.

Luke by inspiration calls that group the CHURCH in Acts 5:11 and continued to call the body of believers, or local groups of believers the “church” throughout his writing over the next 30+ years, even as the "church" grew and were “scattered” in Acts 8.

Paul called that group of believers at Jerusalem “the church of God” in Galatians 1:13 – OH MY !!! Paul did not “see” the distinction you attempt to place on the Jerusalem church, even though no Gentiles could be found in it at that time! It looks like yet another scripture will prove to be problematic for your theology.

You said - - -That Church, the Body of Christ, Jew an Gentile on equal footing, withou distinction, and not under the Law, cannot be found at Pentecost, did not exist at Pentecost.
At Pentecose the group of People that was present was a gropup of religious Jews, and proselytes, who came to Jerusalem to celebrate a Jewish feasst day, Therefore, they were a Jewish Church (assembly).

I can answer this by asking what I asked in my last post – which you did NOT answer… To WHAT were the SAVED “added to” that day – see Acts 2:41 & 47 ?????
You must answer – What was God adding these “saved” to ???!!!

There was an “assembly” BEFORE Peter and the eleven preached. To WHAT "group" were these others added to ?????????????????????????????????????????????????

You said - - -A Jewish assembly (Church) did exist at Pentecost. it was made up of Jews and proselytes. Are you trying to tell me that the group (assembly/church) of religious Jews that assembled in Jerusalem, in Acts 2, was not a Church?

I am saying that a PART of the “assembly” of Jews gathered that day were “added to the saved” (Acts 2:41,47) and these “saved” became something else – a separate group (a “church” in the true meaning of the word – God’s “called out”) that GOD was adding to. When you realize a new “assembly” was formed out of all the others, you may begin to realize what came into existence on that Pentecost!

You said - - - Are you trying to tell me there were no Jewish Churches (assemblies/synogogues) prior to Pentecost?

Nope, I am showing you that something NEW had begun – a new and separate “assembly” that God added to when “those that gladly received his word were baptized” – Acts 2:41. (The Jews were never referred to as the “church” by Luke.)

What you are witnessing in Acts 2 on Pentecost is NOT the same old Jewish synagogue under the law of Moses. This is ALL NEW !

The Holy Spirit has come – prophecies are being fulfilled – the death, burial, resurrection of Christ is confirmed by the Apostle’s witness and by prophecy, Christ has been seated as King on the right hand of God – God has made him both Lord and Christ – repentance and remission of sins has come – and those being saved were added (to the church). This is NOT the same old synagogue with the same old Testament! This is Christ’s will (NT) being executed for the very first time as foretold.

Last post I said -
HOW did “Israel as a nation” reject God ????????????????????????????????????

Did they hold an election? Did the “president” issue an executive order? Maybe they took a poll?

“Israel” as a nation did not exist – it still does NOT exist. Israel was carried away TWICE into captivity:

10 tribes lost into Assyrian captivity – they NEVER returned!
2 tribes carried away twice into Babylonian captivity – these returned, basically as slaves.

During the time of the NT, they were under Roman domination! There was NO nation! This is a foolish notion.

After the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD – none of them know for certain which tribe they are from and will cease to exist in perpetuity. The end.

You have said this before and have failed to support then. What do you have to offer now?

I answer your rather limited response below...

You say - - -Israel, as a nation, rejected God the Father when the leaders, and children if Israel in general, rejected the council of God, and refused to be baptizsed of John (Luke 7:30). "For they (Israel) being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness" (Romans 10:3) Further, they allowed John the Baptist to be killed.

The “children of Israel IN GENERAL” ???!!! Please define this – give a scripture to explain this! Is this NATIONAL action or not??? Maybe it is a “general” action on the part of Israel. LOL! YOU need to PROVE or SHOW HOW Israel existed and did these things as a “NATION” !!! Hey, it is YOUR theory – PROVE it!!

Did Israel sin as a “nation” – one sins they all sin? Did they as a “nation” stone the prophets? Did they as a nation refuse John’s teaching ? (You better check John 4:1 – John made many disciples and Jesus made more.) No, this is just a quaint way to “plug-in” a thought that helps your theology. Israel was not acting as a “nation” – there was no “nation”.


They rejected God the Holy Spirit when in Acts 7 they stoned Stephen…

Was the whole NATION there to stone Stephen? That’s a lot of rocks !!! But let me get more specific and to the point… HOW was the stoning of Stephen by those at Jerusalem “national” action. You present events showing where the leaders at Jerusalem and others reject God and His council –fine. But to support your theory you MUST present eveidence demonstrative of “national” action on the part of all Jews. Can you do this? If not, get off the pot!

You said - - - Was Jesus lying to the Syrophenician women when he said He was not sent but to the Lost sheep of the house (nation) of Israel?

Ooops, you forgot we have been here before. “House” does not mean NATION. You really need to check your words and definitions. I do not intend to let you “slide” some error in just because you do not know what words mean! Of course this changed AFTER the cross and Christ’s will was taken to all nations.

You said - - -Were not the leaders of Israel headquartered in Jerusalem?

The RELIGIOUS leaders of the synagogue were. Can you show they had a King, a president, a military leader of any type, or even a “Grand Poombah”? You don’t have a single figurehead to represent the nation that was non-existant.

You said - - -Israel, as a nation was under Roman rule, but still maintained its own Identity.

“As a nation” – you continue to beg the question! They were slaves, nothing more, and without a government of ANY form! Their identity was by race only.

You said - - -Dont think that you can show me from scripture where the leaders of Israel, or the majority of Israelites, did not reject God the Father..

I don’t have to. You must prove your theories and show HOW Israel was acting as a “nation” – or HOW Israel was a “nation”.

You said - - -How come we never find the 12 ging to any Gentiles under the "so called" great commission after Acts 15?

The answer to this has many faces. I take it you ASSUME they did not. Other than such is not recorded to your satisfaction in scripture, what would your proof be that the 12 did not go at some point in time? Do you know where they were 24 hrs a day throughout NT times? How much “theology” will you build upon silence of the scriptures? (More on this later…)

You said - - -The Gentiles were set aside at the Tower of Babel (Gen.11),

I read verses 1-9 that cover this event. The writer fails to mention what you insert – that the Gentiles were “set aside” here at Babel.

- - - and now we find the Jews in the very same "set aside boat."

What boat? You continue to beg the question – you have proven neither. Jew and Gentile alike are “shut up” under sin (Romans 11:32) and are dependent upon God’s mercy for escape, but this is not what I think you are trying to say.

God formed “one new man” out of Jew and Gentile, which required removal of the Law – Eph. 2:15, Col. 2:14 – made possible at the cross. This “formation” began on Pentecost when the will of Christ, not the Law, began to be preached by the Apostles, God started adding people to the saved, and these “glad tidings” spread though out the world as the "CHURCH" was scattered abroad - Acts 8:4ff !

BRAVO!! Excellent post! Great work.

 

[eph3Nine]

A zeal for God without knowledge is NOT something to be proud of. It is something to REPENT over.

 

[Apollos1]

Does this mean you are repenting ???

 

[eph3Nine]

The truth about the body of Christ is found only in Paul's epistles. The body of Christ is a new creation made up of all in this dispensation of grace that have believed the gospel message given to Paul. (1 Cor. 15:1-4)

1 Cor. 12:27,Eph. 4:12, Romans 12:5, 1 Cor. 10:17, Eph. 4:4, Col. 3:15, Eph. 1:22, 23, Col. 1:18, Eph. 3:6, Eph. 2:14-18, Romans 10:12,13. Paul is the only Bible writer that uses the term body of Christ...the church which is HIS BODY.

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Paul IS the ONLY One who uses the term BODY OF Christ. LISTEN and LEARN....

 

[Kimberlyann]

What body do these Messianic Hebrews belong to? Are there two bodies? Heb 13:3 - Remember the prisoners as if chained with them--those who are mistreated--since you yourselves are in the body also.

 

[RGL1]

What body do these Messianic Hebrews belong to? Are there two bodies? Heb 13:3 - Remember the prisoners as if chained with them--those who are mistreated--since you yourselves are in the body also.

Notice the body not a body.

 

[Kimberlyann]

Notice the body not a body.

You are right it says The body not A body. This really isn't hard to understand.