I dont get it....

[Tychicum]

I am an Acts 2 believer Apollos1. Actually at the foot of the cross to be exact ... Where have you been all this time ... ?

I think you may be boxing shadows ...

I state it wasn't revealed until Paul. Any evidence of it earlier found in Scripture was not understood ... even in the most rudimentary fashion. What part of the terms "mystery" and "hid in God" is hard to understand? If the Holy Spirit by Paul's pen said He hid it ... He hid it. It may have been hidden in plain sight ... and you have a map (the whole Bible to be able to find it out ... the benefit of living in the 21st century) ... but it was hid none the less at the time ...

So Apollos1 ... all that "kingdom at hand" stuff ... do you say it was not a genuine offer of the kingdom promised to Israel? Are you saying that the preaching during Jesus earthly ministry and then the offer by Peter during the pentecostal address in Acts was disingenuous?

Regarding Peter ... I think you are following quite a lot of Roman tradition if you give credence to all of the travels they say he made in spite of the lack of any Scripture to back it up.

The Holy Spirit found it worked best for Him to limit Peter's contribution to Scripture to a couple letters ... I don't think I am going to add anything He didn't see fit.

 

[stumpjumper]

MOD HAT ON

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MOD HAT OFF

 

[Apollos1]

I realize that I am quite a forthright person and my speech is sometimes a little too "abrasive".

Whether or not Dispy, Tychicum, and E39 find me that way (yes, I have left the door open there, huh?), I suppose I should tone things down a bit as to not be found offensive to others reding this exchange who are not actually participating in it.

Please realize that this is not personal but an attempt to get those that disagree with me to answer the questions and points they continually overlook -again and again! You know who you are - lol!

My thanks to stumpjumper and associates for their patience.

I will repost my last material which was removed with some editing. Proper placement would have been at #133 for those keepign track...

 

[Tychicum]

Apollos1 a simple suggestion.

If you want a response to your post keep them short. No more than 8 or 10 lines.

Keep the color out.

It makes it very difficult to quote and edit around all of your markers.

I actually thought you did as you do to LIMIT response ...

And be polite. Even courteous. Your demeanor either supports your position or detracts.

I must admit some of your "stuff" I don't even read so it is quite impossible to respond.

OH ... and as a PS ... if you don't know ... there are some who have emailed me and are not posting at all due to ... well ... due to some of the "goings on" ... over the last few weeks. As I have been away I have no idea what they meant and am not interested in going back in time only forward. But whom ever it was ... if the purpose was to chase these folks away ... it worked.

.

 

[Apollos1]

Tych –

Where have I been? Mostly watching you not respond to what is asked or the points that are made that counter your theology. I would be slightly happier if I even had a “shadow” to box – but you won’t even offer that.

And speaking of offerings, I have noticed once again that your last post, as most are, contain NO SCRIPTURE references at all, with the single exception of Acts 2, which you mention only in passing at the first. My last post was 3 pages - you will find all the scriptures I used there - and the ones you did not answer or reply to in your last (basically) -1- paragraph post.

You claim to be an Acts 2 believer… alright. But I do not think you realize what was really happening there that day – and to what extent.

In reference to the PURPOSE of the cross, I will agree with you as far that it was not revealed until NT times, although we can see plainly that OT scripture did in fact (as Paul and Peter succinctly state) tell us the purpose of the cross.

YOUR problem will be to prove that the purpose was not known in NT times until Paul knew. We are back to that “Paul first” and “Paul only” problem that you can not prove.

“Mystery” and “hidden wisdom” are not difficult to understand. Are they difficult for you to understand? You can read my replies to Dispy above to see what I have already discussed with him. You do know the difference between a “mystery” and a “secret”, don’t you ??? Maybe you will answer – Dispy didn’t!

But we are not disagreeing that things were “hidden in God” are we? No – we disagree WHEN and to WHOM they were revealed ! Again, see Acts 2 for this answer.

You said - - -So Apollos1 ... all that "kingdom at hand" stuff ... do you say it was not a genuine offer of the kingdom promised to Israel? Are you saying that the preaching during Jesus earthly ministry and then the offer by Peter during the pentecostal address in Acts was disingenuous?

I say - you can not answer my questions by asking more questions. Then you chose to “beg the question” with your remarks of a “genuine offer” of Jesus, then Peter. If you disagree with what I said about the kingdom being spiritual, spell out your case, what you believe, and then compare it to what I have offered. Why not put some real effort into your posts?

You said - Regarding Peter ... I think you are following quite a lot of Roman tradition if you give credence to all of the travels they say he made in spite of the lack of any Scripture to back it up.

I gave no such credence. Go back and read what I said. I have offered only that which I can prove by scripture and the rest is silence. SILENCE is what the dispys build there “no ministry and no travel by Peter (or the eleven)” to the Gentiles case upon. They have no case.

May I encourage you to put more effort into your posts and when you read that which is already posted.

(P.S. I just saw your last post. I certainly hope that you will follow your own advice. And watch your condescension, it is a very unattractive quality.)

 

[Tychicum]

Tych –

Where have I been? Mostly watching you not respond to what is asked or the points that are made that counter your theology. I would be slightly happier if I even had a “shadow” to box – but you won’t even offer that.

Hey. I have been away for nearly 3 weeks. That's what I meant by "shadow boxing". You didn't even notice.

LOL ...

To be clear.

My purpose here is not to debate you. My purpose here is not to convince you of anything. My purpose here is not to teach you.

I couldn't be bothered.

You can believe what ever you like.

My purpose here is to learn. And quite honestly brother you got nothing to teach which I haven't heard before.

If you think I don't know what your position is on this or that you are quite mistaken. I held similar positions myself over the years.

(Well all except the kingdom not being real only "spiritual". I have always taken the promises of God to Israel at face value and that there will be a literal fulfillment of the unconditional covenants made with Israel with a real physical kingdom.)

I would offer you that you likely hold the majority position by quite a measure. Very traditional.

The only reason I may respond to something you or someone else might have said is to attempt to get you to think a bit.

If I run into a non-thinker ... someone not interested in considering my opinion ... someone who is not interested in calm exchange of ideas but gets whipped into a lather and doesn't seem to want to agree to disagree ... I simply don't bother.

It's actually not all about you.

(and with that ... we are done. Good day sir.)

 

[Apollos1]

Dispy –

(Edited original post #133. For informational purposes only at this point.)

You said > > >In my post #27 on May 28,under the thread "Directly Applicable Scriptures for Kingdom vs Body Churches." I asked the following questions, to which I have not received a reply, promiesd to be answered, but never were.
I did answer them although I am certain you believe I did not. Let me touch on each question. If you can not see that the church came into existence in Acts 2, you may not perceive the answers I have already given.

<<>>

You said > > >Being the 12 were commissioned to to to all the world, Why did they end up saying that they would stay with the circumcision?
They remained (Peter at least) in Jerusalem by the direction of the HS - (cf. Galatians 2:8).

The “commission” is to preach to ALL nations – every creature. The Apostles did this in Acts 2 (see verse 5). This may or may not require physically going into all the earth. As I have already mentioned above, the scriptures are silent on most of the Apostle’s goings, as where were they in Galatians 1:19 as Paul did not see them at Jerusalem over a period of 2 weeks when Paul was there - (cf. Acts 9:26)?

Along this point you are YET to answer my questions about Galatians 2:11 and why Peter was in Antioch. Then, we can question whether Jesus lied to Peter in Acts 1:8, or whether Jesus actually meant the witness of the Apostles would go into all the world – which in fact it did in a very short period of time.

Are they now out of the will of God? No, they never were.

You said > > >Where in OT prophesy, or gospels, do we find The purpose of the Cross?

1 Corinthians 15:3-4 – “For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures…”

Paul states plainly that Christ “died for our sins” according to the scriptures. If I knew nothing about the OT this spells it all out nicely. Of course, I have told you this before – whether or not YOU see where the OT does in fact tell us. Funny thing is, you do not even believe Paul.

You said > > >Where in prophesy, or gospels, do we find The Body of Christ, Jew and Gentile on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law?
We read about such in Luke 2:32. Simeon of Jerusalem praised God when he saw the baby Jesus and mentioned that He would be a “light” unto the Gentiles and the glory of the people of Israel. This makes reference back to Isaiah 42:6, 49:6, and possibly 60:3.

Paul while in Antioch (of Pisidia) gives the very same reference to Jesus in Acts 13:47. ALL men were in God’s plan of salvation before the foundation of the earth.

Luke 24:47 tells us this salvation (remission of sins) for ALL nations was to BEGIN in JERUSALEM. This salvation spread to the Gentiles in via Peter in Acts 10 and in Acts 11:19-20 when men of Cyprus and Cyrene came to Antioch (of Syria) and preached the gospel to the Gentiles. (You buddy Paul was a “Johnny-come-lately”.)

You said > > > Where in prophesy, or gospels, do we find the rapture of the Chruch, The Body of Christ?
I do not believe in a “rapture” as you believe it to be. Jesus will return only once to gather the saints to heaven, not touching even His foot on this ball of dirt. I would suggest a much more careful reading by you of 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18, and don’t read anything INTO the passage that is not there!

You said > > > Where in prophesy, or gospels, do we find salvation by grace through faith alone in the shed blood of Christ?
All salvation is by grace. Salvation is NOT by “faith alone” and the expression, as well as the practice, is foreign to NT scripture.

You said > > >Where in prophesy, or gospels, do we find that the Gentiles will be blessed; apart from Israel? Doesn't John 4:22 say that "...salvation is of the Jews"?
The Jews certainly are the “cause, source, or origin” of salvation as Jesus was a Jew and it is through Him we have salvation. So it is impossible for the Gentiles to be “blessed” (saved) outside the scope of Jewish influence. You have mis-applied scripture again.
<<<>>>

Now, just for the record, answer the following:

-Did you ever see that a “house” is not the same as a “nation” ?

-What scripture(s) did you derive YOUR definition of church from ???
Ephesians 2:13-18 doesn’t define it! Do you have any other?

-If in Acts 2 the Apostles did not know the reason for Christ’s death as you claim, HOW did they work in all of that “remission of sins” stuff ???.

-Did John preach the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ? If not, then this was NEW preaching in Acts 2.

You said - - - THE LAW CANNOT BE OF NON-EFFECT UNTIL IT HAS BEEN ANNOUNCED!!!
-Where do you get your silly little rules? (See Matthew 28:18ff for the answer to the above.)

-When did the world find out that “the Law” had been “nailed to the cross”? (Col. 2:14)

-Do you know the difference between a “mystery” and a “secret” ???

-Did you see in Romans 16:25-26 that the OT scriptures “make known” the mystery – the mystery Paul taught ??? See also Romans 1:1-2.

-What was PETER doing in Antioch in Galatians 2:11 ???
--Don’t you think Peter went to Antioch (of Syria) to preach to the Gentiles? Did you know PETER left Jerusalem?

-Paul called that group of believers at Jerusalem “the church of God” in Galatians 1:13 !!!

Was the church in Jerusalem at the time of Acts 9 and prior the “CHURCH OF GOD” as Paul says – or not ???

 

[Dispy]

Apollos1:What part of "GOOD-BYE" did't you understand?

 

[Apollos1]

Tych –

You said - - -My purpose here is not to debate you. My purpose here is not to convince you of anything. My purpose here is not to teach you. I couldn't be bothered. You can believe what ever you like. My purpose here is to learn.
I can only say that you must have a most unique way to learn things.

And quite honestly brother you got nothing to teach which I haven't heard before.
I think this remark to be inaccurate – but apparently you will not be finding out.

If you think I don't know what your position is on this or that you are quite mistaken.
I have serious doubts you know what I believe, other than what has been posted here. I do not think that my beliefs in many groups would be found to be “traditional” – no physical kingdom & no thousand year reign - but I do believe them to be scriptural.

Well all except the kingdom not being real only "spiritual".
Well, at least there is one exception to your remark above.
But aren’t “spiritual” things real?

The only reason I may respond to something you or someone else might have said is to attempt to get you to think a bit.
Contrary to what you may be thinking, I encourage discussion! I admit replies are sometimes quite long (not just mine), but sometimes that is necessary. If you are happy with short blips, I say stay with it. And of course you are free to reply when and as you deem appropriate. I reserve the right to point out where and when you have not answered, been forthright, and to answer in length as required.

It is quite a simple matter for readers to know when someone is really “stepping up to the plate” in an attempt to derive the truth on a matter – and when they are not.

If I run into a non-thinker ... someone not interested in considering my opinion ... someone who is not interested in calm exchange of ideas but gets whipped into a lather and doesn't seem to want to agree to disagree ... I simply don't bother.
Are you saying if you can answer an argument, you don’t bother? Or are you saying it is all about you?

It's actually not all about you.
We have discussed this specific point before. Considering the past discussion, the beginning of this post, and your comment in the middle of it (look above), the only conclusion continues to be –
we know it is still about you.

(and with that ... we are done. Good day sir.)
With so many things left UNanswered? Is this where I say I am… surprised?

(P.S. In reference to your gracious acceptance of my apology above, I want to make reference to the emails you allegedly received.

I do not know what this may be referring to (& apparently you do not either), but anyone with “issues” can address me or the moderator to deal with any problems they may be having.

If the problem has to do with the content of the posts addressing the truth, then only study and honesty will resolve that matter.)

Caio!

 

[Apollos1]

Dispy -

That post was for "informational" purposes only at this point - read the beginning!

But I find it curious that it was "ok" for you to quote from it, and address me as "someone" in your reply, yet you want to feign displeasure at it.

I believe some would consider that somewhat hypocritical.

 

[heymikey80]

Nowhere in your references do I find the purpose of the Cross. You are reading that into those because of 20/20 hindsight.

Targum Jonathan (BC) demonstrates that I'm not reading it into the passage.

Your purpose for the Cross might not be clearly apparent in the passage. God's purpose for the Cross is indeed.

The eunuch answered Philip and said, "Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?" Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. Acts 8:34-35

​

 

[Dispy]

Nowhere in your references do I find the purpose of the Cross. You are reading that into those because of 20/20 hindsight.

Targum Jonathan (BC) demonstrates that I'm not reading it into the passage.

Your purpose for the Cross might not be clearly apparent in the passage. God's purpose for the Cross is indeed.

The eunuch answered Philip and said, "Please tell me, of whom does the prophet say this? Of himself or of someone else?" Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him. Acts 8:34-35

​

I don't have a clue as to who Targum Jonathan (BC) migjht be. Did he write a book in the Bible, or by Divine inspirationd?

At the time that Isaiah 53, Isaiah 9, Habakkuk 2, and Genesis 22 were written, Crucifiction, as a means of capital punshment wasn't eve invented yet. Could you PLEASEpoint out the Cross for me in those chapters?

Acts 8 is prior to the time that Saul/Paul was even saved. The purpose of the Cross was not made known until sometime after Paul was saved.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Tychicum]

The purpose of the Cross was not made known until sometime after Paul was saved.

Which was necessary ... For had they known ...

1 Corinthians 2:7-8 KJV (7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

People forget that Satan, no doubt, has a copy of the Bible and is very familiar with it. According to Scripture Satan is one very intelligent being. If it were there in prophecy and at all possible to understand ... he would never have inspired the plot to kill Jesus.

Of course looking through the rear view mirror we see all sorts of "types" which point to the anti-type of the cross. But that is as Dispy said ... 20/20 hindsight.

 

[heymikey80]

I don't have a clue as to who Targum Jonathan (BC) migjht be. Did he write a book in the Bible, or by Divine inspirationd?

At the time that Isaiah 53, Isaiah 9, Habakkuk 2, and Genesis 22 were written, Crucifiction, as a means of capital punshment wasn't eve invented yet. Could you PLEASEpoint out the Cross for me in those chapters?

Acts 8 is prior to the time that Saul/Paul was even saved. The purpose of the Cross was not made known until sometime after Paul was saved.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

Jonathan wrote a Bible Study text -- a targum -- in the first century, BC, where he identified Isaiah 53 as being Messianic.

The purpose of the Cross does not require how it happens to be stated in details like, "Oh, Romans will nail Him to a cross." If Jesus were given capital punishment by stoning, would you reject Him? How about if Jesus were sent to the electric chair, today? Would He be any less the Son of God, dying for you?

He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Surely our griefs He Himself bore,
And our sorrows He carried;
Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,
Smitten of God, and afflicted.
But He was pierced through for our transgressions,
He was crushed for our iniquities;
The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,
And by His scourging we are healed.
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.
He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He did not open His mouth;
Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,
And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,
So He did not open His mouth.
By oppression and judgment He was taken away;
And as for His generation, who considered
That He was cut off out of the land of the living
For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?
His grave was assigned with wicked men,
Yet He was with a rich man in His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.
But the LORD was pleased
To crush Him, putting Him to grief;
If He would render Himself as a guilt offering,
He will see His offspring,
He will prolong His days,
And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
As a result of the anguish of His soul,
He will see it and be satisfied;
By His knowledge the Righteous One,
My Servant, will justify the many,
As He will bear their iniquities.
Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great,
And He will divide the booty with the strong;
Because He poured out Himself to death,
And was numbered with the transgressors;
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,
And interceded for the transgressors.
The purpose of the Cross was quite well-described by Isaiah.

 

[Apollos1]

heymikey80 –

Acts 8:34-35 was a powerful comment on the fact that the OT scriptures DO mention Christ in them. This passage mentions the sacrifice that Christ would humbly submit to.

Not that you need it, but I want to mention (again) that if you or I did not understand one OT verse about the Gospel, Christ’s coming, His sacrifice upon the cross, or the purpose of His sacrifice, we can know that OT scripture tells about all of this!

1 Corinthians 15:
1 “Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand,
2by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain.
3For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4and that he was buried; and that he hath been raised on the third day according to the scriptures…”

Paul’s words are too plain. OT scriptures TELL the PURPOSE of Christ’s death on the cross – it was… “according to the scriptures”.

Further information about what the OT scriptures tell us is found in
Romans 1:
1 “Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called [to be] an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 which he promised afore through his prophets in the holy scriptures…”

The Gospel was promised – through the prophets – in the scriptures.

Later Paul mentions this again in
Romans 16:
25 Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,

26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith:

Paul’s gospel (which is my gospel too, and yours) is according to the mystery that God revealed – a mystery in the OT & revealed in the NT. “Now” (during that period of time) the mystery, the gospel had been manifested, and by the “scriptures of the prophets” is “made known” !

The good news (gospel) of our salvation was known about by the prophets, although they did not understand HOW or WHEN God’s salvation and grace would appear to man.

Peter plainly spells this out in
1 Peter 1:
10 Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that [should come] unto you:

11 searching what [time] or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.

12 To whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto you, did they minister these things, which now have been announced unto you through them that preached the gospel unto you by the Holy Spirit sent forth from heaven; which things angel desire to look into.

These things were not revealed to them (the prophets), but they are revealed to us.
The prophets spoke of the things concerning Christ, and now being revealed, we can look back and know that it was the gospel, Christ, and His sufferings (among many other things) that the prophets were speaking of. That we can look back and see the purpose of Christ’s sufferings on the cross in OT scriptures does not diminish the quality of that sacrifice or diminish the revelation of it one whit.

Perhaps as important, looking back and reading about the purpose of Christ’s sufferings on the cross in the OT does not detract from the “comfort” afforded by those passages “written aforetime”.

These things were written, done, and revealed according to God’s wisdom. This is what Paul spoke about in
1 Corinthians 2:
7 “…but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, [even] the [wisdom] that hath been hidden, which God foreordained before the worlds unto our glory…”

“We speak” (the apostles) the wisdom God had hidden from before the foundation of the world (God had chosen the saved “in Christ” before the foundation of the world – cf. Ephesians 1:3-4.)

Verse 8 tells that man never comprehended God’s hidden wisdom.
Verse 9 tells us that God ALWAYS had man’s salvation planned.
Verse 10 tells us that it is the Holy Spirit that has revealed all of this.

Thanks for listening. I had wanted to put those scriptures together in that order for some time and just got around to it.

I’ll be taking a short trip – be back in about a week…

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Which was necessary ... For had they known ...




People forget that Satan, no doubt, has a copy of the Bible and is very familiar with it. According to Scripture Satan is one very intelligent being. If it were there in prophecy and at all possible to understand ... he would never have inspired the plot to kill Jesus.

Of course looking through the rear view mirror we see all sorts of "types" which point to the anti-type of the cross. But that is as Dispy said ... 20/20 hindsight.

1 Corinthians 2:7-8 KJV (7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

The "princes of this world" in that passage is not Rome, who through Pilate washed hands of the matter of His death, and it is certainly not the rulers of Israel, for they were not "the rulers of this world" who "crucified the LORD of Glory".


Mat 27:24
When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [to it].


Though physically Rome had the authority, and through Pilate gave Israel's rulers authority, yet they were not the"rulers of this world", the principalities and powers, the rulers of darkness, ruling over this world from the realm of spirit, who are the wicked princes of this world against whom we "wrestle" and have victory over in the name -the authority- of Jesus -if we are "in Him", that is.

Satan, being the prince of the power of the air, and their leader, are those princes of this world.
Not all are fallen. God warns them in Psalm 82 that they, being "judges" over the world, will die "like Adam" [Hebrew is "Adam"] "one prince" who "is fallen"or else "like on of the fallen princes" named as those chained watchers.

Adam was "son of God" [Luke 3:38], and is fallen, and his kingdom is corrupted and was and is held for the second created "Firstborn" who has ransomed it and will take His great power to Himself and rule His kingdom at His appearing, casting out all the wicked and everything that offends from the face of this earth.

There are elect angels and fallen angels, and they are all called sons of God, who are set over this earth, since the fall of "Adam, son of God": and the High King of it is Jesus Christ, "Firstborn", unto whom all will answer "at His appearing" when He appears in Person to cleanse and reign in Person over it from Jerusalem below, and from Zion above, simultaneously, for the thousamd years: and forever joining the above with the below after the regeneration of the heavens and the earth. -that's how I understand it, but that part is not a salvation issue.

The errors of MAD are salvation issues, I do believe, for they touch the Person and the Finished Work of the LORD Jesus Chist in their rejection of the New Birth and the obedience to Him after regeneration of Spirit in being baptized in water, which He commanded of His disciples in all the nations who receive Him.


Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,


Col 2:15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

The sons of God set over the earth did not know and desired to know:
1Pe 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.*

*Peter got that information from the book of Enoch, and accepted it as fact; just as Jesus, Peter, Jude, James, John and Paul also did accept what was written there as fact.

 

[eph3Nine]

Which was necessary ... For had they known ...




People forget that Satan, no doubt, has a copy of the Bible and is very familiar with it. According to Scripture Satan is one very intelligent being. If it were there in prophecy and at all possible to understand ... he would never have inspired the plot to kill Jesus.

Of course looking through the rear view mirror we see all sorts of "types" which point to the anti-type of the cross. But that is as Dispy said ... 20/20 hindsight.

amen tychie....Had THE MYSTERY been known in times PAST, then the SCRIPTURE says that satan would NOT have crucified the Lord of Glory.

God HAD a SECRET and He kept His secret HID IN HIMSELF and not even satan knew of it. It was His plan ALL along but He chose NOT to reveal it until DUE TIME. Paul was the due time testifier and the APOSTLE appointed BY God for the job.

 

[biblebeliever123]

God had a brilliant plan for the redemption of mankind and the repossession of heaven and earth...before the world began. This mystery that was hid in God was hidden for a purpose. We know (or should know) that Christ accomplished everything necessary for our salvation by his death, his burial, and his resurrection.
If Satan had known it he would not have been anxious for the Lord to go to the cross. That is what 1 Cor. 2:6-8 is telling us. IT was the HIDDEN WISDOM OF GOD.
1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
1 Corinthians 2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

This HIDDEN WISDOM was not hidden in scripture, in prophecy, in any 'lost' books...it was HID IN GOD. It was NOT revealed to any one else until it was revealed to the Apostle Paul by the risen, ascended, glorified Lord.
Peter didn't know it, John didn't know it...none of the other apostles knew it previous to the revelations given to Paul IT was to Paul first and THEN to others has it been shown.

Romans 16:25...the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY which was KEPT SECRET since the world began.

Eph. 3:9, THE MYSTERY which from the beginning of the world hath been HID IN GOD.
(Not in scripture, not in some lost books, not in prophecy, not known because it was HID IN GOD...God knows how to keep a secret!)

Col. 1:26, Even the MYSTERY which hath been HID from ages and from generations.
Peter doesn't talk about a mystery being given to him, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John...not found there...the MYSTERY is found in PAUL'S EPISTLES, Paul the apostle of the gentiles. Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Eph. 3:5, Which in other AGES was NOT MADE KNOWN unto the sons of men..."
Eph. 3:8, THE UNSEARCHABLE riches of Christ"
Unsearchable means untraceable...you can't find it in the other Scriptures...it was HID IN GOD till revealed to Paul and in turn BY PAUL to others.

EPh. 1:9...Having made known UNTO US the MYSTERY of his will.
Eph. 3:3 He made known UNTO ME (PAUL) the MYSTERY
Eph. 3:4, ye may understand MY knowledge in THE MYSTERY of Christ.
Eph. 6:19, to make known THE MYSTERY of the gospel
Col. 4:3, to speak THE MYSTERY of Christ for shich I am also in bonds.
1 Tim. 3:9, Holding THE MYSTERY of the faith in a pure conscience.

The MYSTERY message came from the risen, ascended, glorified Lord by DIRECT REVELATION to Paul. Gal. 1:11,12, Eph. 3:3, 2 Cor. 12;1,7.
It was revealed to PAUL. He was the ONLY apostle PERSONALLY TAUGHT the MYSTERY by the Lord Jesus Christ. The gospel of the kingdom had TWELVE apostles, BUT the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY had ONE apostle.
Gal. 2:7, Eph. 3:2, Col. 1:25, Gal. 1:11, Gal. 1:15,16, Gal. 2:8, Acts 9:15, 1 Tim. 2:7, 2 Tim. 1:11, Acts 26:16,17,Rom. 11:13, Rom. 15:16

(capitals for emphasis, not yelling)

 

[yeshuasavedme]

God had a brilliant plan for the redemption of mankind and the repossession of heaven and earth...before the world began. This mystery that was hid in God was hidden for a purpose. We know (or should know) that Christ accomplished everything necessary for our salvation by his death, his burial, and his resurrection.
...
This HIDDEN WISDOM was not hidden in scripture, in prophecy, in any 'lost' books...it was HID IN GOD. It was NOT revealed to any one else until it was revealed to the Apostle Paul by the risen, ascended, glorified Lord.

(capitals for emphasis, not yelling)

One can also emphasize by using italics -it is a lot easier to read
I disagree with your doctrine: Apollos1 wrote some excellent posts on the Gospel being "one", and posted them here http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=25790628&postcount=155 using many passages from Paul's writings showing that those of you who get your doctrine from men who teach this "MAD"-ism are not saying at all what Paul said, for He said much more about where and when and how the gospel was taught and made known.

As to that particular Mystery to which Paul refers, there is abundant proof that it was the "coming in flesh of the second creation" of the Son of Man/Son of God, who was Hidden in God from the beginning, but seen as hidden in God, was seen as concealed, kept in secret, until His revealing, until the appointed times of His revealing "to the elect".


There is an appointed time of His revealing to the world, and the Apostle John received that full revelation from beginning to end of it from the view of being caught up to heaven -transported in time- to the time of that revealing to the world, coming in the near future.

But for now, He is being revealed to "the elect" which "elect" are those who choose Him, who choose to live the "elect" life of righteousness in His name.

That revealing to the elect is the New Birth, into "His name".
We are first born into Adam, coming into our human nature of the fallen flesh as multiplied seed of the first of our human race.

The condition of being dead in spirit, in Adam, is the condition of each and every person born in Adam. The only remedy for being made alive in Spirit is to be adopted into the New Man's One Living Spirit, which is the New, or Second Birth, in Spirit now, but in body at the change of our bodies at resurrection [if dead in Christ] or translation, if alive at the time of the gathering to Him of the first harvest of earth's "sons", and we will "Appear with Him in His glory at His Appearing to the world.


But you are right that the Creator had a plan from the beginning, but that plan was made known from the beginning, it was the Son of Man who was Hidden in God, who would be the promised Redeemer, who was proclaimed as the Restorer who would come, in Genesis 3:15.

About His being hidden until the times appointed for His revealing,[first to the elect, then to the world], there is abundant proof that He was the Mystery Hidden, and that the One "Gospel plan" was not hidden, until His "revealing".

But heaven is not lost -where did you ever come up with that idea?
Earth is the quarantined part of creation, shut out, cut off, from the realm of spirit since the death in spiurit of our firstborn in adam, the human son of God "prince" who fell.

The Gospel was not "hidden wisdom", that is not what the passage in 1 Corinthians 2:6,7 says; it is the Person of Christ come in second creation flesh, of whom Paul and the Apostles speak. Paul testified only of the Person of "Jesus Christ" and only because Paul "knew Him" by rebirth could he testify of Him.

 

[eph3Nine]

God is the Almighty God, Possessor of Heaven and Earth.

Satan has usurped BOTH of those realms...you will find this information in a careful STUDY of your bible...and the whole of the Bible from beginning to end is Gods STORY of How He will RE ESTABLISH His rightful rule and reign in both of these realms.

Today, satan is the god of this world...or so says scripture. He also has corrupted heaven, or so says scripture.

Arent you the least bit curious as to what God has said He will do to RESTORE His reign and rule in both of these realms and where YOU fit in?